Best way to create, control scene with three way switch setup?

[manowell]

I have two 2744D dual band SwithcLinc dimmers that I've retrofitted into a closet following the instructions that came with them for a three way installation.  (Identifying the load side, the line side, capping off unused traveler wire, etc.)

 

These have been installed and working well, but not controlled by a scene, for around 18 months.

 

Following the suggestion on the wiki, I put both switches into a scene (as responders) that's controlled by a RemoteLinc 2 button that will turn them on by bringing both to 50% with a 2 second ramp with another scene to take them back to 0% the same way.

 

Executing the scene works a cycle or two, then one of the switches (The line side) "freezes up", won't respond or operate anymore.  I'm suspecting that I'm not configuring this the best way and the two switches are fighting each other somehow.

[manowell]

Pulling out the reset button for 3-4 seconds fixed it once, but not the second time.  Holding off on a full reset of the switch until have get better advice. 

[LeeG]

What type load are the 2477D SwitchLinc Dimmers controlling?

 

It was not necessary to create another ISY Scene to have a RemoteLinc2 control the SwitchLincs.

 

I would expect the SwitchLincs to be Controllers in a Scene

 

Scenexxxx

SwitchLinc1 - Controller

SwitchLinc2 - Controller

 

To this ISY Scene add the RemoteLinc2

 

Scenexxxx

SwitchLinc1 - Controller

SwitchLinc2 - Controller
RemoteLinc2 button - Controller

 

The On Level and Ramp Rate for the RemoteLinc2 button would be 50% On level with 2 second Ramp Rate.  This would have no affect on On Level and Ramp Rate for when the SwitchLincs are used as a Controller or the Scenexxxx is used in an ISY Program. 

[ScottAvery]

It sounds like you used Insteon button presses to set the pairing originally. And now you have created one or more new scenes through the ISY interface.  Are you are saying that eventually the device fails to respond even to local button presses? I am sure Lee could better speak to that issue than I.

 

I believe the generally accepted advice is to factory reset all devices before adding to ISY, and to then add them to the ISY using the remove all links command for good measure, then build all scenes through the ISY.  That is the only way for the ISY to be aware of the state of the scene as the PLM is a hidden member of every scene thus created.  No telling what conflicts you may have otherwise.  You can compare the device links table to the ISY links table to see what the differences are now.

[manowell]

What type load are the 2477D SwitchLinc Dimmers controlling?

 

It was not necessary to create another ISY Scene to have a RemoteLinc2 control the SwitchLincs.

 

I would expect the SwitchLincs to be Controllers in a Scene

 

Scenexxxx

SwitchLinc1 - Controller

SwitchLinc2 - Controller

 

To this ISY Scene add the RemoteLinc2

 

Scenexxxx

SwitchLinc1 - Controller

SwitchLinc2 - Controller

RemoteLinc2 button - Controller

 

The On Level and Ramp Rate for the RemoteLinc2 button would be 50% On level with 2 second Ramp Rate.  This would have no affect on On Level and Ramp Rate for when the SwitchLincs are used as a Controller or the Scenexxxx is used in an ISY Program. 

 

I think they're all LED now, but the closet set may be halogens.  No CFLs anywhere on the property.

 

They weren't in a scene before, so I must have linked them per the Insteon "install a three way switch" instructions.

 

I'm factory resetting the four devices which are involved in the circuits.  The two devices freezing up are in both cases the line side of the circuit.  In both cases the load sides of the circuits remain operational.  I'm not sure if that's indicative of anything or not.

[manowell]

 

Scenexxxx

SwitchLinc1 - Controller

SwitchLinc2 - Controller

RemoteLinc2 button - Controller

 

 

for clarification, why would the two SwitchLincs be Controllers and not Responders? 

[LeeG]

A device that can function as a Controller and Responder is usually defined as a Controller.  It will function as a Responder when needed, as in a 3-way configuration.

 

The LEDs may be an issue.  Some LEDs function on a Dimmer even though not supported.  Bringing the devices to 50% with a 2 second ramp rate can cause the device to lock up.

 

If linked manually the SwitchLincs must have been added to the ISY with the "keep existing links" option or the manual linking was done after the SwitchLincs.  If the manual linking was done after adding to the ISY the manual links will eventually be lost as the ISY would not know about them.

[manowell]

A device that can function as a Controller and Responder is usually defined as a Controller.  It will function as a Responder when needed, as in a 3-way configuration.

 

The LEDs may be an issue.  Some LEDs function on a Dimmer even though not supported.  Bringing the devices to 50% with a 2 second ramp rate can cause the device to lock up.

 

If linked manually the SwitchLincs must have been added to the ISY with the "keep existing links" option or the manual linking was done after the SwitchLincs.  If the manual linking was done after adding to the ISY the manual links will eventually be lost as the ISY would not know about them.

 

I have a scene for "On" and a scene for "Off".  It looks like the Admin Console doesn't want to let me add the same device as Controller to two scenes, it want's to make them Responders in the other.

 

The closet lights are 4 x Cree 2700K 800 lumen 13.5W lamps.  Would changing the ramp rate to instantaneous help, do you think?

 

Right now all the links are gone, they're in factory reset and freshly added to Admin Console with "delete links" state.  The load side devices are controlling the lights, the line side devices are not.

[LeeG]

I cannot say what will stop the devices from locking up short of using a supported load.  Some LEDs do work with a Dimmer, some LEDs of the same type may not work.  Changing the Ramp Rate may help, it may not.  Hate to be so noncommittal but that is the nature of using an unsupported load.  May folks use LEDs with the only issue they cannot be dimmed past a certain percentage.  Others have issues that make the LEDs not usable on a Dimmer.   

 

Insteon allows a device to be a Controller of only one Scene.  The Admin Console is simply implementing an Insteon requirement.  It makes sense when Insteon operation is understood.  What is unique about the On Scene versus the Off Scene.

[ScottAvery]

The two devices freezing up are in both cases the line side of the circuit.  In both cases the load sides of the circuits remain operational.  I'm not sure if that's indicative of anything or not.

 

This scares me a little.  Do you have devices on the load side of another device?  All the devices should be wired in series, black to black to black, white to white to white...  The red only connects to the fixture/bulb.

 

I have a scene for "On" and a scene for "Off".  It looks like the Admin Console doesn't want to let me add the same device as Controller to two scenes, it want's to make them Responders in the other.

The behavior is correct and as we would expect.  You can only control one scene directly with a button (unless you create programs) and that is going to be the "On" Scene.  You could create an Off scene if you like, but it could only be used by a program or other unused button on another device.  Your hard buttons, the switches themselves, would be controllers of the On scene, and pushing off on those switches will in fact turn them off.  All scenes can be turned off without any special coding.  On levels and ramp rates can be set for the On scene, and customized for each controller in the scene, and the ramp rate set for the On command gets used when the given controller signals off.

 

This is an annoying element of the design of the Insteon protocol where there is no distinction between a preset scene and a device grouping. A "scene" is both.

[manowell]

Insteon allows a device to be a Controller of only one Scene.  The Admin Console is simply implementing an Insteon requirement.  It makes sense when Insteon operation is understood.  What is unique about the On Scene versus the Off Scene.

 

Nothing other than the target on and off  states.

 

For this conversation, I have device "A" (2477D DB SwitchLinc Dimmer) which is line side device in a three way circuit.  I have device "B", same hardware, which is the load side in the same circuit.

 

With everything cleared and re-added, the B switch is operating the load fine, the A device is doing nothing.

 

As it see it, tasks are:

1. Through the Admin Console, is have the A device control the load too. (presumably by having it control the B device?)
2. Have a RemoteLinc 2 button (currently in 8-scene non-toggle mode) control that scene as well.
3. Have a second button on the same RemoteLinc 2 control a scene to turn the lights off.

Or is there a better way?

 

I'd like to learn more about the controller/responder relationship.

[LeeG]

1. Use this Scene

 

Scenexxxx

SwitchLinc1 - Controller

SwitchLinc2 - Controller

 

When SwitchLinc1 is operated, SwitchLinc2 functions as a Responder

 

When SwitchLinc2 is operated, SwitchLinc1 functions as a Responxder

 

This is the best/normal way to cross-link SwitchLinc1 and SwitchLinc2

 

For 2. and 3. need to know the uniqueness of the On Scene versus the Off Scene. .  If the RemoteLinc2 is in non-toggle mode for some other reason, then two buttons can be used or a Program that switches between the On Scene and Off Scene (if two Scenes are needed) or simply cycles between On and Off commands.  

[stusviews]

manowell, the Insteon protocol does not allow separating on and off from the same paddle/button. Only a program can do that.

 

ScottAvery, info only: black to black and white to white is parallel wiring.

[manowell]

manowell, the Insteon protocol does not allow separating on and off from the same paddle/button. Only a program can do that.

 

ScottAvery, info only: black to black and white to white is parallel wiring.

 

 

Is it not possible to have a scene "Night" with light A at 50%, light B at 75%, scene "Day" with both A and B at 100%, and scene "All off" with both at 0%?  Three buttons?  From what you're describing, this isn't possible.

 

What would the function of the "8-Scene non-Toggle" configuration for a RemoteLinc 2 be?

 

Just trying to understand....

[LeeG]

No problem using three RemoteLinc2 buttons to drive those three Scenes.  Each RemoteLinc2 button can drive a different Scene or even drive the same Scene that has different Responder values for each RemoteLinc2 button.  Is that what you want to do with the RemoteLinc2 buttons?

 

If not please explain what configuration you would like to have. 

[manowell]

No problem using three RemoteLinc2 buttons to drive those three Scenes.  Is that what you want to do with the RemoteLinc2?

 

If not please explain what configuration you would like to have. 

 

Yeah, that's basically it.  Trying to get the configuration right on the pairs of three-way switches so they're not arguing.

[manowell]

Yeah, that's basically it.  Trying to get the configuration right on the pairs of three-way switches so they're not arguing.

 

To further elaborate on stuff above:

 

I would build an "On" scene and an "Off" scene.  Based on advice above, I'd add both switches as CONTROLLERS, not RESPONDERS, which is what would seem more intuitive to me.  Fine, that works.  When I go to build my second scene (the off scene), I can't add the switches as controllers again, because they've already been used as such in the "on" scene.

[LeeG]

Sorry but I don't understand "arguing".

 

Scenexxxx

SwitchLinc1 - Controller

SwitchLinc2 - Controller
RemoteLinc2 button x - Controller - SwitchLinc1 Responder 50%, SwitchLinc2 Responder 75%

RemoteLinc2 button y - Controller - SwitchLinc1 Responder 100%, SwitchLinc2 Responder 100% 

RemoteLinc2 button z - Controller - SwitchLinc1 Responder 0%, SwitchKinc2 Responder 0%

 

The SwitchLincs would have a unique On Level/Ramp Rate for each RemoteLinc2 button, assuming the RemoteLinc2 buttons are controlling the SwitchLincs.

 

If the RemoteLinc2 buttons are controlling something else the buttons would be in a different ISY Scene with the appropriate devices.  

[LeeG]

Now I am confused, I thought there were three RemoteLinc2 buttons with various Responder settings.

 

Please identify the RemoteLinc2 buttons and what devices they are controlling.

 

It is not difficult to configure once I know what buttons and devices.

[Techman]

manowell, seems it would be easier to create two scenes, one with 50% and one with 75% on levels and use one button on the remotelinc in the toggle mode to turn the respective scene on or off, then there would be no need for an off scene.

[manowell]

Sorry but I don't understand "arguing".

 

 

My initial attempt had the two switches in question manually linked per Insteon paper "three way switch install" instructions -- i.e., INSY ignorant.  When I added the two to a scene as responders then added a button as a controller, hitting the button worked, but the line ends of the switches chattered, blinked, and would eventually lock up.  That's what I'm calling "arguing", some instructional or electronic interference.  A reset of the switches would work temporarily, that's what got me asking, "How SHOULD I do it?" here.

 

Other than generally wanting to learn better techniques, I haven't had any issues with doing this stuff (my topology report has 78 rows in it), but I'm pretty new to good INSY technique and have NO idea about how smart switches retrofitted to hardwired three-way circuits should be expected to live long and prosper.

[stusviews]

A single button or paddle can control one and only one scene. If you send an On, then the responder can be set to on or off, or in the case of a dimmer, to any level between 0% and 100%. That's because there are varying degrees of on, part-way on, half-way on, fully on, for example. But, there are no levels of off. Off is off. The door is either closed or it is not.

 

Because a button or paddle can be a controller of only one scene and On and Off cannot be separated, each of On and Off must control the same devices. But, you can use programs to separate On and Off with each controlling the same and/or different responders.

[manowell]

Sorry but I don't understand "arguing".

 

Scenexxxx

SwitchLinc1 - Controller

SwitchLinc2 - Controller

RemoteLinc2 button x - Controller - SwitchLinc1 Responder 50%, SwitchLinc2 Responder 75%

RemoteLinc2 button y - Controller - SwitchLinc1 Responder 100%, SwitchLinc2 Responder 100% 

RemoteLinc2 button z - Controller - SwitchLinc1 Responder 0%, SwitchKinc2 Responder 0%

 

The SwitchLincs would have a unique On Level/Ramp Rate for each RemoteLinc2 button, assuming the RemoteLinc2 buttons are controlling the SwitchLincs.

 

If the RemoteLinc2 buttons are controlling something else the buttons would be in a different ISY Scene with the appropriate devices.  

 

What you show makes sense to me.  I've got to figure out how to DO what's indicated by the stuff highlighted in blue.

[stusviews]

Nothing in how you link the device should cause chatter. Only the load or wiring can cause that.

 

... and have NO idea about how smart switches retrofitted to hardwired three-way circuits should be expected to live long and prosper.

 

Retrofitted switches in a 3-way configuration should behave as the switches they replaced with the exception that they don't toggle (top vs. bottom) to turn the load on of off. top is always on, bottom is always off. But, they should not "argue."

 

All of the SwitchLincs should have line and neutral, but only one should be connected to the load. The other two SwitchLinc load wires should be capped. Is that how they're wired?

[LeeG]

Scenexxxx

SwitchLinc1 - Controller

SwitchLinc2 - Controller
RemoteLinc2 button x - Controller - SwitchLinc1 Responder 50%, SwitchLinc2 Responder 75%

RemoteLinc2 button y - Controller - SwitchLinc1 Responder 100%, SwitchLinc2 Responder 100% 

RemoteLinc2 button z - Controller - SwitchLinc1 Responder 0%, SwitchKinc2 Responder 0%

 

Click on RemoteLinc2 button x..  SwitchLinc1 and SwitchLinc2 display on the bottom, right side.  The On Level and Ramp Rate field values for these "Responders" are displayed as sliders which can be set as desired.  These On Level and Ramp Rate values apply when button x is pressed.

 

Each RemoteLinc2 button has its own unique On Level and Ramp Rate values for the button Responders.