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Issue with device responding to scene oppositely


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I have a scene called "ALL DOWNSTAIRS OFF" which will turn all lights on my first floor in my house off when I go to bed. This scene is controlled by a single keypad button near my master bedroom. 


I haven't made any changes to any configuration in a while, and my routine is the same every night. 


Tonight, I hit the button as usual, and all the lights in my house turned off as expected except for one light. I have a workbench light in my garage connected to an Outdoor On/Off module. The status of this was OFF at the time I hit the "ALL DOWNSTAIRS OFF" scene. As soon as I hit this scene, the workbench light TURNED ON!


It responded in exactly the opposite manner in which the device has been setup in the scene for. I cannot reproduce this issue at all. I've been doing this for years, yet it decided to respond oppositely this one instance. This drive me nuts because I need the piece of mind that all my switches are responding in a reliable manner. I'm lucky I noticed this on my surveillance system that the light was on, but it got me wondering, if this just happened, how many times could this happen again with something else? If it is programmed to respond a certain way I NEED IT TO RESPOND THAT WAY. :) 


Anybody know the cause of something like this?


The "ALL DOWNSTAIRS OFF" scene has about 50 responders. Out of these 50 responders, 3 of them are keypads that have a button on them called "ALL OFF" which I have setup to respond ON, so that I can look at the keypad and see that all the lights are off. Besides these three buttons, everything else responds OFF. 


Could there be some type of collision issue, in which the Outdoor On/Off module mistakenly responded to the ON command to one of those three keypads?



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GremLincs. They usually travel in groups of two, thus dual-band GremLincs. Also, a device can't respond to the state of a KPL button unless the button is pushed or the status of the button is a program trigger.

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The KPL button that was pressed to affect approx 50 devices, the Scene must have been turned On for it to turn some other KPL buttons On. That means the Responder link record in the Outdoor On/Off module must have a 0% On Level for a Scene On to cause the Outdoor On/Off module Off.


When the KPL button is pressed the KPL sends a Group Broadcast that has the Scene number as well as the On command. Unless comm is poor (could be going to garage ?) all Responders should react at the same time. Following the Group Broadcast message the KPL sends a Group Cleanup Direct message to each Responder. This command is ACKed by the Responder and will be retried by KPL if an ACK is not received.


For the Outdoor On/Off module to turn On (or maybe it was On and failed to receive the multiple On messages with a 0% On Level Responder link record) multiple Insteon messages would have to fail. The theory that the Outdoor On/Off module reacted by turning On when it should have turned Off is very unlikely. Too many Insteon commands would have to produce the wrong/opposite result.


I would look into some other type of problem.

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Yes LeeG that is correct, the scene was technically turned ON, but the scene is setup so the ON LEVEL of all the devices is 0%. 


Would you suppose that the group broadcast message was received by the outdoor on/off module, but the 0% ON LEVEL was not received by the module, so it simply turned on?


Checking video surveillance shows that all the responders turned off at exactly the same time, and the exact same time as the outdoor on/off module turned ON. 

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The 0% Responder On Level is stored in the Responder link record (starts with A2) in the Outdoor On/Off module.   That value is set in the device link record when the Scene is created.  That value is not part of any command associated with turning the Scene On (and device Off).


A2 xx aa.bb.cc 00 1F 01 -where


A2 indicates Responder link record

xx is KPL button/Scene number

aa.bb.cc is KPL Insteon address

00 is 0% On Level

1F is 0.1 Ramp Rate

01 is Responder group number


See link 4 for actual example


Check the Outdoor On/Off module link database


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  • 5 months later...

So this issue happened again last night. I came home around 11:40PM and then hit the "All Off" button on my keypad. All my lights turned off, except this Outdoor on/off module turned ON. I've run the same scenario every day for the past 6 months, and it only happened this one time. 


Here is the link table for that device: http://screencast.com/t/8KebIzIT9


There is also a keypad next to the on/off module that controls/responds to the outdoor module. That keypad button light was not ON, even though the outdoor module was ON. Because of this, I believe the scene would not have been activated, otherwise both the keypad button would be ON and the outdoor module would have been ON. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Thanks Techman, this was the first thing that came to my mind so I did do this. Few days later after doing a restore, it ramdomly responded oppositely again. 

The only thing I could think to make this happen is a burned out memory bit in the device in question.


To prove this, you could  try...

-remove the device from the scene causing the problem.

-create a new dummy scene

-add the device in question into the dummy scene

-add the device back into the scene in question

-never use the dummy scene


This may occupy the defective memory space in the device with the dummy scene  link. Then the used scene would occupy a new byte or memory location.


It would be worth the experiment and the warning that your device's eeprom memory is failing and shopping time.

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The image in post #6 was not helpful.  That is the ISY Links Table display.   What is needed is a Tools | Diagnostics | Show Device Links Table when the module has turned On when receiving the Scene On command.   


Also need Insteon address of KPL and which button is pressed.

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