I/O Linc with a Septic Sump-Guard?

[GDavis01]

I have recently purchased a vacation home which currently has a sump guard installed as part of the septic system (there is a holding tank at the back of the house which works on gravity; once the tank reaches a certain level the pump activates and pushes the fluid up through the pipes to the actual septic tank which is 200 feet above. The sump-guard alerts when there is a high liquid level within the holding tank).

 

The sump guard is installed outside, but inside an enclosure, at the rear of the house. It monitors the level in the septic holding tank. 

 

My issue is that I would like to be notified if the alarm goes off . The current alarm is not, in my opinion, very loud (most likely because its at the back of the house and inside the enclosure). Furthermore since I am only there periodically I would like to be notified remotely if there is a problem.

 

I am thinking that I should be able to connect an IO Linc low voltage unit to the sump guard, which would allow my system to send me an email/text when the alarm is triggered. I have not tried taking apart the sump guard unit but does it make sense that I should be able to simply connect the sense wires to the same connection as the alarm horn/buzzer? Would this generally be a low-voltage connection? 

 

 

 

 

 

[paulbates]

Hi

Can you provide a link to the manual/pdf and any tech specs? What you're suggesting is plausible, but its not possible to provide suggestions without technical specifications of some kind.

 

Paul

[LeeG]

My pump up septic system high level float uses 120v so be sure what your system uses before connecting to an I/O Linc. 

[Teken]

I would think if this device operates on standard 110/120 VAC you could simply use the Synchro Linc. This device can measure and monitor when something comes on / off. Using this device would allow you to know exactly when its activated and thus send out a e-mail to you.

 

http://www.smarthome.com/synchrolinc-insteon-2423a5-power-synching-controller.html

[GDavis01]

Attached is a pdf file for the sump-guard unit. Unfortunately there isn't a lot of information provided. I have sent an email to the manufacturer asking for more details, but I haven't received a reply yet.

 

Teken... your suggestion to consider the Synchro Linc is an interesting one. I understand how the unit works with a TV but would it work with this type of unit too? I would think (and perhaps incorrectly!) that this unit would be 'always on' monitoring the water level and when the float triggers an issue some level of voltage is sent to the horn/buzzer... 

 

LeeG... as you can see form the attached pdf the system runs on 120v... does this follow that the signal to the horn/buzzer is also at that voltage?

[GDavis01]

Here is the attachment (I think!)

 

P500-1.pdf

[paulbates]

It looks like you'd need to be handy with electronics to tackle this inside the cover. Does the warning light only come on when its in the state you're looking for? If so, I wonder what its voltage is?

 

Paul 

[Teken]

Teken... your suggestion to consider the Synchro Linc is an interesting one. I understand how the unit works with a TV but would it work with this type of unit too? I would think (and perhaps incorrectly!) that this unit would be 'always on' monitoring the water level and when the float triggers an issue some level of voltage is sent to the horn/buzzer...

 

Please correct me if I am wrong you wish to only know if the alarm / buzzer sounds off because the high level has been reached, correct?

 

If so then the first thing I would do is measure and see what this siren outputs and upgrade the siren or place one in parallel and extend the wires so it can be heard when you're local to the vacation home. I do believe the Synchrolinc would also provide the alert notification you're looking for.

 

As the device simply monitors (which you set for low / high) conditions and reacts. As you indicated the device is supposed to be linked to some kind of device in your situation you can do it like I have or vary the deployment.

 

1. Link the Synchrolink to a dedicated light / lamp linc / relay module.

 

2. Link it to a I/O Linc and do the whole Buzz Linc which Stu has provided way back in the day.

 

 

3. Of course the two above are solely for visual alerts when on site. You simply need to create a state variable to track the ON condition of the Synchrolinc as another method to track when this device was turned on etc because the ISY will track this event with a nice time stamp.

 

When the variable changes to (1) indicating on it will be linked to a custom alert e-mail of your choosing.

[LeeG]

As was noted, nothing in the attached document covers the internal workings.  The float looks like mine and is likely 120v as the type of switch that covers 120v AC as well as low voltage DC (needed for I/O Linc) would be unusual.  Those floats can control 120v pumps directly.  No reason for the manufacturer to make that investment in the float switch.  The light and buzzer power is not known based on the document.

[stusviews]

In all likelihood, the alarm is 120VAC. In all likelihood, the alarm does not draw enough current to trigger a SynchroLinc, but it may. The only way to tell is to use and ammeter or test a SynchroLinc.

 

If the alarm is, in fact, line voltage, than a Micro Module is the appropriate device. There a good chance that a Micro Module will fit inside the enclosure. You may lose the RF capability if the enclosure is metal.

[GDavis01]

Thanks for the replies... it appears that the IO Linc low voltage unit is not a workable solution and that the SynchroLinc is only a possibility!

 

I am not familiar with the Micro Modules... am I correct Stu that you are suggesting the INSTEON 2443-222 MICRO ON/OFF MODULE?

 

 

 

You may lose the RF capability if the enclosure is metal.

Does this mean that the RF signals would be completely lost or significantly reduced? I would plan to have a dual band Switchlinc dimmer switch within 15-20 feet of the sump guard, although the switch would be inside, and the sump guard is outside and enclosed in a wooden structure.

 

Given that the module is dual band is it fair to say that I should be able to rely on the power line communications if the RF signal is not sufficient?

 

I know that I cannot provide the layout of the sump guard's electronics at this time, but conceptually how would you suggest I connect this Micro Module? (I have been unsuccessful in finding a schematic so far... next weekend I will open up the box and take a few pictures)

[Brian H]

You maybe able to use the CT800 current sensor mentioned in this article. To trigger a I/OLinc.

If the 120 volt sounder draws through current to trigger is dry contact output.

The sensitivity can be lowered to .25 amps if you loop the load wire through the sensor two times. According to the users sheets.

http://cocoontech.com/forums/topic/11423-how-to-monitor-the-status-of-your-washerdryerfurnace/

 

http://www.mamacsys.com/ct_800_805_810_815_features.html

[Brian H]

If you played with the values of the resistor shown in this article.

You maybe able to use the I/OLinc sensor voltage to trigger when the alarm light goes on the photocell taped to it.

 

http://cocoontech.com/forums/page/articles/_/tutorials/home-automation-tutorials/how-to-monitor-the-status-of-a-device-using-its-status-light-r37

[stusviews]

Without knowing what's inside the "box," any solution is a guess. If the enclosure is metal, then you may lose all RF capability, but Insteon powerline devices had been around for years without RF. Some devices are still powerline only. Not to worry

[GDavis01]

Brian... Thanks. I like the photocell idea.

 

I quickly tried the concept with an unused photocell I had hanging around, from a low voltage landscaping transformer, and one of my I/OLincs from my garage. Using a flashlight I was able to set the Sensor to ON. As long as the flashlight was aimed at the photocell the sensor was ON and as soon as I turned the flashlight off the sensor went to OFF. The question is, I think, will the warning light from the sump-guard provide enough light to trigger a consistent ON for the sensor. I guess I will only find out by trying.

 

With respect to the use of a resistor in the attached link, you provided, what is he attaching the voltmeter to when measuring his 5VDC when the washer was off or how should I measure the VDC's to determine if I need to use a resistor?

[Brian H]

Across the The Sensor input and Ground is around 5 volts from an internal circuit and where you would connect the photocell and resistor combination. No external voltage should be needed.

 

My tests on early I/OLinc's showed they would detect an On at lower than about 1 volt and a resistance to pull it that low was around 800 Ohms.

 

The resistor in parallel may make the Sensor LED glow as it is part of the internal circuit directly on the Sensor Terminal.

Just try and verify the dark voltage is as high above 1 volt as possible and well below 1 volt with it being illuminated.

[GDavis01]

Brian... Thank you. I will try this next weekend when I am at the vacation home.

[giesen]

Given that the module is dual band is it fair to say that I should be able to rely on the power line communications if the RF signal is not sufficient?

In my house (like almost all houses up here in Canuckistan) the boxes are metal and yet my admittedly small Insteon deployment (7 devices) has been virtually flawless in terms of reliability. The only module I ever had issues with was an outdoor plugin module that was used for my Christmas lights (and that appears to be because of a faulty GFCI receptacle).

[paulbates]

 

... The only module I ever had issues with was an outdoor plugin module that was used for my Christmas lights (and that appears to be because of a faulty GFCI receptacle).

 

GFICs have a reputation for being noise blocks to Insteon signals. I have some that are fine, but one that had to be replaced because it made singal noise.

[JSchumann]

I installed a radio shack relay http://www.radioshack.com/125v-ac-10a-dpdt-relay/2750044.html with mounting base http://www.radioshack.com/socket-for-10-amp-plug-in-relay/2750220.html on the box and wired the coil to the alarm light.  Use the contacts as A or C and connected to ELKM1G alarm panel and use ISY to monitor.  If no ELK you can use http://www.smarthome.com/i-o-linc-insteon-2450-low-voltage-contact-closure-interface-1-in-1-out.html to connect the output of the relay.  I didn't use Synchro Link because if it fails you have no local or remote alarm.

[giesen]

GFICs have a reputation for being noise blocks to Insteon signals. I have some that are fine, but one that had to be replaced because it made singal noise.

This one had definitely failed because it refused to reset. I replaced it and everything worked fine after that.

[GDavis01]

I'm back at my vacation home and I just tried the photocell on the sump-guard warning light... Using black electric tape, I placed the photocell over the warning light and the other end to an IO Linc. The sensor didn't go to ON when I switched on the test button! 

 

The Sensor Status Light turned green when the test button was switched on, and remained unlit when the test button was off. This is what I expect should happen.

 

I connected an Outdoor On/Off Module to the IO Linc to verify that the communications were working. Using Mobilinc on my phone I was able to turn the Outdoor module ON and OFF, meaning that communications to the IO LInc are okay.

 

I measured the voltage: when the Sensor Status Light was OFF --> 4.1vdc;  when the Sensor Status Light was ON --> 2.25vdc. Does this mean that I need to install a resistor in parallel with the photocell? If so what type / size resistor? Any other thoughts?

[Teken]

Given the low voltage you indicated above I would think it would be enough to trip the I/O Linc safely. Using a photo cell unless properly fined tuned and balanced to pick up the LED light may prove a hit or miss affair. 

[stusviews]

Micro Module inside the case. Nothing is as dependable as wired.

[LeeG]

GMD99

 

The I/O Linc Sensor is designed to turn On with GND applied to Sensor.  When GND is removed (when external switch opens) an internal pullup resister applies 5V DC to Sensor which insures Sensor turns Off.  However you wire it the Sensor must have GND or something very close to GND to have Sensor turn On.  The 2.25v DC is not GND so some adjustment is required.