smokegrub Posted August 18, 2015 Posted August 18, 2015 In an old home (where I was raised) the wiring is very old. The wiring in the kitchen is the newest, but it is more than 60 years old. Currently, a switch there controls the on/hh status of a ceiling fan/light. Pulling the switch reveals a single wire entering the top of the box with one each black and white wires meaning both apparently have to be hot. Is it possible to wire a KPL into this setup? How? Rewiring is not a very realistic option but it could be done. I want to use the KPL to control the llght/fan using a FanLinc.
chrishick Posted August 18, 2015 Posted August 18, 2015 That is a switch leg. Both are hot. I know they make a dimmer for use without a neutral but not sure about a KPL
Teken Posted August 18, 2015 Posted August 18, 2015 This doesn't really answer your question you posed but some installs where wiring was not possible. I used a double switch plate changed the old toggle switch to a standard decora. Added in a micro relay / dimmer at the light fixture then on the spare plate hole used a 8 button remote link. This *appearance* wise gave the look of two decora switches and also allowed control of extra Insteon enabled loads. The only down side was no real time status etc. But it was a good compromise of wiring and having the same control etc.
stusviews Posted August 18, 2015 Posted August 18, 2015 That's standard wiring. What you have is called a switch-loop. The line is white and the load wire is black. That's done in order to prevent wiring the fixture to two white wires. Back to your question. The answer is yes, but you'll need two devices, one to take the place of the switch (e.g., SwitchLinc, Keypad) and one to install in the fixture, such as a Micro Module or In-LineLinc. What you install in the fixture depends on the load. Remove the fixture. You'll probably find one or more black wires (line) connected to the white wire going to the switch. Reconnect the wires going to the switch so that white is neutral and black is line. Cap the load wire of whatever you decide to install in the wall box. Install the fixture module and create a scene with the wall device as a controller of the fixture device.
smokegrub Posted August 18, 2015 Author Posted August 18, 2015 I am not a knowledgeable electrician but I think I understand what you are saying, Teken. But, without real time status reporting from the KPL I lose much of what I want. This switch is 325 miles from my primary residence and is not visited during the winter.
chrishick Posted August 18, 2015 Posted August 18, 2015 Remove the fixture. You'll probably find one or more black wires (line) connected to the white wire going to the switch. Reconnect the wires going to the switch so that white is neutral and black is line. Perfect solution, I never thought of that. Duh.
chrishick Posted August 18, 2015 Posted August 18, 2015 Just disconnect the white wire from the switch at the fan junction box and connect it to the neutral line. You will not be able to control a physical load with the KPL but you can still control the light and the fan speeds through the FanLinc.
stusviews Posted August 18, 2015 Posted August 18, 2015 Modified for KPL and FanLinc: Remove the fixture. You'll probably find one or more black wires (line) connected to the white wire going to the switch. Reconnect the wires going to the switch so that white is neutral and black is line. Connect the KPL to line and neutral and cap the load wire. Install the FanLinc in the canopy and create five scenes, one for the light, three for the fan speeds and one for fan off.
smokegrub Posted August 18, 2015 Author Posted August 18, 2015 "You will not be able to control a physical load with the KPL but you can still control the light and the fan speeds through the FanLinc." Pardon my lack of knowledge on the subject but the KPL has 8 buttons , one will be used for the fan light and 3 for fan speed control. That leaves 4 buttons. I plan to use one to enable/disable hidden door sensors, one to enable/disable a SynchroLinc that provides information about when a well pump turns On/Off (only used when we are away from the locxation) and one that will reserved for some other purpose. Will I be able to do that with the suggested wiring modification? The statement, in quotes, is the reason I ask the question.
Teken Posted August 18, 2015 Posted August 18, 2015 "You will not be able to control a physical load with the KPL but you can still control the light and the fan speeds through the FanLinc." Pardon my lack of knowledge on the subject but the KPL has 8 buttons , one will be used for the fan light and 3 for fan speed control. That leaves 4 buttons. I plan to use one to enable/disable hidden door sensors, one to enable/disable a SynchroLinc that provides information about when a well pump turns On/Off (only used when we are away from the locxation) and one that will reserved for some other purpose. Will I be able to do that with the suggested wiring modification? The statement, in quotes, is the reason I ask the question. Yes, you can . . . Could you explain how you're going to disable door sensor? Do you mean disable the ISY Program?
MWareman Posted August 18, 2015 Posted August 18, 2015 (edited) the KPL has 8 buttons I use a 6 button KPL - top and bottom are the light on/off and the middle 4 represent fan speeds off, low, medium and high. Edited August 18, 2015 by MWareman
stusviews Posted August 18, 2015 Posted August 18, 2015 "You will not be able to control a physical load with the KPL but you can still control the light and the fan speeds through the FanLinc." Pardon my lack of knowledge on the subject but the KPL has 8 buttons , one will be used for the fan light and 3 for fan speed control. That leaves 4 buttons. I plan to use one to enable/disable hidden door sensors, one to enable/disable a SynchroLinc that provides information about when a well pump turns On/Off (only used when we are away from the locxation) and one that will reserved for some other purpose. Will I be able to do that with the suggested wiring modification? The statement, in quotes, is the reason I ask the question. Once you provide line and neutral to the KPL and cap the load (red) wire, you can use the buttons for whatever you want.
smokegrub Posted August 18, 2015 Author Posted August 18, 2015 Once you provide line and neutral to the KPL and cap the load (red) wire, you can use the buttons for whatever you want. That's what I was hp\oping to hear! Thanks!
smokegrub Posted August 19, 2015 Author Posted August 19, 2015 I apologize for having difficulty with this, but I do not yet understand what is suggested. I have two hot wires coming into the switch. From there two hot wires go to the ceiling fan. From that point I get lost. The illustration offered earlier confuses me because it shows power on the side of the fan away from the switch and there is no power there. Then there is mention of a neutral returning to the switch/KPL! A schematic would be very helpful. I showed this thread to a man who does basic wiring (switches, etc.) and he couldn't understand it. Thanks for your help.
hart2hart Posted August 19, 2015 Posted August 19, 2015 (edited) You are missing the fact that you will need to install micro modules and/or fanlinc in the electrical box above the ceiling fan. The KPL will control them via insteon scenes created between KPL and devices instead of via a load wire You'll be able to control other insteon devices with other 4 buttons using similar method of scene or programs. Edited August 19, 2015 by hart2hart
stusviews Posted August 19, 2015 Posted August 19, 2015 (edited) Describe the wires at the ceiling box. You can disregard any ground wires. Edit: If you have a FanLinc, then you do not need a Micro Module. Edited August 19, 2015 by stusviews
smokegrub Posted August 19, 2015 Author Posted August 19, 2015 I have experience with the FanLinc and have had one installed and in operation for two years. I have one awaiting installation in the fan I have been talking about. The plan is an 8-button KPL replacing the stndard wall switch and a FanLinc installed inside the fan housing. You are missing the fact that you will need to install micro modules and/or fanlinc in the electrical box above the ceiling fan. The KPL will control them via insteon scenes created between KPL and devices instead of via a load wireYou'll be able to control other insteon devices with other 4 buttons using similar method of scene or programs.
smokegrub Posted August 19, 2015 Author Posted August 19, 2015 I will open the fan housing tomorrow and send photos of the wiring. Thanks to all for your patience and help. Describe the wires at the ceiling box. You can disregard any ground wires. Edit: If you have a FanLinc, then you do not need a Micro Module.
stusviews Posted August 19, 2015 Posted August 19, 2015 Photos of wiring are good. An accompanying description including wire colors is even better. Do not disconnect anything except the existing fixture (or fan/light) if needed. BTW, your wiring is standard. It will not be difficult to provide explicit instructions.
giesen Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 I myself just rewired the same thing (for a switched lamp outlet) in my 1950's house. Wasn't fun but I wanted a dual band insteon dimmer that supports LEDs (the RF-only 2-wire dimmer doesn't). Current construction now always pulls a neutral and caps it for this reason. And if they don't, they should be shot. I have at least 4 more of these to do in my house, most in far more inaccessible locations (this one *only* required 4 holes in the drywall - and it was the relatively easy one)
smokegrub Posted August 20, 2015 Author Posted August 20, 2015 Here are attached files for the wall switch and for the wiring under the fan cowling.
stusviews Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 The switch is easy, but the image does not clearly show each individual wire coming from the ceiling box. In fact, the ceiling box is not shown at all. Describe the wires including the colors.
chrishick Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 The wiring under the fan cowling is irrelevant. It looks like that is a photo of the lower part of the fan between the motor and the light kit. That is part of the wiring for the fan motor and light and has nothing to do with the house wiring. You need to drop the entire fan and look at the wiring in the junction box located above the fan in the ceiling. Hopefully there are only 4 wires in the J box, 2 black and 2 white. If there are more wires then things get much more complicated.
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