KPL 2486D with ISY 994I

[jyaeger]

I have an ISY994i with a KPL 2486D (6 button) dimmer in the bedroom and a KPL 2486D (6 button) in the dining room.  It has been working with no issues since it was installed about a year and a half ago.  The ISY is programmed to turn on the bedroom and dining room lights in the morning.  About 2 weeks ago, the bedroom lights failed to turn on in the morning, but the dining room light turned on.

 

From the dining room kpl, I can press the A button which is programmed to turn on all lights and the bedroom and dining room light will come on.

 

From the bedroom kpl, I can press the A button which is programmed to turn on all lights and the bedroom and dining room lights will come on.

 

I have a scene programmed into the ISY to turn the lights on in the morning.  When the scene runs, the lights turn on except for the bedroom light.

 

I have replaced the 2413S plm and removed the 2486D then factory reset it and tried to add it back to the isy. The ISY failed to add the 2486D.

 

I removed the 2486D and wired up power and plugged it in to an outlet near the plm and was able to successfully add the 2486D back into the ISY.  Then I re-programmed all the links and added the device to my scenes and all was good with communications.

 

I then installed the 2486D back in the bedroom.  All buttons programmed work correctly and control other scenes and lights that they are supposed to.  The bedroom light will turn on when one of the buttons are pressed on the 2486D in the bedroom or dining room but will not turn on when instructed to by a scene in the ISY.

 

When doing a query on the bedroom 2486D, I end up with red exclamation points and communications failed message.

 

I was on the latest official firmware for the ISY when this behavior started.  I have since upgraded the firmware to 4.3.10 with the same behavior observed.

 

Any assistance anyone can provide or point me to would be greatly appreciated.

 

Joel

[Brian H]

When you replaced the 2413S PLM. Did you follow the procedure so all the modules have the new PLMs ID in them?

 

http://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=ISY-99i/ISY-26_INSTEON:File_Menu#Replace_Modem_.28PLM.29

[jyaeger]

Brian,  Yes I did follow that procedure.

[Teken]

Perform the 4 tap (Beacon) test from the PLM and observe how that problem KPL behaves and report back the results. Ensure you perform the same test in the reverse order where the KPL is the initiator of the 4 tap (Beacon) test.

[jyaeger]

the beacon test initiated by the plm shows on all devices except the KPL in the bedroom.

 

Pressing the set button on the bedroom KPL 4 times only changed the on and off levels the buttons are set to.  It did not initiate the beacon test.

 

 

Joel

[Teken]

the beacon test initiated by the plm shows on all devices except the KPL in the bedroom.

 

Pressing the set button on the bedroom KPL 4 times only changed the on and off levels the buttons are set to.  It did not initiate the beacon test.

 

 

Joel

 

Hello Joel,

 

You will need to press that little tiny plastic set button *very quickly* use a small flat head precision screw driver.

[jyaeger]

I tried with the precision screwdriver and with my finger.  No matter how fast I pushed the plastic set button, it would not enter beacon mode.

 

Joel

[Teken]

I tried with the precision screwdriver and with my finger.  No matter how fast I pushed the plastic set button, it would not enter beacon mode.

 

Joel

 

Hello Joel,

 

I know this pain but you have to be speedy fast. Grease lightning fast to get that blasted thing to initiate the beacon test.

[stusviews]

The 2486 dimmers are powerline only, so they won't respond to the 4-tap test.

[jyaeger]

I was under the impression that the 2486D were dual band kpl dimmers. 

 

Joel

[Teken]

I was under the impression that the 2486D were dual band kpl dimmers. 

 

Joel

 

Hello Joel,

 

If the part number is correct then Stu is right this device is a power line only device. My humble apologies for not picking up on that since dual band is so pervasive these days.

 

It was just a given at this point in time . . .

 

Please remove the load for the KPL in place and try to control it via the Admin Console and report back.

[jyaeger]

Thanks to everyone who replied.

 

I'm going to have to re-think my KPLs.  I don't understand why they were working for over a year then suddenly not.

I'm also confused as to why the A,B,C,D buttons on each KPL work flawlessly but the ISY Program that turns the scene on or off does not.

 

Also from the ISY clicking turn on in the admin console does not control the bedroom KPL but works for the dining room one.

 

I suspect there is some communications problem across the power lines.  I will investigate further.

 

thanks again for now.

 

Joel

[Teken]

Thanks to everyone who replied.

 

I'm going to have to re-think my KPLs.  I don't understand why they were working for over a year then suddenly not.

I'm also confused as to why the A,B,C,D buttons on each KPL work flawlessly but the ISY Program that turns the scene on or off does not.

 

Also from the ISY clicking turn on in the admin console does not control the bedroom KPL but works for the dining room one.

 

I suspect there is some communications problem across the power lines.  I will investigate further.

 

thanks again for now.

 

Joel

 

Hello Joel,

 

First thing I would check is if the actual device is indeed programmed correctly. Meaning the required links are indeed present in the ISY Series Controller. 

 

You can do a restore device and see if that improves the behavior. If not you can hard reset the KPL and then do a restore device.

 

If both of those do not resolve the issue if you happen to have a portable plugin dual band device please move it on the same phase as the KPL and try the same. You either have a lack of coupling or there is noise makers / signal suckers on the line.

 

Easiest thing to do is remove the bulbs from the KPL which it controls and see the results. Please do check to make sure no new plugin devices are in that room or same circuit like cell chargers etc. No matter what you should not have any sort of computer transformer plugged into the same circuit.

[stusviews]

I'm going to have to re-think my KPLs.  I don't understand why they were working for over a year then suddenly not.

I'm also confused as to why the A,B,C,D buttons on each KPL work flawlessly but the ISY Program that turns the scene on or off does not.

 

Some electronic devices spill more noise on the powerline as they age. Depending on the wiring, the device that the buttons control may be less affected than the ISY. Disconnect/unplug everything else on the same circuit as the problem KPL. Just turning a something off won't work, it must be disconnected. Any improvement?

[Brian H]

The 2486D is not a Dual Band device. Power line only.

There is no four tap/ beacon test.

[jyaeger]

Problem Solved.  By placing a dual band device in the same location as the 2486D was located, I was able to add the device to the ISY and to turn it off and on with the admin console.

 

Issue seems to be in the wiring of my apartment.

 

Near as I can tell after exhaustive trial and error is that almost all the outlets (which includes the KPL Location - Controls an outlet for bedroom lights) are on the same phase of the electric panel.

 

The 2477D I installed works and communicates correctly.

 

I have ordered two Dual Band KPL (6 Button) to replace my two old ones.

 

I want to say thank you to everyone who responded and pointed me in the direction of troubleshooting the power line communications issue.

 

I will be resetting everything in my ISY and rebuilding all scenes and links when the new KPLs arrive.

 

Joel

[stusviews]

Near as I can tell after exhaustive trial and error is that almost all the outlets (which includes the KPL Location - Controls an outlet for bedroom lights) are on the same phase of the electric panel.

 

How did you determine that?

[Teken]

 

I will be resetting everything in my ISY and rebuilding all scenes and links when the new KPLs arrive.

 

Joel

 

Hello Joel,

 

Just a reminder, if you're replacing the same *Type* of Insteon device such as a KPL relay / dimmer. All you need to do is use the replace with option.

 

1. You will first out of best practices hard reset the new hardware. This will ensure all test links, programming, and factory scenes are removed and leaves the unit in a factory state.

 

2. Add the new KPL to the system with a dummy name like New KPL to the ISY Series Controller.

 

3. Hover over the old existing KPL you want to replace and simply select *Replace With* a list on the right should come up. In this case it would be called in my example as *New KPL*.

 

4. Once the system completes the swap the *New KPL* will vanish and the system will close. At that point all of the existing programming, scenes, links, will use the old existing ones you had on hand.

[jyaeger]

Teken,

 

Sounds much easier, I will definitely replace the KPL that way.  Thanks.

 

Stusviews,

 

I checked which outlets and lights turned off when I shut a breaker off.  Each outlet and light in the bedroom was on the same phase of the power panel as the rest of the outlets in the apartment.  The only thing that was different was the dining room (where the isy and plm is located) and the bathroom which had a dual band device in it already.  I had also unplugged everything in the bedroom that was on that circuit and still could not communicate with any power line only device.

 

Once I placed a dual band device in the bedroom all communications to that room were restored.

 

Joel

[stusviews]

Except for paired yoked breakers that control 220/240VAC devices, each breaker controls one circuit. Half of the circuit breakers are on one leg (incorrectly called phase) and half are on the opposite leg of the split, single-phase electric supply.

 

Thus, turning off a breaker doesn't tell you which of the opposite legs the circuit is on.

 

BTW, because the supply is alternating current (AC), each leg is always 180º out-of-phase with the opposite leg (the current is flowing in the opposite direction). A phase-coupler bridges the opposite legs, not phases. The electric supply in virtually all of North America is single-phase

[Teken]

Teken,

 

Sounds much easier, I will definitely replace the KPL that way.  Thanks.

 

 

Joel

 

Hello Joel,

 

As a friendly reminder when installing the new KPL switch / dimmer. Always secure the wiring using linesmen pliers or similar hand tool. Simply relying on the twisting action of the wire nut / Marrette is not the correct method to secure the wiring bundle.

 

Lastly, if your home uses plastic or resin style JB's for the outlets, switches, fixtures. Proper grounding must be followed to insure ground faults are present and detected.

 

Good luck . . .