I/O Linc v.41 and triggering output relay based on sense input

[Broyd]

Hey folks! Heres what I am trying to do ... I bought an Insteon doorbell detector kit and here's the way I want it to work.

 

1. Press the doorbell.

2. The IOLinc senses the doorbell current and sends the sensor ON signal into the power line.

3. Electrically lockout further doorbell press detections for 25 seconds; the actual doorbell can

.   be pressed and sound multiple times during the lockout phase.

 

The way I have this set up is to pass the signal from the ELK detector to the IOLinc sense input

through the NC contacts of the IOLinc output relay.

 

To get this to work, you must configure the IOLinc device OPTIONS as follows:

 

1. Relay Follows Input

2. Trigger Reverse

3. Momentary C

4. Momentary hold time (25.5) seconds 

 

The above configuration works but here is my problem.

 

With Trigger Reverse checked, the IOLinc relay turns on as soon as you release the

doorbell button and remains on for the 25.5 seconds set on the momentary hold time.

 

BUT if you do not have Trigger Reverse checked, the relay will trigger as soon as 

the doorbell is pressed BUT turns off as soon as the doorbell button is released.

It does not remain on for the momentary hold time set for that option.

 

My Question:

 

Is this situation my misunderstanding of the way the IOLinc works or is it a

possibly defective unit?

 

I would like the relay to trigger on and remain on for the momentary contact time

as soon as the doorbell button is pressed rather than when the doorbell button is pressed. 

 

Thanks for any insight you can shed on this

[LeeG]

"Is this situation my misunderstanding of the way the IOLinc works or is it a possibly defective unit?"

 

That is the expected operation of a I/O Linc.  Suggest using an ISY Program to perform the timing of the Relay rather than using Trigger Reverse and Relay Follows Input.

[Broyd]

Thanks LeeG. This seems completely counter intuitive to me ... The only change I make is either checking or unchecking the Trigger Reverse checkbox. 

 

To my way of thinking, this should only affect whether the output relay gets triggered with the ON going transition from the sense input, versus the output relay getting triggered with the OFF going transition from the sense input. NOT to completely change the mode of the IOLinc's operation.

 

The reason I'm doing this is that I'm using the sense signal to send out X-10 ON commands to X-10 chime modules (which I can plug in anywhere) via a ISY program. If someone (and this happens a lot) presses the doorbell multiple times (ya, annoying) this action sends out multiple IOLinc ON/OFF powerline signals  that collide with the X-10 powerline signals being generated by the ISY program.

 

This collision renders these signals corrupted and unrecognized.

[LeeG]

The actions are not the same.  With Trigger Reverse checked the Relay turns On when the button is released.  The button is not being cycled so the Momentary Timeout controls when the Relays turns Off.  With Trigger Reverse unchecked the Relay turns On when the button is pressed.  Now however the button is released which turns Off the Sensor which turns Off the Relay (Relay follows Sense).   

 

Using an ISY Program to control Relay cycle avoids the issues using Relay Follows Sense.

[Broyd]

Thanks LeeG. Its clear I need to do some more thinking and playing around. I also think I am beginning to understand the relationship between button cycling and what the relay state does. I am away tomorrow so I won't be able to clear up my thinking until later.

[Broyd]

So this is my final setup with some explanations ...

 

As I mentioned I am using the Insteon doorbell detect kit which includes an Elk doorbell current sensor.

 

I have wired the kit as shown in the installation instructions with the exception of passing the IOLinc sensor input signal through the normally closed contacts of the IOLinc relay.

 

In this setup, the original doorbell can be rung as many times as required; the doorbell sensor kit installation does not interfere with this function.

 

In the setup options for the IOLinc via the ISY-994i, I have only the following options set:

1. Relay Follows Input checkbox

2. Trigger Reverse checkbox

3. Latching: continuous radio button

 

The reasoning behind these settings is as follows: 

 

1. when the external doorbell button is pressed

.   a. the doorbell sounds the 'ding' sound

.   b. the IOLinc sends the sensor ON signal to the ISY

2. when the external doorbell button is released

.   a. the doorbell sounds the 'dong' sound

.   b. the IOLinc sends the sensor OFF signal to the ISY

.   c. almost instantaneously, the IOLinc relay energizes and any further sensor signals

.       are blocked for a period of time (Relay Follows Input; Trigger Reverse; Latched) 

 

Step 2c is essential to me because I need a 25 second period to send X-10 powerline signals to X-10 chime units (Insteon doesn't make inexpensive flexible plugin chimes; I got my X-10  units on eBay for $9 each). Repeated doorbell button pushes/releases detected by the IOLinc sensor would have generated Insteon powerline signals that would have collided with the X-10 powerline signals and rendered them both corrupted. (The IOLinc is a powerline only device; it does not transmit RF (unfortunately)). So it was necessary to prevent any more IOLinc signals during this time period.

 

When the doorbell button is pressed and then released, I run an ISY program to ring the X-10 chimes a number of times and then de-energize the IOLinc relay. 

 

I tried using an ISY program method to energize the IOLinc relay but there is a significant delay doing it that way ( 1 second+ ). If someone presses the doorbell rapidly a number of times, this causes problems with program execution that I couldn't get around. The instantaneous energizing of the IOLinc relay seems to avoid this. 

 

(I don't know how to insert program code in a post and make it look proper.)

 

 

Why am I doing this you ask? When the people built my house, they installed the doorbell in the finished basement; there are many places where I can't hear the doorbell.

[Teken]

 

Why am I doing this you ask? When the people built my house, they installed the doorbell in the finished basement; there are many places where I can't hear the doorbell.

 

The builder installed the actual door bell chime (ding / dong) module in the basement?? You're not talking about the transformer correct? 

[Broyd]

Unbelievable as it seems, I am talking about the ding/dong unit .... ( and also the transformer). Without ripping open walls it has to stay where it is ... A PITA!

[Teken]

Unbelievable as it seems, I am talking about the ding/dong unit .... ( and also the transformer). Without ripping open walls it has to stay where it is ... A PITA!

 

So, I gather you still had limited access the transformer hence why you were able to connect the I/O Linc to the unit correct?

[LeeG]

Right click on Program name, select last entry in pulldown list, Copy to Clipboard.

 

Paste into post to have Program in post.

 

Is the solution discussed providing the function you need?

[Broyd]

@Teken: Yes, the transformer was located close to the electrical panel with plenty of room around it. I was able to install a separate electrical box to plug in the IOLinc and another cast aluminum box to hold the Elk current sensor.

 

@LeeG: Yes, this setup I wrote about is working well for me. Thanks for your suggestions. It did get me to poke around a lot more that I might have otherwise done.