Thinking about getting a whole house surge protector

baabm · September 8, 2015

I have been using insteon and ISY-994i for several years, most recently in a home in Tampa, FL. While we were away this summer, several large storms kept knocking circuit breakers off line and I lost (as a minimum) the PLM that works with the ISY, so when I came home, nothing worked. I replaced the PLM and am still troubleshooting other devices but i am thinking about having a whole house surge protector installed in the main junction box. Does anyone have any thoughts on the effectiveness of this to prevent future loss of equipment or on any detrimental effect it may have on my home automation system (for the most part, I have fairly new dual band devices).

Thanks

evilpete · September 8, 2015

I have one at my main panel, seems to work ( if nothing goes wrong, its working ).

Although, electrically you get better protection with a distributed systems (eg : protected power strips everywhere )

larryllix · September 8, 2015

I have been using insteon and ISY-994i for several years, most recently in a home in Tampa, FL. While we were away this summer, several large storms kept knocking circuit breakers off line and I lost (as a minimum) the PLM that works with the ISY, so when I came home, nothing worked. I replaced the PLM and am still troubleshooting other devices but i am thinking about having a whole house surge protector installed in the main junction box. Does anyone have any thoughts on the effectiveness of this to prevent future loss of equipment or on any detrimental effect it may have on my home automation system (for the most part, I have fairly new dual band devices).

Thanks

Some analysis really needs to be done to determine where the disturbance came into the house and where it went out. Surge protectors cannot typically protect against surges. All sounds like terminology but most are just spike clippers and mislabelled. It is not likely you could protect your self from surge on the grid without tens of thousands of dollars worth of isolation transformers and UPS equipment.

However you can stop some of the high voltage glitches that typically don't come in on the grid supply. They come in as differences of potential across different sources eg. Phone cable to grid, cable TV to phone cable, TV antenna to ground.

Your PLM is hooked between one circuit on your electrical distribution panel to your ISY to possibly another distribution panel circuit and to your LAN to your router on another. This suggests it may have come in on your ISP signal source and out the electrical grid or vice versa. Good grounding techniques in the house can alleviate these problems somewhat if it isn't a major disturbance.

If you are not electrically based with experience you probably should get somebody that works in the field to looks at what happened and suggest remedies. You may have a badly bonded neutral, poor house ground , a TV antenna that is not protected and brings in the lightning shocks, etc. and may be easy to solve.

The trouble with all this is it is still "best shot". An educated expert takes their best shot and you will never know if it worked until it never happens again. You can wait forever unfortunately.

If breakers are tripping during storms then you have a larger problem that needs to be solved first with possibly your grid input to your house. call your utility and tell them what happened and try to get them out to check your street transformer grounding. You may need an electrician to check/prove your grounding for your service.

You must also have some bad wiring before or after the breaker trips where the lightning spikes were/are leaking/breaking through your wiring insulation now. These circuit need to be scrutinised visually and/or with equipment to test for leakage. (Meggar is the brand name term classically used) You may have hidden damage to wiring.

All the best. It can be a tough one.

paulbates · September 8, 2015

I have the ancestor to this intermatic unit from home depot, its been in service for 14 years. I attribute the few insteon/x10/electronic losses I've had to this unit.

The difference between the two units is the amount of coverage insurance you get, $10k for 5 years vs $7.5k for 3 years.

I would always have one of these. There are a number of brands, types and models that you should investigate. This, at a minimum, works well.

Paul

jerlands · September 8, 2015

Whole house surge suppression is widely recommended by professionals for protection of electronics (even by "this old house":) Years ago I installed a Leviton 51120-3R but really can't testify to it's effectiveness cause you just don't see it (unless it had remedied a preexisting condition.) It silently does it's thing without any feedback that you can witness. Google it and for reviews might provide more info..

Jon...

Teken · September 8, 2015

The following devices protect my home from surge events:

Type 1: http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/SectionDisplay.jsp?section=39659&minisite=10251

Type 2: http://sycomsurge.com/products/SYC_120_240_T2-4-3.html

Type 3: http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ProductDetail.jsp?partnumber=7280-W&section=39994&minisite=10251

Type 3: http://www.panamax.com/Products/In-Wall/MIW-SURGE-1G.php

Type 3: http://www.panamax.com/Products/Floor-Models/MFP-300.php

Type 3: http://www.tripplite.com/isobar-8-outlet-surge-protector-12-ft-cord-3840-joules~ISOBAR8ULTRA/

Type 3: http://www.tripplite.com/surge-protector-isobar-2-outlets-direct-plug-in-1410-joule-black~ULTRABLOK/

Isolation Transformer: http://www.tripplite.com/isolator-series-120v-1000w-isolation-transformer-based-power-conditioner-4-outlets~IS1000/

Regulated AVR: http://www.tripplite.com/line-conditioner-2400w-avr-system-automatic-voltage-regulator-power-conditioner-ac-surge-protector~LC2400/

APC Whole House Symmetra 120/240 VAC: http://www.apc.com/products/family/index.cfm?id=189

It should be noted the Panamax SPD's use a licensed proprietary hardware feature which is called *Protect or Disconnect*. Unlike other MOV, SAD, Diode, etc. There is nothing sacrificial with in the device so there is nothing to burn up or break down.

As I have mentioned many times in this forum and others surge protection must be staged and applied in a tiered fashion. No amount of surge protection will protect your home or electronics from a low voltage / high voltage condition, none.

No surge protector will protect you from a frequency drift unless designed to do so.

No surge protector will protect you from in band surges most commonly found generated within the home: Fridge, Sump, HVAC, etc. This is why point of use Type 3 SPD's must be used because there are more micro surges caused by in band devices than what comes from the outside.

Regardless of all the tech, bells and whistles, no amount of surge protection will protect your home from over the air EMI from a lightning strike which causes induction into the wire.

As stated by others above proper grounding and a low resistance ground is the primary method to shunt to ground any surge faults. Besides using all of the above gizmo's you really need to have good home owners insurance to cover your home and its appliances etc.

This is the only thing that will make you whole as you will often times find the so called lifetime warranty isn't worth the paper its printed on.

Lastly, almost every manufacture has specific requirements to put in force their warranty coverage. Do not gloss this over or fail to read the *small print* etc.

baabm · September 9, 2015

Thanks everyone. There's a lot of info in your replies that I'll have to think about before I act.

Teken · September 9, 2015

Thanks everyone. There's a lot of info in your replies that I'll have to think about before I act.

Please keep in mind if finances are not readily available for such hardware. Two of the easiest things to do is leave items not regularly used unplugged.

Next, assuming the home is wired appropriately is to switch off breakers.

If the above are not possible solutions for you. Then installing one or more of the SPD's are a good solution.

As indicated above using a UPS system provides back up power but does not automatically mean it will provide frequency regulation. Most lower cost UPS also provide modified sine wave and not a pure sine wave as seen from the POCO.

Also it should be noted many SPD's have a huge voltage range before they step in. That can exceed 85 VAC to 170 VAC.

Most electronics however are designed to operate in this range without much issue. Depending upon what the appliance is sometimes there can be issues with low voltage conditions.

When devices need steady state power a AVR system should be used.

Ideals are peaceful - History is violent

westom · September 12, 2015

Thanks everyone. There's a lot of info in your replies that I'll have to think about before I act.

Much information is correct only if numbers are ignored. For example, where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? Protection means an answer exists. A 'whole house' protector is a standard solution in all facilities that cannot have damage because it connects low impedance (ie less than 10 feet) to a single point earth ground.

Best protection for cable connected appliances is a wire from that incoming coax cable low impedance (ie hardwire has no sharp bends) to single point earth ground. No protector required. Earthing must be where that wire enters the building. What always defines protection? What harmlessly absorbs those joules? Single point earth ground.

Telco already has that protection installed for free (as long required by code). Since phone lines cannot be hardwired to earth ground, then that 'installed for free' protector does what a hardwire does better; a low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to that single point earthing.

If any wire enters without first connecting to earth (hardwired or via a 'whole house' protector) then protection has been compromised. The only incoming wires not required to have that proven solution is AC electric. A direct ligthing strike to wires far down the street is a direct strike to every household appliance. Protection means that current must not be inside the house. Since even near zero protectors (listed by another as Type 3) need that protection - to even avert a house fire.

Panamax, Tripplite, et al do not claim to protect from destructive surges. Being adjacent to an appliance, it must somehow block or absorb a surge. How does a 2 cm part block what three miles of sky could not? How many asked such damming questions. How do its hundreds or thousand joules absorb a surge that is hundreds of thousands of joules? Again, why do so many ignore numbers?

First, no effective protector fails (is damaged) due to a direct lightning strike. Lightning is typically 20,000 amps. So a minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. That defines life expectancy over many surges.

Second, protection from each surge is defined by what absorbs energy - single point earth ground. All four words have electrical significance. To upgrade protection, upgrade what provides the protection - earth ground. Earthing as defined by the National Electrical Code is insufficient. Your earth ground must both meet and exceed code requirements. An AC utility demonstrates good, bad, and ugly (preferred, wrong, and right) solutions:

http://www.duke-energy.com/indiana-business/products/power-quality/tech-tip-08.asp

We have only discussed your 'secondary' protection layer. Each layer of protection is only defined by what absorbs energy (which is why type 3 protectors do not claim to protect from typically destructive types of surges). Also inspect your 'primary' protection layer. A picture demonstrates what to inspect:

http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

Protection is always defined by what harmless absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules. Useful recommendation always provide perspective - numbers. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground - which negates many previously recommended (and obscenely overpriced) recommendations.

Teken · September 12, 2015

Much information is correct only if numbers are ignored. For example, where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? Protection means an answer exists. A 'whole house' protector is a standard solution in all facilities that cannot have damage because it connects low impedance (ie less than 10 feet) to a single point earth ground.

Best protection for cable connected appliances is a wire from that incoming coax cable low impedance (ie hardwire has no sharp bends) to single point earth ground. No protector required. Earthing must be where that wire enters the building. What always defines protection? What harmlessly absorbs those joules? Single point earth ground.

Telco already has that protection installed for free (as long required by code). Since phone lines cannot be hardwired to earth ground, then that 'installed for free' protector does what a hardwire does better; a low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to that single point earthing.

If any wire enters without first connecting to earth (hardwired or via a 'whole house' protector) then protection has been compromised. The only incoming wires not required to have that proven solution is AC electric. A direct ligthing strike to wires far down the street is a direct strike to every household appliance. Protection means that current must not be inside the house. Since even near zero protectors (listed by another as Type 3) need that protection - to even avert a house fire.

Panamax, Tripplite, et al do not claim to protect from destructive surges. Being adjacent to an appliance, it must somehow block or absorb a surge. How does a 2 cm part block what three miles of sky could not? How many asked such damming questions. How do its hundreds or thousand joules absorb a surge that is hundreds of thousands of joules? Again, why do so many ignore numbers?

First, no effective protector fails (is damaged) due to a direct lightning strike. Lightning is typically 20,000 amps. So a minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. That defines life expectancy over many surges.

Second, protection from each surge is defined by what absorbs energy - single point earth ground. All four words have electrical significance. To upgrade protection, upgrade what provides the protection - earth ground. Earthing as defined by the National Electrical Code is insufficient. Your earth ground must both meet and exceed code requirements. An AC utility demonstrates good, bad, and ugly (preferred, wrong, and right) solutions:

http://www.duke-energy.com/indiana-business/products/power-quality/tech-tip-08.asp

We have only discussed your 'secondary' protection layer. Each layer of protection is only defined by what absorbs energy (which is why type 3 protectors do not claim to protect from typically destructive types of surges). Also inspect your 'primary' protection layer. A picture demonstrates what to inspect:

http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

Protection is always defined by what harmless absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules. Useful recommendation always provide perspective - numbers. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground - which negates many previously recommended (and obscenely overpriced) recommendations.

To clarify on the Panamax surge protectors that use the *Protect or Disconnect* feature. Essentially these devices are similar but NOT the same as GFCI / AFCI's.

In that they trip a shunted SSR (optical) relay circuit while comparing ground, neutral, line voltage conditions.

Meaning unlike MOV's, SAD, Fuses, Diodes, there is nothing to sacrifice or burn up. The circuit is designed to trip based on predetermined voltage levels that are considered safe for general purpose electronics. Because they trip at a reasonable voltage level it will never allow tens of thousands of volts / amps to ever reach the end device.

westom · September 12, 2015

To clarify on the Panamax surge protectors that use the *Protect or Disconnect* feature. Essentially these devices are similar but NOT the same as GFCI / AFCI's.

In that they trip a shunted SSR (optical) relay circuit while comparing ground, neutral, line voltage conditions.

Meaning unlike MOV's, SAD, Fuses, Diodes, there is nothing to sacrifice or burn up. The circuit is designed to trip based on predetermined voltage levels that are considered safe for general purpose electronics. Because they trip at a reasonable voltage level it will never allow tens of thousands of volts / amps to ever reach the end device.

More numbers. Surges that are destructive are done in microseconds. Anything that disconnects takes milliseconds or seconds to respond. Obviously that Panamax protector cannot.

Second, a surge that cannot be stopped by three miles of sky will be stopped by a millimeters gap created by the Panamax? Nonsense.

Third, how does that adjacent protector connect to ground? Not safety ground as you have assumed. That surge is incoming because the appliance makes a best connection to earth - destructively. What did the Panamax do? It simply connected a surge on one AC wire (ie black) to all other wires (ie white and green). Now that surge has more paths destructively into the adjacent appliance.

Repeatedly mentioned was a critically important term with numbers: low impedance (ie less than 10 feet). A protector that does not make a low impedance connection to single point earth ground does not claim to protect from destructive surges. That are four reasons (all provided by an engineer who did this stuff even decades ago) that say why the Panamax, Tripplite,

APC, Monster, et al must be protected by properly earthed 'whole house' protection. And why facilities that cannot have damage do not waste money on the near zero protection defined here as Type 3.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. No way around that reality. Protection means one can always say were hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. All statement supported by numbers that also define why the Panamax does not claim to protect from the other and destructive type of surge.

Nobody said anything about GFCIs, fuses, or circuit breakers for surge protection. Those devices are only for human safety; not for transistor safety. Each takes milliseconds, seconds, or hours to respond. Each only create millimeters gaps. Obviously each cannot and do not claim to protect from surges. Why was GFCI even mentioned?

Teken · September 12, 2015

More numbers. Surges that are destructive are done in microseconds. Anything that disconnects takes milliseconds or seconds to respond. Obviously that Panamax protector cannot.

Second, a surge that cannot be stopped by three miles of sky will be stopped by a millimeters gap created by the Panamax? Nonsense.

Third, how does that adjacent protector connect to ground? Not safety ground as you have assumed. That surge is incoming because the appliance makes a best connection to earth - destructively. What did the Panamax do? It simply connected a surge on one AC wire (ie black) to all other wires (ie white and green). Now that surge has more paths destructively into the adjacent appliance.

Repeatedly mentioned was a critically important term with numbers: low impedance (ie less than 10 feet). A protector that does not make a low impedance connection to single point earth ground does not claim to protect from destructive surges. That are four reasons (all provided by an engineer who did this stuff even decades ago) that say why the Panamax, Tripplite,

APC, Monster, et al must be protected by properly earthed 'whole house' protection. And why facilities that cannot have damage do not waste money on the near zero protection defined here as Type 3.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. No way around that reality. Protection means one can always say were hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. All statement supported by numbers that also define why the Panamax does not claim to protect from the other and destructive type of surge.

Nobody said anything about GFCIs, fuses, or circuit breakers for surge protection. Those devices are only for human safety; not for transistor safety. Each takes milliseconds, seconds, or hours to respond. Each only create millimeters gaps. Obviously each cannot and do not claim to protect from surges. Why was GFCI even mentioned?

As I clearly indicated above the Panamax surge outlet is similar in relative operations to a GFCI / AFCI because it measures the difference which is predetermined by the maker to operate in a safe range.

Like a GFCI if there is a potential difference it will trip to avoid a person from getting electrocuted. This happens in milliseconds and is a proven device all around the world. AFCI's measure arching in the wiring and it also trips in milliseconds to protect the wiring with in the buildings super structure.

Which again is proven to work all around the world . . .

This is where the similarities between these devices (GFCI / AFCI) differ from the Panamax device because its purpose built to measure all three lines ground, neutral, hot / line. Should there be a surge which exceeds the defined limit it will trip very similar to a breaker.

Unlike a breaker this device uses a combination of optical relays, 1 to 1 transformers, and other various discreet components to make or break the electrical flow.

There are no moving parts in this device, given it uses optical (SSR )relays and a transformer it is mechanically, and physically isolated. Both parts are tuned and limited to operate with in its operating threshold no more. There is no way a standard surge can surpass this device coming from the wiring, none.

As I have stated above all the gizmo's in the world will not protect an electronic device from EMP induction, none. I don't care what kind of grounding you have outside of a Faraday cage which in principle forces the magnetic field to be displaced and redirected because it acts like a shield.

At MIT they made a mini focused EMP projected weapon for the D.O.D.

Anything that was shot with this device no longer operated and this includes any cellular tower etc. Grounding has zero protection on induction or EMP.

Again, as I stated above for anyone who has no to limited finances the easiest thing to do is to leave things unplugged, or turn off the breaker.

As written above in the most extreme scenarios if the MIT EMP weapon was fired into your house and only speaking about the devices unplugged they too would not operate.

So, not to dispute the importance of grounding in a building a home as you stated is NOT designed or wired in the same manner as a cellular tower or otherwise. As you stated also the CEC / NEC is not concerned about surge protection its primary goal is life and safety to insure if there is a over load a breaker will trip in hopes of reducing the odds of a fire.

It is only a by product that surge protection is there because ultimately everything is grounded to a single point. Which brings me to the next topic about grounding.

Regardless of the distance or in your case the wire length. Wire diameter, location, and the method of bonding are other factors. Never mind ground soil conditions which play more than wire length because it directly impacts the amount of resistance or potential difference your single point ground will ultimately have.

A house that is built on sand in a dry location will not have the same resistance as a place built on common soil, clay, silt, rock, etc.

Even the tried and true method of installing a Ufer grounding system which I use in my home would be impacted by a dry and sandy foundation soil. So for the average person there isn't a lot a person can do about their environment which brings to the key point about SPD's.

Its a moot point that lightning travels and arcs across miles of sky millions of times a year. Because if you're the unlucky basstard who so happens to be hit directly it really doesn't matter what you had! Again, assume the method of penetration is via induction how would the common man protect himself from such an event??

The simple answer is you can't . . .

There are specific reasons why type 1-4 SPD's are used all across the world in every industry which includes telco's POCO, etc. More to the point type 3 SPD's offer more protection at the outlet because you have the benefit of the buildings wiring and a device that is designed to either fail open or (make / break contact).

Type 1 & 2 primary and secondary SPD's do not protect the home against in line surges which are caused by various appliances in the home as listed above. They also do not react to the same voltage potential as Type 3 SPD's because they are purpose built to operate in the normal and expected range of situation that is common.

Keeping in mind I am speaking about proven name brand SPD's and not from the dollar store. Lastly, as I indicated above it can not be understated that a layered approach be used and deployed.

At the end of the day none of this really matters because its quite academic in the big picture. Because the only thing that will make you whole is exactly what I said from the very beginning.

That is the proper home owners insurance policy with the appropriate coverage for *Act of God* situations like lightning. The reality is billions of people all around the world have been using absolutely nothing in their homes for decades and have been fine in their minds.

Nothing wrong with that because its free!

But the reality is these people are simply unaware and ignorant as to why *how come* I am replacing my toaster, TV, name any plugged in electronic device in the home in a shorter period of time. When compared to other people and simply chock it off to the device being made cheaply etc.

Yes, there is lots of cheap sh^t out there . . .

But, no not everything was designed to blow up in a year.

If people had the same tools I have and could measure their line voltage and monitor the swing in voltage all day. Never mind seeing the frequency drift and the micro sags that come and go each and every day. They would be shocked to know this happens millions of times a year and generally speaking it doesn't impact most electronics.

For those built cheaply any variance can impact their long term service life. When voltage drops 90% of all electronics built today will allow the current to increase exponentially and thus burns out IC's, diodes, traces, etc.

westom · September 13, 2015

As I clearly indicated above the Panamax surge outlet is similar in relative operations to a GFCI / AFCI because it measures the difference which is predetermined by the maker to operate in a safe range.

...

A GFCI or AFCI is protection of humans. It says and does nothing to protect transistors. Again, an GFCI/AFCI or that Panamax respond in milliseconds. That means 300 consecutive surges could destroy attached equipment before those device even begin to trip open.

Destructive type of surge is a current source. That means voltage increases to blow through anything that might try to stop it ... include SSR. Destructive surges easily blow through anything that foolishly tries to stop it. Nothing blocks or stops the type of surge that typically does damage.

Also irrelevant is resistance and wire thickness. Those are relevant to human safety. Transistor safety involves something completely different - impedance. Wire length (not thickness) is relevant. Ufer grounds and other earth grounds upgraded for surge protection (transistor safety) involve a completely different concept - equipotential - not resistance.

In one location, a rocky mountaintop also meant good earthing was diffiuclt. But an Ufer ground (properly upgraded earth ground) meant direct lightning strikes without damage: http://scott-inc.com/html/ufer.htm

If household appliances create surges, then you are trooping to hardware stores daily to replace damage appliances. Reality - household appliance only create noise - a transient that is typically less than ten volts. Even plug-in protectors ignore anything that is less than 330 volts. That household transient myth is popular only because it is a first thing so many heard - without any numbers. Simply include numbers here to see through that myth. How often daily are your GFCIs, smoke detectors, LED bulbs, clocks, etc damaged by transients created repeatedly every day by household appliances? Never.

Meanwhile, if household appliances create that transient, then a 'whole house' protector also makes that transient irrelevant.

Type 1 through 4 SPDs are about human safety - not transistor safety. A type 3 protector located too close to a service entrance is more likely to create a house fire. Those Type numbers are about human safety - say nothing about transistor safety.

'Whole house' protector is necessary to even protect plug-in protectors. More numbers - from the IEEE. A properly earthed 'whole house' protector provides 99.5% to 99.9% of protection. Leaving the plug-in protector to provide maybe another 0.2%. Plug-in protector does nothing for destructive surges IF a 'whole house' solution is not properly earthed. Again, every layer of protection is never defined by a protector; always defined by each protection layer's earth ground.

Defined was 'primary' and 'secondary' protection layers. Plug-in protectors without earth ground are not a protection layer - only protect from transient already made irrelevant by protection inside every appliance. Same existing internal protection also makes irrelevant appliance generated noise and dirtiest power from a UPS in battery backup mode.

Induction is another myth exposed by numbers and example. For example, a lightning strike only ten feet from a long wire antenna may put thousands of volts on that antenna. Then we connect an NE-2 neon glow lamp (also seen in lighted wall switches). Less than a milliamp through that neon lamp reduced thousands of volts to tens of volts. Induce surges are routinely averted by what is already inside every appliance.

Lightning struck the building's lightning rod. Maybe 20,000 amps flowed on that lightning rod's connection to earth. Only four feet away from that 20,000 amps was an IBM PC.... that did not crash or have damage. That was a maximum induced surge as close as possible - that causes nothing in the office to even blink. Induced surges are popular myths when numbers are ignored.

Little electrical difference exists between a $10 Walmart protector and more expensive ones from APC, Belkin, Tripplite, etc. In fact, some APC protectors were so deficient that APC recently announces those protectors must be removed immediately - to avert fire. Fire is another, although rare, problem created by near zero protectors.

Monster also sold a similar product for around $100. Then many knew that similar protector from Monster must be better because it was more expensive and had expensive looking paint.

Relevant facts include specifications numbers - that you did not post. Answer to this always required question: where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? And yes, without properly earthed 'whole house' protection, then those power strips are potential house fires - as documented by so many fire houses and homeowners.

Troubling is continued assumptions that GFCI or Panamax disconnecting does transistor safety. It clearly does not - as demonstrated repeatedly by numbers. Also troubling is ignoring impedance (not resistance ) and wire length (not wire thickness). Even a sharp bend in a hardwire connection to earth can compromise transistor protection; but would not compromise human protection. Electrical nature of transistor protection is completely different from what is required for human protection - even though a same earth ground must address both. You repeatedly cite resistance when impedance is only relevant.

Protection is always about quality of and connection to single point earth ground - in sandy soil, rocky mountaintops, or any other earthing material. Anything that tries to stop a surge by disconnecting means voltage increases as necessary to blow through that ineffective solution. And so facilities that cannot have damage never use that solution; always use a properly earthed 'whole house' solution.

If discussing effective protection, then most of your post should be discussing what does the protection - earth ground. Protectors are simple connecting devices. The 'art' of protection is always each earth ground. Ineffective protectors (such as that Panamax) will not discuss the most critically important component in every protection system. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

Effective protectors come from companies with integrity including ABB, Polyphaser (an industry benchmark), Syscom, General Electric, Leviton, Siemens, Ditek, Keison, Intermatic, and Square D - name but a few. Not listed is Panamax, APC, Belkin, Tripplite, and Monster. An effective Cutler-Hammer solution sells in Lowes and Home Depot.

Teken · September 13, 2015

So you believe grounding will protect a device against EMP?

You believe that lighting which can induce vast amounts of high voltage through free air space can be magically dissipated simply by grounding?

You also believe that electricity can jump via optical isolation and a 1 to 1 magnetic isolation transformer?

If so that is truly fantastic!

Ideals are peaceful - History is violent

larryllix · September 13, 2015

As an old electrical grid utility worker "ground" takes on a whole new meaning. Some farms in the rural have so much step potential across their ground it has killed their cattle. Some have to do equipotential grounding around their tubs to take a shower without getting shocks off their shower head sprinkle.

I worked with an older linesman that found a street light fault in the ground with his testicles. They dug where he said and there was the 120vac insulation skinned and buried down three feet deep. Yikes!

"Ground" is not any absolute and just another huge high impedance/resistance conductor path for potential drop due to people grounding everything. There is no "Earth potential".

When people stop connecting everything to "ground" many of these problems go away. Make your own common and have no difference across yourself, your transistors, or your equipment.

In short (pun intended) we don't connect things to ground but rather we connect ground to things, (or was it both? ) raising ground's voltage potential voltage to the same point. This is equipotential grounding and it works for lightning too, When lightning hits, be somewhere else. The Knights of Old had it right.

EMPs can be stopped with faraday cage style shield made of ferrous materials. Something to conduct magnetic fields around you, rather than voltage differences, in this case, around us. If there is no difference of field there is no problem. You can never take a bath though, Ironman.

westom · September 13, 2015

So you believe grounding will protect a device against EMP?

You also believe that electricity can jump via optical isolation and a 1 to 1 magnetic isolation transformer?

Again posted are your feelings - not science and not numbers. Your accusations again are not supported by citations. Posted is your hearsay - subjective claims that only accuse rather than demonstrate basic electrical knowlege. That is typical of recommendations for ineffective and obscenely profitable protectors..

Grounding and bonding are routinely performed to make EMP irrelevant. EMP also is not relevant to this topic. Like GFCIs, you are again posting what is totally irrelevant. OP asked about 'whole house' protectors to protect from damage due to thunderstorms. Provided with citations and numbers are why 'whole house' protection is so effective. Things completely irrelevant to his question such as Type 1-4 protectors, wire thickness, SSR to block a surge, price, GFCI/AFGI, etc ... all do not answer the OP's question and are irrelevant to protecting transistors. You confuse human safety with transistor safety. You even posted a famous myth about induced surges from nearby lightning.

So where is one manufacturer specification that claims to make destructive surges (ie hundreds of thousands of joules) irrelevant? Never cited. Subjective claims are also called junk science reasoning. Posted are subjective denials - and never relevant facts and numbers - such as where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate?

Manufacturers of integrity that provide real world protection for about $1 per protected appliance were listed. Even Mil-Std-419 defines protection:

1.3.3.5.12:
When the surge arrester is not properly grounded, its response time will be delayed and a higher clamp voltage than that of the surge arrester will be impressed across the equipment being protected. This can also be expected if the earth ground connection for the surge arrester contains loops or sharp bends or is not properly bonded to the earth electrode subsystem. … Figure 1-36 shows the surge arresters installed to ensure the [nest direct route to ground thereby minimizing the lead inductance(s) and ensure the firing of the surge arresters Another professional confirms what I have been saying all along and what you deny by recommending protectors that have no earth ground.

British Standard BS6651 defines when protection is effective:

Surge protectors continuously monitor the power or signal line for overvoltages. When the voltage rises above a certain level components inside the protector divert the excess energy to earth and limit the voltage to a safe level. All work by reacting to the excess voltage caused by the surge and by changing electrical state [is] to conduct the surge energy safely to earth.

Your recommendations cannot and do not do that.

Sun Microsystems’ "Planning guide for Sun Server room":

Section 6.4.7 Lightning Protection: Lightning surges cannot be stopped, but they can be diverted. The plans for the data center should be thoroughly reviewed to identify any paths for surge entry into the data center. Surge arrestors … should divert the power of the surge by providing a path to ground for the surge energy.

Magially your Panamax will stop surges when responsible sources (ie Sun) say that cannot happen. Responsible sources are based in over 100 years of science and experience. Based in facts that include numbers.

If a surge cannot jump your Panamax optical isolation and transformer, well, those same features are already inside electronic power supplies. That is the robust protection already inside electronic appliances. As required by international design standards that even existed before the IBM PC. A surge that does damage blows through optical isolation and isolation transformers already inside electronics. So your Panamax will do what cannot work inside electronics? Why spend so much money to only do what is already exists? Because Panamax is recommended when one does not even know what already exists.

A homeowner's concern is a surge that can overwhelm protection already inside appliances. That Panamax does not claim protection that you have only speculated - without even one Panamax numeric spec number. Panamax needs protection only possible by properly earthing a 'whole house' solution. But again, how does that Panamax make hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? Why do you ignore that damning question? Because it has numbers. And because it is based in solutions proven and demonstrated over 100 years ago.

Unfortunately a majority can be manipulated by subjective claims from sales brochures rather than learn that same protection already exists inside appliances. Will even discuss irrelevant GFCIs, Type 1-4 protectors, wire thickness, and EMP to muddy discussion. Then people will not notice - all denials were made without any numbers and no professional citations. All denials are only subjective.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Your subjective denials are contradicted by so many industry professionals including the US military, Sun Microsystems, and British Standards for surge protection.

larryllix · September 13, 2015

...

You also believe that electricity can jump via optical isolation and a 1 to 1 magnetic isolation transformer?

...

Medical isolation 1:1 transformers have a grounded shield between the primary and secondary. It doesn't jump through those ones while you have a probe in your brain on the operating table.

westom · September 13, 2015

Me thinks this thread should be closed. Answers for the OP are not forthcoming and beneficial anymore.

Useful protection recommended by an engineer who did this stuff. Recommended are products from General Electric, Polyphwers (an industry benchmark), Square D, Siemens, ABB, Leviton, Syscom, Cutler-Hammer, Intermatic, General Electric and so many other manufacturers known for quality.

Not listed are Belkin, Tripplite, Panamax, and APC. Monster has a long history of identifying scams. Then selling an equivalent product at even higher prices. Monster is also selling it. That says much about equivalent protectors from Belkin, Tripplite, etc.

Not one specification number claims that Panamax protects from another and typically destructive surge. Those many Panamax recommendations are subjective - using logic that also once proved smoking cigarettes increased health.

A superior and proven solution from companies with integrity costs about $! per protected appliance - to even protect from direct lightning strikes. OP is strongly encouraged to separate urban myth from professional experience. Honest recommendations are not subjective and accusatory. Honest posts include manufacturer specification numbers. Where are Panamax's spec numbers? Never provided.

For over 100 years, the proven protection even from direct lightning strikes is earthing - and a 'whole house' protector when a direct hardwire cannot be used..

Teken · September 13, 2015

A GFCI or AFCI is protection of humans. It says and does nothing to protect transistors. Again, an GFCI/AFCI or that Panamax respond in milliseconds. That means 300 consecutive surges could destroy attached equipment before those device even begin to trip open.

Destructive type of surge is a current source. That means voltage increases to blow through anything that might try to stop it ... include SSR. Destructive surges easily blow through anything that foolishly tries to stop it. Nothing blocks or stops the type of surge that typically does damage.

Also irrelevant is resistance and wire thickness. Those are relevant to human safety. Transistor safety involves something completely different - impedance. Wire length (not thickness) is relevant. Ufer grounds and other earth grounds upgraded for surge protection (transistor safety) involve a completely different concept - equipotential - not resistance.

In one location, a rocky mountaintop also meant good earthing was diffiuclt. But an Ufer ground (properly upgraded earth ground) meant direct lightning strikes without damage: http://scott-inc.com/html/ufer.htm

If household appliances create surges, then you are trooping to hardware stores daily to replace damage appliances. Reality - household appliance only create noise - a transient that is typically less than ten volts. Even plug-in protectors ignore anything that is less than 330 volts. That household transient myth is popular only because it is a first thing so many heard - without any numbers. Simply include numbers here to see through that myth. How often daily are your GFCIs, smoke detectors, LED bulbs, clocks, etc damaged by transients created repeatedly every day by household appliances? Never.

Meanwhile, if household appliances create that transient, then a 'whole house' protector also makes that transient irrelevant.

Type 1 through 4 SPDs are about human safety - not transistor safety. A type 3 protector located too close to a service entrance is more likely to create a house fire. Those Type numbers are about human safety - say nothing about transistor safety.

'Whole house' protector is necessary to even protect plug-in protectors. More numbers - from the IEEE. A properly earthed 'whole house' protector provides 99.5% to 99.9% of protection. Leaving the plug-in protector to provide maybe another 0.2%. Plug-in protector does nothing for destructive surges IF a 'whole house' solution is not properly earthed. Again, every layer of protection is never defined by a protector; always defined by each protection layer's earth ground.

Defined was 'primary' and 'secondary' protection layers. Plug-in protectors without earth ground are not a protection layer - only protect from transient already made irrelevant by protection inside every appliance. Same existing internal protection also makes irrelevant appliance generated noise and dirtiest power from a UPS in battery backup mode.

Induction is another myth exposed by numbers and example. For example, a lightning strike only ten feet from a long wire antenna may put thousands of volts on that antenna. Then we connect an NE-2 neon glow lamp (also seen in lighted wall switches). Less than a milliamp through that neon lamp reduced thousands of volts to tens of volts. Induce surges are routinely averted by what is already inside every appliance.

Lightning struck the building's lightning rod. Maybe 20,000 amps flowed on that lightning rod's connection to earth. Only four feet away from that 20,000 amps was an IBM PC.... that did not crash or have damage. That was a maximum induced surge as close as possible - that causes nothing in the office to even blink. Induced surges are popular myths when numbers are ignored.

Little electrical difference exists between a $10 Walmart protector and more expensive ones from APC, Belkin, Tripplite, etc. In fact, some APC protectors were so deficient that APC recently announces those protectors must be removed immediately - to avert fire. Fire is another, although rare, problem created by near zero protectors.

Monster also sold a similar product for around $100. Then many knew that similar protector from Monster must be better because it was more expensive and had expensive looking paint.

Relevant facts include specifications numbers - that you did not post. Answer to this always required question: where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? And yes, without properly earthed 'whole house' protection, then those power strips are potential house fires - as documented by so many fire houses and homeowners.

Troubling is continued assumptions that GFCI or Panamax disconnecting does transistor safety. It clearly does not - as demonstrated repeatedly by numbers. Also troubling is ignoring impedance (not resistance ) and wire length (not wire thickness). Even a sharp bend in a hardwire connection to earth can compromise transistor protection; but would not compromise human protection. Electrical nature of transistor protection is completely different from what is required for human protection - even though a same earth ground must address both. You repeatedly cite resistance when impedance is only relevant.

Protection is always about quality of and connection to single point earth ground - in sandy soil, rocky mountaintops, or any other earthing material. Anything that tries to stop a surge by disconnecting means voltage increases as necessary to blow through that ineffective solution. And so facilities that cannot have damage never use that solution; always use a properly earthed 'whole house' solution.

If discussing effective protection, then most of your post should be discussing what does the protection - earth ground. Protectors are simple connecting devices. The 'art' of protection is always each earth ground. Ineffective protectors (such as that Panamax) will not discuss the most critically important component in every protection system. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

Effective protectors come from companies with integrity including ABB, Polyphaser (an industry benchmark), Syscom, General Electric, Leviton, Siemens, Ditek, Keison, Intermatic, and Square D - name but a few. Not listed is Panamax, APC, Belkin, Tripplite, and Monster. An effective Cutler-Hammer solution sells in Lowes and Home Depot.

More numbers. Surges that are destructive are done in microseconds. Anything that disconnects takes milliseconds or seconds to respond. Obviously that Panamax protector cannot.

Second, a surge that cannot be stopped by three miles of sky will be stopped by a millimeters gap created by the Panamax? Nonsense.

Third, how does that adjacent protector connect to ground? Not safety ground as you have assumed. That surge is incoming because the appliance makes a best connection to earth - destructively. What did the Panamax do? It simply connected a surge on one AC wire (ie black) to all other wires (ie white and green). Now that surge has more paths destructively into the adjacent appliance.

Repeatedly mentioned was a critically important term with numbers: low impedance (ie less than 10 feet). A protector that does not make a low impedance connection to single point earth ground does not claim to protect from destructive surges. That are four reasons (all provided by an engineer who did this stuff even decades ago) that say why the Panamax, Tripplite,

APC, Monster, et al must be protected by properly earthed 'whole house' protection. And why facilities that cannot have damage do not waste money on the near zero protection defined here as Type 3.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. No way around that reality. Protection means one can always say were hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. All statement supported by numbers that also define why the Panamax does not claim to protect from the other and destructive type of surge.

Nobody said anything about GFCIs, fuses, or circuit breakers for surge protection. Those devices are only for human safety; not for transistor safety. Each takes milliseconds, seconds, or hours to respond. Each only create millimeters gaps. Obviously each cannot and do not claim to protect from surges. Why was GFCI even mentioned?

Let me see if I follow your circular logic for a moment because after reading your reply about 99999999999 times it fails to make sense to me or even meet the sniff test.

Your insistence on stating that fuses, circuit breakers, are only intended for human safety and not for transistor safety flies in the face to every known electronic device made in the world.

Given the fact just those two components are used every day in all manner of devices all around the world! Fuses, diodes, bi-metal, thermisters, MOV, breakers, etc have all been used and continue to be used in every aspect of electronics to protect electronics depending on use case!

Do you believe the fuse in your vehicle is only for human safety?!?!? Is the TPM in my iPhone used solely for protection of the device or is it the combination of human and device?!?!?

Every purpose built device with any thought will have some kind of regulated power supply and additional fault tolerant component to protect the device from thermal run away or under / over voltage conditions. Not only is this required under specific certification its just good common sense in manufacturing of a final product.

This is why UL / cUL are present and depending upon the industry / product they must meet this standards before they are allowed to be sold in their respective markets.

Since you're such a fan of numbers as am I lets try to stay on point and offer said facts. Because the circle talk doesn't change the imperial facts as they are known.

As I have listed way above which you have also agreed Leviton is one of the most respected and used product used in the free world. As I indicated way above in the first post by me this is the first line of defense I use in my home:

http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ProductDetail.jsp?partnumber=50240-MSA&section=39659&minisite=10251

Do you see the numbers? Do you see what this device conforms to???

Ah yes . . .

This device conforms to the following standard which it either meets or exceeds to bare the mark: UL 1449 3rd Edition

This link is from one of the most respected makers in fuses in the free world and breaks down what has changed and what a device must do to meet this UL requirement: http://www.littelfuse.com/about-us/education-center/ul1449.aspx

Now lets see what the referenced Panamax surge outlet conforms to: http://www.panamax.com/Products/In-Wall/MIW-SURGE-1G.php#tab_spec

Interesting it conforms, meets, and even exceeds the UL 1449 3 Edition by using licenses proprietary technology which many others use also???

Since you're also a fan of Sycom as am I which by the way I also use and referenced. Let see what this maker conforms to and what the numbers you insist upon ranting on about: http://sycomsurge.com/~sycomsur/images/products/SYC-T2%20Series.pdf

Interesting this product meets and conforms to what specification and is validated by a 3rd party testing laboratory not only from the UL / cUL, but by another third party independent of them too!

Now, lets see what APC / Schneider Electric the largest manufacturer of SPD's and UPS in the free world that is used in every business, home, government, hospital, police, military, air port, etc. http://www.apc.com/home/ca/en/

What conformity does this company and its products follow?? You guessed it UL 1449 3rd Edition. Which again must be tested and validated by a 3rd party lab and UL / cUL to bare the mark.

So lets move on with our little field trip shall we and discuss more about lightning or rather voltage. Most people are under the impression that just because you see a ball of lightning in the sky or anywhere else this must be deadly!

No . . .

Many people are familiar with Tesla coils??? How about when you get a shock from walking on carpet in a dry environment and see a nice spark off your finger??

Everyone knows voltage does not kill its the amount of current that passes through and the duration and where it enters. If an arc of electricity of excess of 20000 - 25000 volts doesn't kill the average person why could that be??

Not enough current to besides the basic resistance a human subject has.

When people spout off about how lightning has XXXXXXX volts they never correlate how much current / amps is present. Neither do they acknowledge that each strike is unique and different each time and the amount of voltage and current varies and often times has no more than milliamps!

This does not discount the awesome power that can and will kill you and anything it touches whether it be directly or indirectly. Which brings me to the next topic which you seem to like to gloss over and ignore or discount.

Again, you believe simple grounding to earth will protect a piece of electronics from induced voltage or EMP?!?!? I hope you do realize that EMP can only be circumvented to a limited degree by shielding. Grounding is one part of the shielding process but material application is the primary method in all war ships, submarines, any military spec device.

How do you explain a military hand held radio is able to operate in a EMP environment?? Is it grounding?!?!

It certainly isn't magic . . .

Its proper shielding and material coating and selective components that are resistant to such effects. Back to resistance because most people know high resistance is bad when speaking about stray voltage. Again you fail to acknowledge or accept imperial fact that if two identical houses built exactly the same but on different soil conditions will pose a higher risk and negate any sort of effective grounding.

A person who's house is built on pure dry sand will not have the same electrical grounding potential as someone who lives in a wet clay soil environment, period.

The resistance of the two are dramatic and secondary measures must be in place to keep resistance below 25 ohms! As I stated even though my ground soil is perfect with respect to low resistance. I paid extra for my builder to use the tried and true method of Ufer grounding.

Coupled with this best practice was tying the single point ground to 50, 100 foot driven piles in the ground. Added was increasing the standard 6 gauge ground wire 4.

Regardless of all of the above it makes absolutely no difference if there was an act of God event or EMP! To suggest that simple grounding could protect a person against induced high voltage or EMP is preposterous. Grounding is important and imperative on every level but it is part of other system(s) that if used and applied can help reduce loss.

To suggest otherwise is not only untrue but flies in the face of reason and facts.

Which brings home one of the most important aspects of electronic protection. More homes are damaged by voltage sags / lulls then lightning events.

When voltage drops, current rises!

What is a single point ground going to offer the end user here?!?!

Nothing . . .

Once again let me strike home the advantage of the Panamax *Protect or Disconnect* technology. Depending upon model and unit such as TrippLite. The expected and nominal voltage for a home is 110 - 120 VAC. The POCO is allowed a 5% variance which can sway from 100 to 130 VAC.

When voltage drops or raises above 80 - 150 VAC things go up in smoke! This is a far cry from 20, 000 volts from a surge isn't it??

How can a small 80 volts AC damage electronics?!?!?

Again as pointed out when voltage drops current rises! Current is what kills you and small traced electronics. To suggest a single point ground will in anyway protect a persons electronics or appliances from a sag in voltage or a rise in voltage which exceeds 150 VAC is false.

Keeping in mind I am not talking about a spurt in or drop in voltage in the milliseconds, micro seconds, nano seconds. I am talking about seconds, minutes, hours, etc. A properly designed and equipped AVR system will protect end devices from such swings in long term voltage.

Grounding has nothing to do with frequency drift or sag in voltage or where voltage rise is present like from a loose neutral.

Bottom line the choices are offered here and people need to decide the risk vs reward that suites there needs. People shouldn't get distracted by circular talk which I have debunked above.

Standards continue to be improved, revised, and changed. Standards are there for others to follow and have reference in hopes of protecting people, property, and other. All of these companies I have offered meet, exceed, or excel in their respective fields.

Leviton, Panamax, Sycom, TrippLite, Schneider Electric et all did not get there by magic! There wares are not being used in every known industry because they are good talkers with nothing to offer.

Any reasonable person should take my writing with a huge heaping of table salt! And do their own research and come up with their own answers as I would expect nothing less. Should you read, learn, and know more about basic protection with respect to SPD's you will come to realize this is basic 101 and there is no magic here.

I don't offer circle talk . . .

westom · September 13, 2015

Your insistence on stating that fuses, circuit breakers, are only intended for human safety and not for transistor safety flies in the face to every known electronic device made in the world.

Electronics are destroyed in microseconds. Fuses and circuit breakers take millisecond, seconds, or even minutes to trip. A small current that destroys electronics will not even trip a breaker or fuse. But the resulting large current that follows (due to damage) does eventually blow a fuse ... to avert fire ... to protect human life.

Fuses and breakers are defined and sized by standards such as the National Electrical Code - written by a fire safety organization called the National Fire Protection Association. To avert fire.

Another example - MOVs can be grossly undersized as to fail on surges even too tiny to damage electronics. UL does not care if a protector does protection. UL does not care whether any appliance performs properly. UL is only a human safety organization - protection of human life. A thermal fuse (typically less than 1 amp) must disconnect failed MOVs as fast as possible - so that a grossly undersized protector does not create a fire. That surge remains connected to appliances. A thermal fuse blows (trips) after an MOV has failed. To disconnect a failed MOV so as to avert fire and protect human life..

You did not even know that electronics are destroyed in microseconds while fuses take milliseconds or longer to trip. Fuses clearly trip / open AFTER damage has occurred. Another example of your knowledge only from hearsay and subjective speculation. And not from doing this stuff or learning how electricity works. Your denials are subjective - always missing required facts and numbers. No wonder you also foolishly believe UL1449 rates protector performance. UL1449 defines human safety - to avert fires created by protectors. UL1449 was created because so many plug-in protectors created fires.

Moving on - your Leviton citation is an example of a 'whole house' protector that I recommended. View its specification numbers. 50,000 amps defines protector life expectancy. It meets that minimal number. That says nothing about UL1449. UL1449 says nothing about protection. UL is about human safety. Other protectors that also meet UL1449 do not even meet that minimal 50,000 amp requirement. But again, I have posted numbers that you clearly do not understand AND therefore ignore. Why do you assume UL 1449 defines protection? Because hearsay said so? Please.

Can that Leviton protector be part of a system that harmlessly dissipates hundreds of thousands of joules? Yes. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Leviton would have that earhing. That Panamax clearly does not. Does not claim to protect from destructive surges. But also meets UL1449 to hopefully not cause a house fire when a surge also damages attached appliances.

UL does not rate protector performance. UL is only about human safety issues. If I say it enough, will you finally learn what UL 1449 is?

Again, more irrelevant EMP postings. OP asked about protection from lightning and other typically harmful anomalies. EMP is irrelevant to protection of household appliances. Why do you harp on the irrelevant?

Meanwhile an IEEE paper defines correcting a nuclear hardened maritime communication station to avert damage from EMP and lightning. What did they do? Corrected defective earthing. So you say authors of that IEEE paper are wrong because subjective hearsay and a bogus Panamax protector provided knowledge? Why did professionals avert EMP problems by fixing earth ground? Apparently authors of IEEE papers must be wrong using your logic - that is only subjective.

Mil-Std-419, British engineering standards and others contradict your hearsay denials. Even a simple ground has you completely befuddled. You do not even know what fuses and circuit breakers do. And are totally confused by UL 1449 (a human safety standard).

Please stop posting circular denials, subjective (junk science) reasoning, and myths. Please first learn some basic electrical concepts and numbers before recommending anything. Next post will quote more professionals who define what is essential for appliance protection - single point earth ground

paulbates · September 13, 2015

Stop. This is conversation is no longer helping anyone.

westom · September 13, 2015

From an AT&T forum on surge protection:

Surge protection takes on many forms, but always involves the following components: Grounding bonding and surge protectors. ...

Grounding is required to provide the surge protector with a path to dump the excess energy to earth. A proper ground system is a mandatory requirement of surge protection. Without a proper ground, a surge protector has no way to disburse the excess energy and will fail to protect downstream equipment.

Bonding is required to electrically connect together the various grounds of the services entering the premises. Without bonding, a surge may still enter a premise after firing over a surge protector, which will attempt to pass the excess energy to its ground with any additional energy that the services surge protector ground cannot instantly handle, traveling into and through protected equipment, damaging that equipment in the process. ...

Now, if all the various service entrance grounds are bonded together there are no additional paths to ground through the premise. Even if all of the grounds cannot instantly absorb the energy, the lack of additional paths to ground through the premise prevents the excess energy from seeking out any additional grounds through that premise and the electronic equipment within. As such, the excess energy remains in the ground system until dissipated, sparing the protected equipment from damage. ...

By far, the whole house hardwired surge protectors provide the best protection. When a whole house primary surge protector is installed at the service entrance, it will provide a solid first line of defense against surges which enter from the power company's service entrance feed. These types of protectors can absorb/pass considerably more energy than any other type of protector, and if one does catastrophically fail, it will not typically be in a living space. ...

Plug in strip protectors are, at best, a compromise. At worst, they may cause more damage than they prevent. While they may do an acceptable job of handling hot to neutral surges, they do a poor job of handling any surge that must be passed to ground. ...

Then, to add insult to injury, some strip protectors add Telco and/or LAN surge protection within the same device, trying to be an all-in-one sale. Remember bonding? When Telco or LAN protection is added to a strip protector, if the premise ground, which is not designed to handle surges, cannot handle all of the energy, guess where that excess energy seeks out the additional grounds? You got it! The Telco and LAN connections now becomes the path, with disastrous results to those devices. ...

AT&T discussion is layman simple. A Panamax does not do and does not claim to accomplish any of what is required to have effective protection..

Teken · September 13, 2015

Let me preface this reply to others who may not be aware by stating Westom and I are familiar with one another. Having said that he and I both hold views that are entrenched on different beliefs, back ground, and technical knowledge. As Westom insists upon separating or making the distinction of human vs component.

Lets speak plainly here shall we: Outside of something naturally occurring why is man here? Man is here at the very moment to learn, harness, and control his environment.

Everything man does is ultimately to serve his needs and in doing so they coexist.

Man came up with ways to measure and protect himself against things like lightning. Man also decided it was a good idea to have some kind of reference, measure, or standard.

Because of this man created UL / cUL to define how to measure, protect, and what levels are acceptable. This ever changing document and standard is the 1449 3rd Edition. Westom believes electronic vs man are two distinctions, why??

Does the document and those standards not ultimately relate to man?? What would be the purpose to build something that man could not enjoy or use?

Why have standards which I have shown above (referencing) all the same companies and others that meet the very same? Are these companies simply following UL / cUL 1449 3rd Edition because its nice to have?

Why does Westom not directly answer why earth grounding can not protect an electronic device impacted by a EMP pulse or induced voltage??

Because grounding is just part of the system . . .

Once again I must stress that grounding is one part of the bigger picture when it relates to EMP or induced voltages over the air.

Westom will need to answer how does a plane survive a direct strike from lightning?? The answer is its a combination of (systems) and engineering that allows a plane to survive *most* strikes. The outer shell of the plane acts like a Faraday cage.

Keeping in mind there is no ground is there because the plane is in the freaking air!

But is the planes aluminum frame enough to protect the plane against said lightning?

No . . .

Devices in the plane are properly shielded, parts are spec'd to have very high endurance and voltage thresholds, along with isolation in the (system).

Even with all of this a God like strike can still bring down a plane due to the actual force (energy) the strike has. As I try very hard to provide real world examples such as the fuse Westom insists upon missing the whole point.

Why did I offer the fuse as an example??

Because almost every human being can relate to what a simple fuse does. As time went on I provided more examples in hopes of explaining and sharing with the group how (man) has found other methods to accomplish the same like a fuse!

They are avalanche diodes, MOV's, Opto Isolators, transformers, etc.

Each company can use what ever it is they want to meet a dollar cost or over all goal. Some of the above offer incredible speed at low cost where as others cost more but offer longer life.

Again these are simple examples that Westom ignores and believes they have no correlations to the (System Design). Since Westom loves to quote one of my favorite technical groups which is the IEEE.

Here are the answers to his questions:

Quote: