Help on micro module 2442 and 3 way switches

[brianp6621]

@stusviews

 

That was completely uncalled for.

I am not an electrician and expecting me to open all these boxes and trying to figure what is in there is not a 5 minutes task. Besides if I told you something like "There are 7 wires in there, 4 reds and 3 brown; one red going to a terminal, 3 reds going to another and 3 browns to another" that would have given you the perfect picture, right ... I can bet all my money that your next question would have been to describe the switch then a lot of other related questions. It was simply not worth it.

I have asked for help from somebody who "had experience" in this, somebody who did it before.

 

All I needed was a wiring diagram (which should work everytime in a 3 way circuit) and brianp6621 was very kind to post one. My reply thanking you for your help should have been an indication that I do not wish to follow your idea.

 

@brianp6621

Thank you, you are absolutely right and I didn't see that. I am sure I can sort this out now.

In fairness mfbra is the one that posted the schematic.

 

Hope this all helped.

[stusviews]

There are at least four different ways to cable two 3-way switches and one 4-way switch. Each has a different Insteon solution. For example, in Diagram 1 (above), neither the middle nor the last switch nor the fixture has a line wire. In Diagram 2, none of the switch boxes have a neutral.

 

In both diagrams, the last box has one 2-wire cable and one 3-wire cable, so viewing only that box is insufficient. If everything works as expected, there's no need to go any further. But, the OP indicated that everything is not working as expected.

 

BTW, the schematic is constant, only the cabling varies (i.e., which of the four boxes has the source-both line and neutral).

[epete]

 

Sorry it's mixed English and Portuguese but I'm out and cannot edit, I had a friend facing difficulties with it and created this to help him.

 

Hope it may help. (It follows Brazilian code, and when you see "fase or rede" means load. Neutro is self explaining).

 

 

 

MF_Bra

 

So this requires I find a junction box that has Neutral, Ground, Line, Traveler and load.  It seems to me, I will be missing Load on the first switch and line last switch.  So where does this module get installed where all connections are available? 

[stusviews]

So this requires I find a junction box that has Neutral, Ground, Line, Traveler and load.  It seems to me, I will be missing Load on the first switch and line last switch.  So where does this module get installed where all connections are available? 

 

Where you install the Micro Module depends entirely on your specific wiring. There is no one diagram that fits all situations.

[epete]

Where you install the Micro Module depends entirely on your specific wiring. There is no one diagram that fits all situations.

 

Agreed, however, there is no reason that all of these conductors will be in a switch box.  But I will figure out my specific wiring this weekend.  I suspect I wont be able to have a single Insteon Micro Dimmer on a 3 or 4 way switch and will most likely have to go with one per switch.  I guess I was looking for confirmation that I was thinking correctly.  The diagram posted by MFBra is misleading as it would not be very common.

[jtara92101]

Micromodule needs to be wired to neutral and unswitched line. You connect load wire to the fixture, and the other side of the fixture back to neutral.

 

Sense inputs are seldom used. I think it's silly (IMO) to do this with original 4-way switches and wiring.

 

I have considered, though, using sense inputs to work with an antique-style pushbutton switch, but I have been unable to find a reproduction switch with momentary contact (needed for dimming support) with contacts rated for 120V (they are rated for low voltage, at least the switches I have found).

 

Most of us would replace the 4-way switches with SwitchLincs. They require only neutral and line. You would leave the load wire unused. You can use scenes to make a virtual n-way circuit.

 

If you do not have all of neutral, line, load in any one box, you can probably re-use original traveller wires to make it so. As well, if you do not have neutral and line in each switch box, you can re-use the original traveller wires to make it so.

 

Micromodule is normally installed in either the fixture box or the switch box that directly feeds the fixture box. It is your choice.

 

Document your original wiring so that you can restore the hard-wired 4-way upon sale of residence, etc.

 

I can't imagine how you could make use of multiple micro-dimmers on one load! That is almost certainly the wrong approach, and/or a good way to burn the place down.

 

I currently use micro module only for a closet light that was previously an (outlawed for closets in California) glass globe with pull chain. So I already had line/neutral in the box. I replaced the globe with a flat LED module. I added a Mini Remote on the wall outside of the closet. I do plan on adding micro modules to 6 ceiling cans in the living room that have screw-base LED conversions. They are currently on a single SwitchLinc dimmer, I will change the wiring to send line instead - then I can control level of each can individually. Actually, they are wired as two circuits, and previously were illegally wired to two non-Insteon dimmers where green was borrowed as the second line to get to the box! I decided I would rather lose the functionality of controlling the lamps in two groups, vs. the potential of a future electrician being surprised to find line voltage on green...

 

Keep in mind the 50 watt rating on the micro dimmer. It is more than enough for most LED fixtures. There is a larger/older "mini" dimmer that I think is rated for 300 watts.

[stusviews]

The Micro Dimmer is rated for 100w, the InLine dimmer can handle 400W. Virtually all multi-way configurations can be wired to provide line and neutral in every box. I agree that the best solution is SwitchLincs instead of one Micro Module, but it all depends on the cable routing. There is only one diagram no matter how the cables are routed.

[jtara92101]

The Micro Dimmer is rated for 100w

 

Mea culpa!

 

But, actually, it's "strangely" rated for 100W. 100W at 140V. What country uses 140V lines?!

 

OP is in Australia, and it's rated at 200W at 240V. Australia is nominally 230V so, close to 200W should be plenty for most lighting.

 

I assume the real limit here is current, apx 0.7 A (= 98W at 140V). So for nominal US voltage of 120, 84W.

 

OP never said what his purpose for the micro-module was. I always assume it is an issue of lack of wired switch. But I guess in this case it is because they want to use existing 4-way switches and wiring?

[stusviews]

The 140 is a typo, should be 120. P = IE, so the current at 120VAC is 1.2 amperes which is the same for 200W @ 240VAC. These are only approximations as line voltage in North America is nominally 110/120 and in the rest of the world it's 220/240VAC.

 

I'm not sure that even concerns the OP at this point. Nor is there any indication that the OP is in Australia. There have been may posts since the original.

[epete]

Thanks everyone.  I have a large quantity of unopened SwitchLinks.  I only installed a couple around the house and found my wife does not like the feel of them.  I was trying to figure out a way to just reuse the switches that are already in the house.  My home is now 98% LED so power isn't really a concern.

 

As for burning the house down.  My thought was one would be wired as a transmitter and receiver and connected to neutral, line and load.  The other locations would just be transmitter that would link to the first.  Maybe that isn't possible and I really haven't put enough thought into it.  Anyway, I will wait until the weekend when I can make more time.

[jtara92101]

@stusviews

I live in Australia so we have different wire colours here; I'm afraid that won't help at all.

 

 

But he had me at "colours".

 

Anywhere that spells it that way is likely to be on 220/230/240, unless they say "colours, eh?"

[stusviews]

Thanks everyone.  I have a large quantity of unopened SwitchLinks.  I only installed a couple around the house and found my wife does not like the feel of them.  I was trying to figure out a way to just reuse the switches that are already in the house.  My home is now 98% LED so power isn't really a concern.

 

Need help with a multi-way configuration?

[stusviews]

But he had me at "colours".

 

Anywhere that spells it that way is likely to be on 220/230/240, unless they say "colours, eh?"

 

You are correct, I missed post #6.

[jtara92101]

Thanks everyone.  I have a large quantity of unopened SwitchLinks.  I only installed a couple around the house and found my wife does not like the feel of them.  I was trying to figure out a way to just reuse the switches that are already in the house.  My home is now 98% LED so power isn't really a concern.

 

And, of course, you could also use KeyPadLincs, if you might have some use for extra buttons.

 

You can just wire the fixture from the closest switch location, and save the micro dimmer for another project.

 

Another useful (reversible) wiring change is to change switched outlets to always-on. Then use lamplinc dimmers, either in-wall or plug-in instead, and then you have the flexibility as to placement in the room. The best place to change it is in the switch box - just move the load wire to hot, and leave the outlet split-wired. To reverse, just replace conventional switch and move the load wire back from hot to the switch. 

 

Of course, if you use an in-wall lamplinc, then you'll just cap both ends of the load wire.

 

(In the U.S. it is common to wire the bottom outlet of one duplex outlet in each room to a wall switch - typically with switch at entrance and outlet across the room.)

 

Great thing about switchlincs is that now you not only have 4-way switching, but dimming at every switch location.

[epete]

I am now planning my first 3 way install.

 

I removed both switches to determine where the power was coming in and to try and determine where the light is wired in.

 

I believe I have properly captured the way it is currently configured in the attached file

 

One strange thing I noticed was the power coming in on the left doesn't seem to be wired correctly.  When measuring the voltage between the white and ground, I see 120VAC.  When checking between Black and Ground I don't see anything.  So the White should probably be labeled Hot and the Black should be labeled Neutral.  (Correct?)

 

That would also explain why they connected the White wire (Power Side) to the Black Wire of the 4 wire cable.

 

The light has two 4 wire cables coming in and I am 99% sure it is connected the way I drew it in the diagram.

 

I would like to put a keypad link in the leftmost switch and a REMOTE CONTROL DIMMER SWITCH in the right most swith.

 

I guess the keypad link will get the Neutral, Hot and Ground from the power side, then I can send the same Neutral, Hot and Ground from the power side down to the next outlet on the 4 conductor wire.  I am just not sure how to connect the load onto the Remote Control Dimmer.  The light is connected such that ine end is available at one switch and the other end at the other switch.

[stusviews]

First, it a 3-way configuration wired wrong, then it wont' work.. Second, are you sure that the fixture is connected to two black wires and that no white wire connects to the fixture at all? BTW, the fixture (correctly) has two 3-wire cables. Ground is not counted as a wire.

[epete]

OK, can you confirm that Line should be the wire that reads 120VAC between its conductor and ground?  And that should be the white wire?  Neutral should read nothing between its conductor and ground and should be the black wire?  And finally the voltage between the black and white should also be 120VAC?

 

I find it strange that the builder of my house would have wired it backwards (Neutral on white and Line on black) but that is what I think they did.  

 

I think the easiest way to check where the light is connected is if I remove the bulb and see what wire becomes open circuit.  I can try that today.

 

Finally, I will refer to the cables as 2 wire and 3 wire from this point forward given ground wire is not counted.

 

Thanks

[epete]

I am now totally confused.   I have totally disassembled the light.  There are three 2 conductor cables.

 

Cable 1:Ground all three grounds tied together,  White Cable 1, Cable 3 and Lamp tied together, Black Cable 1 Cable 3 + White of cable 2 Tied Together

Cable 2:Ground all three grounds tied together,  Black Cable 1 Cable 3 + White of cable 2 Tied Together, Black Cable 2 + Red Lamp Tied together

Cable 3:Ground all three grounds tied together,  White Cable 1, Cable 3 and Lamp tied together Black Cable 1 Cable 3 + White of cable 2 Tied Together

Lamp:  White Cable 1, Cable 3 and Lamp tied together, Black Cable 2 + Red Lamp Tied together

 

So maybe power is coming in at the light?  And then feeding into the first switch that I thought was wired wrong?

[epete]

So after looking at it some more I have updated my drawing.  So it looks like Cable 1 and 3 are the power passing through to feed some other area of the house.  Cable 2 then goes to the switches.  So in this case, maybe the micro module would have worked right at the light, but now I want to just use the keypad link and dimmer switch at the other location.

 

Do I need to put a microlink in at the light a keypad for the first switch and a dimmer at the last location, costing me three devices instead of 2.

 

 

**UPDATE**

I have now rewired with a microlink at the lamp, a keypad link upstairs and dimmer link downstairs.  Everything seems to be working electrically.  Now it is time for programming.  It turns out the second diagram posted in this link was correct.

[jeshab]

Yes, describing the how many of each color is often all I need. I have nearly two decades of hands on wiring experience. There's a few ways 4-way switches can be properly wired. When something doesn't work as expected, I won't guess. Here's just two ways:

 

 

 

I am trying to determine if I can use one micro dimmer module to control a light wired exactly as shown in the 4-way switch diagram #1 above.

 

Based on that diagram, my understanding is the micro dimmer should be installed on the last switch, which has the load, but a proper line to power the unit would be missing in that location, making it hard to use a micro dimmer in that type of setup.

 

Is my assumption correct or am I missing something? I understand that I can replace my current switches with SwitchLinc to get this to work but I would like to keep my existing switches for the time being.

[stusviews]

In a multi-way configuration, power can enter at the fixture or any one of the switches. It really matters. In any case, the Micro Module requires all of line, neutral and load.

[stusviews]

Describe the wiring in swtich box, the colors and how they are grouped (e.g., one 2-wire cable, two 3-wire cables, etc.). If possible, indicate which wire in each 3-way switch box was originally connected to the black screw and which were connected to the brass screws. You can disregard any ground wires. Are you using a voltmeter or a voltage indicator?