Do I need devices on both phases?

[ryanmead83]

I know that homes have 2 phases and should have devices on both to mesh best.  Lately I've been having non stop comm problems and I have isolated it down to circuit breaker 19 on my panel.  When I turn that off, any devices I have in the 4 tap test all start working.  Turn it back on and they stop.  The problem is that I can't figure out any reason 19 causes problems.  Of course it has to be the breaker for most of the main floor, but every outlet is empty with nothing plugged in, and all the wall switches are standard non automated decora ones that have been there for years.  So it's not a device causing noise on that circuit as I've checked 10 times to make sure nothing is plugged in.

 

It turns out however that with a bit of shuffling, 95% of my devices are all on the opposite phase of whatever 19 is on, so when I move the PLM to a different outlet and do the 4 tap test, any that are on the same phase all work fine even if breaker 19 is turned on.  I don't plan on adding any more Insteon devices in the future as I prefer Z-Wave ones, but just wondering if this might cause problems or if it's fine?  Seems like noise on the line or something but nothing is plugged in and I definitely have no interest in pulling out 5 year old wall switches just to make sure it's not one of them causing problems, as I really only have about 5-6 Insteon devices anyway.

 

Thanks!

[Teken]

I know that homes have 2 phases and should have devices on both to mesh best.  Lately I've been having non stop comm problems and I have isolated it down to circuit breaker 19 on my panel.  When I turn that off, any devices I have in the 4 tap test all start working.  Turn it back on and they stop.  The problem is that I can't figure out any reason 19 causes problems.  Of course it has to be the breaker for most of the main floor, but every outlet is empty with nothing plugged in, and all the wall switches are standard non automated decora ones that have been there for years.  So it's not a device causing noise on that circuit as I've checked 10 times to make sure nothing is plugged in.

 

It turns out however that with a bit of shuffling, 95% of my devices are all on the opposite phase of whatever 19 is on, so when I move the PLM to a different outlet and do the 4 tap test, any that are on the same phase all work fine even if breaker 19 is turned on.  I don't plan on adding any more Insteon devices in the future as I prefer Z-Wave ones, but just wondering if this might cause problems or if it's fine?  Seems like noise on the line or something but nothing is plugged in and I definitely have no interest in pulling out 5 year old wall switches just to make sure it's not one of them causing problems, as I really only have about 5-6 Insteon devices anyway.

 

Thanks!

 

What kind of lighting loads are in use now? Florecent, CFL, LED? Keeping in mind as electronics age they invaribly start outputing noise before they die.

 

As for two phase others will chime in as its technically single (split) phase.

[Xathros]

It seems likely to me that there IS something on circuit 19 causing issues.  While it is remotely possible that it is the breaker itself, this is pretty unlikely in my opinion.  I could be something you haven't thought of like electronics in a hard wired appliance (Stove, fridge, dishwasher, microwave, digital range hood, furnace, hvac components etc.)

 

As to your first question, it is best practice to have two or more dual band devices bridging the legs of your electrical system.  This is many times done with access points (now called range extenders) but can also be accomplished with dual band plug in modules or in wall modules.  The range extenders and plug in modules tend to offer the best range and performance for this purpose.

 

You mentioned running the 4 tap test.  Did any of the responding devices flash green?  If so, you already have a functioning phase bridge in place.

 

-Xathros

[ryanmead83]

It's really random.  Like if I plug in a bunch of devices and do the 4 tap test, they don't respond.  I turn off breaker 19, and any that aren't on breaker 19 all start flashing green, I put the breaker back on and they stop flashing all together.  I moved the PLM and when I do the 4 tap test, half my devices don't respond but half of them flash red regardless of if breaker 19 is on or not so thought I'd leave it there.  Although now when I try it, 2 SwitchLinc's that are together in the same box, one flashes red and the other just full on doesn't respond any more or flash.  It's not an appliance, I checked everything, the breaker is just wall outlets on the first floor and half the wall switches.  When I turn it off, the dishwasher, stove, fridge etc all continue to work as they aren't on that breaker.  That's okay, seems like there's more problems here than just using 1 phase or the other so I think I'll leave it be.  Like I said I only have a few Insteon devices, I prefer Z-Wave since they are wireless so you don't have all these issues with them not working because of power line or wiring issues, so just seems a bit more reliable to me.  Thanks!

[Xathros]

I would still bet that there is something on that circuit that your missing.  Remote controlled ceiling fan(s), outdoor motion sensor lights or other landscape lighting, doorbell, line powered wall clock(s), alarm system, any UPS's, power strips or surge suppressors still plugged in (even if switched off)...  Something is injecting noise or absorbing signal.

 

-Xathros

[ryanmead83]

Yeah definitely must be, just can't figure out what.  When I turn off that breaker it only turns off the first floor outlets, and then 6 wall switches, the rest all stay on.  I don't have remote control fans, or motion lights, and I even went around the house and unplugged ever single device that was plugged in.  I wish there was an easier way to narrow it down!  I love your signature, if you ain't broke lol that's about the size of it!!!

 

Quick side question, if I pull the air gap on a SwitchLinc would that technically be the same as removing it?  As in if I want to rule out a SwitchLinc being wired wrong or causing problems, can I just do that or do I actually have to remove it all if I want to double check everything?

 

How do you like your Apple Watch by the way?  We switched to Android 2 months ago and just switched back to iPhone lol.  Had the Galaxy S6 but man what a piece of garbage.  We bought the Gear S watch and 6 weeks in the touchscreen stopped working, and Samsung is trying to tell me it's physical damage, outside of warranty, and $350 to fix it (when they are $299 to buy right now!).  Was shocked at the difference between Apple support and Samsung.

[ryanmead83]

Sorry one more question!  Is there a difference with the PLM vs a LampLinc doing the 4 button tap test?  Because if I plug the PLM into an outlet, half the time I do the 4 tap test, it flashes and beeps over and over, but NO other device responds or flashes, or maybe half do.  I unplug the PLM, put a LampLinc in that same outlet and do the 4 tap test, and practically all my devices flash as expected.  I have 2 PLMs as well, had a spare from another house and they both do the same thing.  Do devices have to be linked to the PLM to flash with the 4 tap test, or would all work regardless?

[Xathros]

Love the watch and it looks like it will be improving drastically in another week with the launch of Watch OS2.  Definitely looking forward to native apps.

 

Any of your outlets on #19 the kind with USB charger ports?

 

-Xathros

[jerlands]

Sorry one more question!  Is there a difference with the PLM vs a LampLinc doing the 4 button tap test?  Because if I plug the PLM into an outlet, half the time I do the 4 tap test, it flashes and beeps over and over, but NO other device responds or flashes, or maybe half do.  I unplug the PLM, put a LampLinc in that same outlet and do the 4 tap test, and practically all my devices flash as expected.  I have 2 PLMs as well, had a spare from another house and they both do the same thing.  Do devices have to be linked to the PLM to flash with the 4 tap test, or would all work regardless?

 

Which PLM do you have?  The 2412 isn't dual band.. the lamplinc is dual band which would explain why only half respond to the modem..

also.. i believe it you pull the air gap it does remove power which in effect removes it from the network.

 

Jon...

[ryanmead83]

I have 2 in the kitchen that have USB ports but just checked and they are not on breaker 19 but another one.  They are however on whatever the opposite phase is of where the PLM normally is.

 

I've done some tests and concluded so far that the 4 tap test initiated from either of my PLMs almost never works.  If I use a LampLinc all devices work right away flashing as expected.  Do I have to do something so that the PLM makes them flash, like link them together or something?  The LampLinc's aren't linked to anything so not sure why that would matter.  

 

I have 2 2413S PLMs.  Says on the back "PowerLinc Serial (Dual-Band) 2413S".  It honestly almost acts like any RF capabilities aren't working, but I have 2 PLMs one is new as a cold spare and it does the same thing, so it's super weird.  If the air gap is the same as removing the switch, then it isn't any of those as it still has issues even when air gap is pulled on all devices, even my Z-Wave ones.

[jerlands]

I have 2 in the kitchen that have USB ports but just checked and they are not on breaker 19 but another one.  They are however on whatever the opposite phase is of where the PLM normally is.

 

I've done some tests and concluded so far that the 4 tap test initiated from either of my PLMs almost never works.  If I use a LampLinc all devices work right away flashing as expected.  Do I have to do something so that the PLM makes them flash, like link them together or something?  The LampLinc's aren't linked to anything so not sure why that would matter.  

 

I have 2 2413S PLMs.  Says on the back "PowerLinc Serial (Dual-Band) 2413S".  It honestly almost acts like any RF capabilities aren't working, but I have 2 PLMs one is new as a cold spare and it does the same thing, so it's super weird.  If the air gap is the same as removing the switch, then it isn't any of those as it still has issues even when air gap is pulled on all devices, even my Z-Wave ones.

 

 

I just test my PLY (2413) and it only set off devices on the same leg so I'm assuming it only sets off powerline for it.

 

Jon..

[Xathros]

The fact that neither PLM can't make the lamplincs respond simply means that the PLM location is out of RF range of the lamplincs.  Move the PLM or a lamplinc closer and try again.

 

The 4 tap test (also called beacon test) from any dualband device sends an RF beacon.  Any device receiving the beacon will either blink red (same leg as initiator) or Green (Opposite leg from initiator).  Any dualband device not blinking at all is NOT receiving the RF beacon from the initiator.

 

-Xathros

[Xathros]

I just test my PLY (2413) and it only set off devices on the same leg so I'm assuming it only sets off powerline for it.

 

Jon..

No.  It just means that you don't have any dualband devices on the opposite leg within RF range of the PLM.

 

-Xathros

[ryanmead83]

I've tried that though, I even had the PLM and LampLinc on the exact same plug.  The PLM almost never makes devices flash, only the Lamp Linc does.  Here's 2 tests, with a LL and then PLM, first on a phase A outlet and then on a phase B outlet:

 

Living Room outlet phase A - Lamp Linc  TO Kitchen SwitchLinc 20 feet away phase A = Flashes green every second

Same test but both PLM's replacing the LL = No response

Kitchen outlet under the SwitchLinc phase B - Lamp Linc TO Kitchen SwitchLinc 3-4 feet away phase A = Flashes green every second

Same test but both PLM's replacing the LL = No response

 

Added one more test, the first one except I put a LampLinc 5 feet away from the PLM on an outlet on the opposite leg and same thing, SwitchLinc (or anything) just doesn't respond anymore.  

 

Running out of devices to test it with though as I keep removing switches and what not to rule them out, so now half the house is just wires hanging out of the walls with no switches at all while I try to nail this down lol.

[jerlands]

No.  It just means that you don't have any dualband devices on the opposite leg within RF range of the PLM.

 

-Xathros

 

I think the beacon test is confounded by the different way different devices respond.  From what I've read, blinking indicates the opposite leg whereas non-blinking indicates the same leg.. and this test is specific only to dual-band devices, powerline only devices will not respond.

 

Jon..

[Teken]

Once again what type of lighting loads are on this breaker 19?!?!

 

 

Ideals are peaceful - History is violent

[ryanmead83]

Just normal house lights whatever you'd normally have, not sure what else to call them lol.  They aren't like heavy duty or anything, just normal ceiling lights you'd buy from Ikea with GU10 bulbs.  I think every light fixture I have uses GU10.  I'm not sure though, now the ISY won't even work, the memory and ERR light keep flashing and I can't access it for some reason.  Network is connected fine.  I'll have to pick this up tomorrow as right now I'm in the dark since I removed all the SwitchLincs, have to figure out what I want to do as I'm tempted to put the old switches back.  I like troubleshooting but it's this intermittent crap that is driving me crazy.  When you do the 4 tap test, get one result, leave it, do the exact same test 10 minutes later and it's totally different.  I just took the LampLinc, did the 4 tap, and one of the SwitchLinc's flashes red.  10 minutes later I do it again, didn't remove or touch anything, this time it flashes green!  Like the results just change all the time it's so weird.  Can you not force it to only use RF like Z-Wave or something?  My Z-Wave devices don't use power lines and I have no issues with them, seems like all the trouble is because it's trying to use the power lines instead of just being wireless.

[Teken]

I think the beacon test is confounded by the different way different devices respond. From what I've read, blinking indicates the opposite leg whereas non-blinking indicates the same leg.. and this test is specific only to dual-band devices, powerline only devices will not respond.

 

Jon..

Correct, some devices react exactly the way you indicated as I had to find out the hard way!

 

The latest hardware offer dual color LED's so identifying same phase / opposite phase is much easier.

 

 

Ideals are peaceful - History is violent

[stusviews]

A GU10 bulb is not what would be considered a normal ceiling light (although they're becoming more popular). A GU10 is a LED bulb, many of which are not meant to be dimmed and can cause noise that may interfere with Insteon signals. Also, having 95% of your devices on the opposite leg as circuit 19 is highly unusual as a home is normally wired with about half the devices on each opposite leg of the split, single-phase electric supply. Since most panels have an even number of breakers and you indicate circuit 19, then if you have at least 20 breakers each would have approximately 5% of the total load. Yoked (paired) breakers may alter that somewhat. You may want to reassess what each and every breaker controls.

 

Also, blinking and non-blinking across devices is not consistent across older devices, but if the responding devices have color LEDs, then green indicates that the devices are on opposite legs. Finally, if turning on circuit 19 causes difficulties, then there is something powered by that specific circuit that is problematic,

[ryanmead83]

I still consider them normal.  I've had my house for 8 years and I never purposely bought GU10 lights, they just always seemed to come that way as all the nicest ones are like that.  The only place I have normal large light bulbs are lamps and outside lights like patio and the odd light like in a closet, every other ceiling light or wall light are GU10.  They do dim though you just need the proper dimmable LED bulbs as most don't.  I bought these Jacky brand ones off Amazon and they dim just as well as the large bulbs, but all other brands I've tried would never work, just buzz or flicker.   Just did a mental count, going by bulbs only (not fixtures) I have 43 GU10 bulbs and 14 normal size bulbs, all LED.  However I got into Insteon maybe 1.5 years ago and these GU10 and LED bulbs have been here for many years before that.  We switched to LED probably 3-4 years ago back when they were super expensive and I was on an environmental kick.  If Insteon is THAT touchy that just the type of light bulbs you use will mess up your whole network, then I'm glad most of my devices are Z-Wave as it seems more reliable.  Maybe one day Insteon will finally go fully wireless and avoid this nonsense of phases and noise on the line.  What's funny is that I can have a bunch of Netgear power line Ethernet adapters running at 50-60Mbps when I do speed tests, but a simple light switch can't even connect over the power lines lol.  (And before anyone asks, I've had them since before I got Insteon, and yes I have them all unplugged while testing this and it makes no difference.  Netgear also told me when I called them the other day that these would have no negative effect on any light fixtures.)

 

Just to clarify though when I say most are on one leg vs the other, I mean that's how my devices are laid out at the moment.  Like I have 3 switches at the front door and 3 switches at the back door, and both of those are one leg.  In the middle of that are others, just coincidence that almost all my devices happen to be on the same one is all (the ones that weren't and that were LampLincs I just swapped for Insteon LED bulbs making my whole network on just one phase, and the 2 SwitchLinc's that were on the opposite I just removed and replaced with regular light switches).  That doesn't seem to be the issue though, circuit 19 seems like it was a fluke unfortunately as there doesn't seem to be a correlation anymore, or if there was then it was intermittent.  

 

I took it as a sign to pack it in for the night as I was standing downstairs looking at the breaker panel and grunted out in annoyance, and the glass table at the bottom of the stairs completely shattered!  Right out of the blue, just had a lamp on it and a bag, but somehow the glass just gave and smashed into those tiny pieces.  It's like I'm Carrie or something.

[larryllix]

A GU10 bulb is not what would be considered a normal ceiling light (although they're becoming more popular). A GU10 is a LED bulb, many of which are not meant to be dimmed and can cause noise that may interfere with Insteon signals.

....

GU10 is really only a base configuration and can be any kind of bulb technology.  Most people use GU10 halogens because of the availability and price, until late.The attempted "green" lock-in fad used GU10 sockets as an attempt to stop incandescent bulbs from being substituted a few years ago.  Many got fooled by the cheap prices and regretted it.

 

http://www.homedepot.ca/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/SearchView?catalogId=10051&storeId=10051&langId=-15&N=0&Ntt=GU10&Nty=1&D=GU10&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Dx=mode+matchallpartial&s=true

 

 

@RyanMead. If there is nothing on the breaker, just leave it off.

[ryanmead83]

Sorry I mean there's nothing Insteon on the breaker.  Almost the entire first floor is on it, so can't leave it off or no Kitchen, Power Room, or Living Room ceiling lights or outlets would work.   And right that's what I meant, just that they are typical home ceiling lights, just that take GU10 size bulbs vs the normal ones.  Was just saying they aren't fluorescent, or some kind of special light that is different from what you'd just go buy at Home Depot.

[larryllix]

Sorry I mean there's nothing Insteon on the breaker.  Almost the entire first floor is on it, so can't leave it off or no Kitchen, Power Room, or Living Room ceiling lights or outlets would work.   And right that's what I meant, just that they are typical home ceiling lights, just that take GU10 size bulbs vs the normal ones.  Was just saying they aren't fluorescent, or some kind of special light that is different from what you'd just go buy at Home Depot.

Now you need to disconnect, or turn off everything on that breaker 19 until things work,  and then methodically turn on one device at a time to find your source of rf disturbance. You'll get it. Don't give up yet.

[jerlands]

Once you get things back together and tested you might swap out the PLM since you have a spare.  I'm thinkin' the problem is with it.

 

Jon...

[larryllix]

Sorry I mean there's nothing Insteon on the breaker.  Almost the entire first floor is on it, so can't leave it off or no Kitchen, Power Room, or Living Room ceiling lights or outlets would work.   And right that's what I meant, just that they are typical home ceiling lights, just that take GU10 size bulbs vs the normal ones.  Was just saying they aren't fluorescent, or some kind of special light that is different from what you'd just go buy at Home Depot.

It is not likely it is Insteon device causing the interference.

 

I never thought to ask if these GU10 bulbs you have are 12v types with a transformer in each light fixture?

That could be a huge source of RF noise that could possibly bock your phase testing using Insteon RF signals. This could be especially true if LED lamps are installed and connected to electronic transformers inside  these light fixtures that accommodate 12 volt bulbs.

 

Try an AM radio tuned between stations and turn each light on and off. That may indicate where the problem lies quite clearly. At least for a start anyway.