Triggering IOLinc Relay with IOLinc Sensor

[Wingsy]

OK, Got it. I appreciate the discussion on this problem, people. It generated more ideas to try and one of them worked!

 

What I did:

Set the Open/Close as a scene controller.

Set the IOLinc-Relay as scene responder.

Set IOLinc to "Momentary B: Triggered by both On and Off".

Set the "Momentary Hold Time" to 30 minutes, which cannot be done via the ISY but can only be done with the Set button.

Wrote a simple ISY program "If Open/Close status is on or off then wait 30 seconds and turn off IOLinc-Relay", which re-triggers when the Open/Close changes state. The Off command sent by the ISY overrides the 30-minute timeout set in the IOLinc.

 

I should not have had to go through this to accomplish this simple little thing. I think Insteon should revisit the IOLinc firmware and allow its own sensor to work as any other sensor to control its relay.

[larryllix]

OK, Got it. I appreciate the discussion on this problem, people. It generated more ideas to try and one of them worked!

 

What I did:

Set the Open/Close as a scene controller.

Set the IOLinc-Relay as scene responder.

Set IOLinc to "Momentary B: Triggered by both On and Off".

Set the "Momentary Hold Time" to 30 minutes, which cannot be done via the ISY but can only be done with the Set button.

Wrote a simple ISY program "If Open/Close status is on or off then wait 30 seconds and turn off IOLinc-Relay", which re-triggers when the Open/Close changes state. The Off command sent by the ISY overrides the 30-minute timeout set in the IOLinc.

 

I should not have had to go through this to accomplish this simple little thing. I think Insteon should revisit the IOLinc firmware and allow its own sensor to work as any other sensor to control its relay.

I am glad this resulted in a solution for you. Agreed the I/OLinc is a bit screwy and if Insteon does change this setup I am sure nobody will find out until it doesn't work that way anymore.

 

I am a little sore right now as I just received two new DampLincs = leak sensors and on the two new units the linking button sends Dry signals whereas my older two units send Wet signals sending my wife notifications about leaks while she was away. I was testing with the two new units and it seemed safe to continue on the old units.

 

She is very sensitive to this right now,  after two washing machine spills last week, and started shopping for a newer and improved mop.

[jerlands]

OK, Got it. I appreciate the discussion on this problem, people. It generated more ideas to try and one of them worked!

 

What I did:

Set the Open/Close as a scene controller.

Set the IOLinc-Relay as scene responder.

Set IOLinc to "Momentary B: Triggered by both On and Off".

Set the "Momentary Hold Time" to 30 minutes, which cannot be done via the ISY but can only be done with the Set button.

Wrote a simple ISY program "If Open/Close status is on or off then wait 30 seconds and turn off IOLinc-Relay", which re-triggers when the Open/Close changes state. The Off command sent by the ISY overrides the 30-minute timeout set in the IOLinc.

 

 

That's great to know... at least a couple of us learned a few things playing with this.. odd though to me you didn't set for 25 seconds momentary hold?

 

 

I should not have had to go through this to accomplish this simple little thing. I think Insteon should revisit the IOLinc firmware and allow its own sensor to work as any other sensor to control its relay.

 

Insteon hosts it's own forum where you can post suggestion for improvement direct to the manufacturer   however... some of the needed development seems to be on the UDI side but I think hindered by Insteons tight grip on things.

 

 

Jon...

[Wingsy]

OK, I "got it" all right. Got snookered in with the umpteenth quirk of these sensors. (To paulbates: Same effect as you have seen.) When I hooked it up to the infrared sensor and stepped on the 1st stair the Open/Close went bananas. Continuous flashing of its LED, and it would signal the IOLinc to close its relay but the message back to the ISY telling it that it had changed state never arrived at the ISY, or was never sent. Therefore, no 30-second timeout and of course no re-triggering.

 

The infrared sensor's output, when closed, is not a dry contact closure but is an NPN (transistor) output whose ON voltage is 0.7v. This is apparently not a low enough voltage to the input for it to fully register a closure. Why it signaled the IOLinc but not the ISY is puzzling.

 

Determined to get this to work come hell or high water, I located a small 12v relay in my parts drawer and hooked it up so the infrared sensor would energize that relay, then connected that relay's N.O. contact to the Open/Close. It is now working in the stairway as I wanted.

 

Now, let's see if I can consume another 2 days of my time to get my doors to lock.

 

Thanks again folks.

[larryllix]

OK, I "got it" all right. Got snookered in with the umpteenth quirk of these sensors. (To paulbates: Same effect as you have seen.) When I hooked it up to the infrared sensor and stepped on the 1st stair the Open/Close went bananas. Continuous flashing of its LED, and it would signal the IOLinc to close its relay but the message back to the ISY telling it that it had changed state never arrived at the ISY, or was never sent. Therefore, no 30-second timeout and of course no re-triggering.

 

The infrared sensor's output, when closed, is not a dry contact closure but is an NPN (transistor) output whose ON voltage is 0.7v. This is apparently not a low enough voltage to the input for it to fully register a closure. Why it signaled the IOLinc but not the ISY is puzzling.

 

Determined to get this to work come hell or high water, I located a small 12v relay in my parts drawer and hooked it up so the infrared sensor would energize that relay, then connected that relay's N.O. contact to the Open/Close. It is now working in the stairway as I wanted.

 

Now, let's see if I can consume another 2 days of my time to get my doors to lock.

 

Thanks again folks.

Very Odd. Did you measure the output of the NPN transistor?

 

Silicon transistor open collector can pull down to almost 0 volts. This was a hard concept for many to swallow when the base to emitter voltage is pegged at aprox 0.7v.

 

Perhaps a darlington pair output.

[Wingsy]

Yes, measured it. And I agree, must be a darlington. All the specs say is "<1v @ 10ma".

[Brian H]

The Sensor On LED is on the input not logic side.

I can pull the Sensor Input low enough to have the LED light but not low enough to trigger the Sensor Input to trigger an On.

0.7 volts is around the unknown zone.

[rlanza1054]

Hi,

 

This topic seems to be inactive for the past few days.

 

But I am having a similar issue with the I/O Linc in regards to a doorbell setup.

 

First question to ask Wingsy is how did he wire up the Relay on the I/O Linc, did he connect the wires to the NC or NO plus COMMOM. It matters because if he placed the wires on the NC (Normally closed) if he checks for if its opened or closed he will get an ON. If he wires it to the NO (Normally Open) he will also get an ON.

 

Normally CLOSED means the circuit is connected all the time. the relay switch considers the load connected.

Normally OPEN means the circuit is closed all the time, the relay switch considera the load disconnected.

 

But they both report an ON status.

 

The folloeing is durectly from the manual of the 2450

 

Page 5 of 16

 

•Normally Closed – When the I/O Linc output relay is closed, its Normally Closed and Common terminals are connected
• Normally Open – When the I/O Linc output relay is open, its Normally Open and Common terminals are connected
• Common – When the I/O Linc output relay opens and closes, its Common terminal will alternate between being connected to its Normally Open and Normally Closed terminals

 

After reading his concerns it appears part of his issue is that he hooked up the wires to the incorrect option, if he originally had it wired to NC then move only that wire to NO. And reverse it if you had if opposite.

 

I didn't see that mentioned as possible solution to one of his issues.

 

But I too get what Wingsy gets, if you turn on the relay, for some reason it is causing the Sensor to go active reporting an ON condition. That ON condition is causing the relay to activate.

 

The documentation states that as a default the Sensor is disabled:

 

This is from the documentation:

 

Triggering the I/O Linc Output Relay from its Sensor Input
This feature is disabled by default.

 

This statement give the impression that the sending a ON command to the OUTPUT RELAY connecting what you have attached, in my case a doorbell, it rings the doorbell. I need to send an off command almost immediately to make the doorbell ring or sound like a normal doorbell, otherwise I would get a ding and not the dong sound. Sending the ON command triggers the first part of the operation of the doorbell, it hold the magnet closed or pushed to one side hitting the first plate, that's the ding sound. When you then send a OFF command cause the circuit to open back up releasing the magnet providing the dong sound when the magnet goes back to a resting position. Do it too slowly and the doorbell sound like ding (count the seconds and then) dong sound. Understand?

 

However, what is happening, it that when you turn on the relay, its causing the Sensor input to go active causing the relay to turn on a second unintentional time.

 

As I said, the documentation reads like by default it will not do that, but it is.

 

One has to wonder if the ISY when it adds the I/O Linc it is actually enabling this feature without realizing it. I feel the only way to test this theory out is to hookup the I/O Linc to the Insteon Hub and see how it react with the Hub controlling it.

 

Again, after doing a lot of reading, it seems that I read somewhere and haven't been able to find where I read it, that Insteon recommends, make that insists that you can only use a I/O Linc to do one or the other. Either using the Sensor to pick up the incoming external signal (in my case with the use of the ELK-930) or to use it to Output a signal to the Relay switch, but not both. That you are required to use two separate I/O Linc's on for the Sensor and the other for the Output Relay.

 

That seems a bit much to have to do that but it actually might be the solution to both Wingsy and my situations.

 

Oh, I should say that that you can actually watch the Status LED on the I/O Linc, because when you turn on the Output Relay the Green Status LED for the Sensor lights up green. It should not be doing this if indeed the Sensor is not following the Output, the  default factory setting. But it does, very bright green! And I'm not talking about the SET button's LED on the side of the I/O Linc, I am talking about the Status LED down near the Sensor input wiring connections, ight next to the 3.5mm input jack.

 

I did a work around by disabling the program after a certain amount of repeats. I do have on back order a second I/O Linc, so that might be a solution as well.

 

But in the meantime I think I will test it out using the Insteon Hub just for woohaa's.

 

Thank you.

 

Rob

 

PS I re-read some of thde thfread and you do indeed talk about making sure he was connected to the correct terminal, but I don't think Wingsy understood what you meant going by his reply. Maybe he will get something out of it the way I worded my post.

[Wingsy]

Rianza: Like you, I couldn't get the IOLinc's sensor to control the IOLinc's relay the way the user manual stated. I wired up my relay (the one I added) to the Open/Close sensor's external input terminals, and made that a scene controller to activate the IOLinc relay. I'm not using the IOLinc's sensor at all.

 

I wired up my stairway lights to the IOLinc's Common and N.O. contacts. When the Open/Close (scene controller) sends an ON command to the IOLinc, that connection is closed and my lights turn on. 30 seconds later my ISY program sends an OFF command and the lights turn off.

 

You should be able to use a similar setup but without the need for a program in the ISY. In your case I would think that setting a duration in the IOLinc to 1 second and using Momentary A would give you the ding and dong. When you use Momentary A, choosing whether an ON or an OFF command triggers the IOLinc's relay is something I never quite figured out how to do. 

[LeeG]

Wingsy

 

As an FYI, using a Scene (as all information in Owners Manual assumes use of a Scene) with the I/O Linc Relay as Responder and in Momentary A.  With the Scene Relay Responder On Level set to 100%, On command turns Relay On.  With the Scene Relay Responder On Level set to 0% the Off command turns the Relay On.

 

In case you ever need Momentary A for something.

[rlanza1054]

I have it set or Momentary B, per instruction for Doorbell.

 

Maybe you should look at how that is setup and consider your lights the doorbell switch.

 

Here is a link to that manual:

 

http://cache-m2.smarthome.com/manuals/24950a6-qsg.pdf

​

To help you out:

 

Originally, when I first setup the I/O Linc with the doorbell, I worked with the sensor first.

 

I added the I/O Linc to the ISY after I had the ELK-930 wired up to the IOLinc.

 

Then I created a scene called doorbell rung, which active an ON command someone pushed the hardwired doorbell.

 

The (red) IOLinc 'Sensor' (not the (blue) IOLinc RELAY goes into the scene as a CONTROLLER and you can not change that, it has to be a controller.

 

I then put a light, for an example a dimmer switch that controls my Foyer light. That goes in as a responder.

 

Now if the doorbell is rung with the physical button, the doorbell rings and the light goes on for as long as I am holding the doorbell switch pushed in.

 

This is how it works for me when using the IOLinc set to momentary B setting.

 

I am attaching a screenshot of the options I have set for the I/O Linc.

 

 

But because I wanted the light to stay on longer and flash multiple times I wrote a program instead of using the scene.

 

Here is basically what I wrote:

 

Doorbell IO Linc Rung - [iD 0022][Parent 0001][Not Enabled]

 

If
        Control 'DoorBell IO Linc-Sensor' is switched On
 
Then
        Repeat 3 times
           Set 'DoorBell IO Linc-Relay' Fast On
           Set 'Foyer Dimmer' On
           Wait  3 seconds
           Set 'DoorBell IO Linc-Relay' Fast Off
           Set 'Foyer Dimmer' Off
        Repeat 1 times
           Set 'Foyer Dimmer' Off
           Set 'DoorBell IO Linc-Relay' Off
 
Else
        Set 'Foyer Dimmer' Off
 

My program needs work but I wanted to show you what I did.

​

Now lets move to what I did with the I/O Linc RELAY

 

I am planning on using the I/O Linc's RELAY function to ring the doorbell using a motion sensor (something you wanted to do)

 

So I first tried creating a scene called Doorbell 'Ring' (the Sensor scene was named 'rung'). This would be used as I said to get an Insteon device trigger the I/O linc's RELAY switch to turn ON, hence closing the circuit to ring the doorbell instead of the physical switch that was done with the sensor part of the I/O Linc.

 

I added the (blue) I/O Linc RELAY to the Scene again called Doorbell Ring, it can only go in this time as a RESPONDER (the opposite of the Sensor and cannot be changed).

 

I now added the Motion Sensor into the Scene  that I just added I/O LINC RELAY as a responder, it goes in as a Controller.

 

I should point out that at first to make things simple for testing since you need to constantly hit the SET button that it inside the Motion Sensor's battery compartment for every change you make, I used a plug in lamp module. That gave me easy access to the set button if I needed it but more importantly access to a ON button and an OFF button. Again just for testing.

 

(Remember with these battery operated sensors, you need to put them manually into a communications mode to be able to take the changes/links, etc. And you press and hold that set button until it flashes its LED, to end the communications mode you need to tap twice. tapping once makes the LED do a fast flash of its LED)

 

So now if I turn the On button on the lamp module or the motion sensor sends its ON command because it got triggered by someone walking in front of the sensor, that ON command sends a signal to the I/O Linc RELAY to closed the circuit (assuming you are wired to the NO and COM) which in my case rings the Doorbell.​

 

Again, I still have the I/O Linc set for Momentary B. (I'm repeating this statementfor a reason which I explain later in the post).

 

And with the Scene and not using any programs here is what I get:

 

Whoops! Forgot to tell you exactly how I wired the Doorbell to the I/O Linc.

 

I added a wire from the Doorbell's power supply (which is a 16 volt VAC, bear in mind the only thing the RELAY is doing is closed or opening the circuit, in other words turning on the switch or turning it off, in my case a doorbell. Remember you can only run up to 5A @ 30 volts AC or DC through the RELAY.

 

When I send an ON command via the Motion Sensor, it will ring the doorbell.

 

Prior to this evening, I was then sending an OFF command to open the RELAY or turn off the switch.

 

The timing of how long the RELAY will stay active or CLOSED in the case, keeping a device ON is the time  you have set in the OPTION settings of the I/O Linc.

 

The I/O Linc's options settings are the same if you accessed them via the Sensor or the RELAY, it is the same, you cannot have two different OPTION settings for each mod.  SENSOR and RELAY read the same OPTIONS settings.

 

So with a doorbell, I only want the RELAY CLOSED (ON) for a faction of a second. But it can be set for 0 to 25 seconds.

 

I figured out tonight that having the I/O linc set for Momentary B, there was never any need to send an OFF command to the RELAY. it would automatically OPEN (turn itself off what ever was attached to the RELAY).

 

So my program that I showed you what I wrote, can be altered by removing all the set I/O Linc Relay OFF. There never was any need for it.

 

But because I want something different than the doorbell ringing just once when someone walked in front of the sensor or an ON command was sent from a ON/OFF module.

 

I need to write a program.

 

I wanted the doorbell to ring 3 times and flash the lights 3 times.

 

Doorbell IO Linc Rung - [iD 0022][Parent 0001][Not Enabled]

 

If
        Control 'Door Motion Sensor' is switched On
 
Then
        Repeat 3 times
           Set 'DoorBell IO Linc-Relay' Fast On
           Set 'Foyer Dimmer' On
           Wait  3 seconds
           Set 'DoorBell IO Linc-Relay' Fast Off
           Set 'Foyer Dimmer' Off
        Repeat 1 times
           Set 'Foyer Dimmer' Off
           Set 'DoorBell IO Linc-Relay' Off
 
Else
        Set 'Foyer Dimmer' Off
 

 

This is basically the same program as above but here the Motion Sensor is what is activating the doorbell via the I/O Linc Relay.

 

Of course, I need to clean up this program since made my new discovery tonight that I no longer need to add the "Set 'DoorBell IO Linc-Relay' Fast Off", it will turn off automatically when the duration time is reached. That duration time is set via Option settings.

 

Again, remember I am set for Momentary B.

 

Here is one very interesting thing that I also verified tonight:

 

Even though the manual states that the duration can be set from 2 seconds to 30 seconds, it seems not to be the case.

 

With the ISY, you can set for 0.0 and increments of 0.1 seconds up to 0.9 seconds and from there up to 25 seconds.

 

But here is the kicker, using the Insteon HUB, it can go from 0.20 seconds all the way up to 105 MINUTES. ​

 

Did you get that, it can be set for 105 minutes!!!! Not the max of 25 seconds?

 

So what gives? Why can you do this with the Insteon HUB and not the ISY?

 

And I am going to post a screenshot from my phone that I took that lists all the available options for the I/O Linc that are provided through the HUB. And the screenshot is not showing the complete list of available I/O Linc options, I just couldn't fit it on one screenshot. if interested I can try and post the other options with additional screen shots at another time.

 

 

FYI: Everything I showed you want I did originally, I actually did again while composing this post just to make sure I did not leave out any detail. It all got tested again tonight.

 

Tomorrow I will go back and correct my programs and re-test them, maybe in doing so I will solve my issue. but I wrote this out to help Wingsy see exactly what I did so he might be able to track down his problems, if they still exist. So I'm sorry I got long winded, I wanted to include everything.

 

Rob

 

PS just noticed that another post came in while I was composing this message to post.

 

Yes, it does seem that Insteon is not being fair to UDI and not providing them with all the various options for the I/O Linc and other devices that I have talked about. And yes, I actually will post this over on Insteon forums so maybe that can answer why they are not providing complete development specs. Is what I am encountering (missing Option settings) hurting UDI, when UDI has propelled Insteon in so many ways?