Blackbird Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 I have an ISY and quite a few insteon sensors and lights and currently have a ge simon alarm system. I have been wanting to get rid of my land line and use an Ethernet connection and possibly get rid of the monitoring service. I have a few questions about ELK if you guys don't mind. 1. What are some of the cool examples that can be done when combining ISY/Insteon and the ELK alarm system? 2. If the ELK is connected to Ethernet, is there a way of the system to call me or just text and email? 3. Does ELK have its own app or would you use something like mobilink? 4. Are other sensors (like my ge motion sensor and door sensors) compatible with ELK? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWareman Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 Some answers inline..... I have an ISY and quite a few insteon sensors and lights and currently have a ge simon alarm system. I have been wanting to get rid of my land line and use an Ethernet connection and possibly get rid of the monitoring service. I have a few questions about ELK if you guys don't mind. 1. What are some of the cool examples that can be done when combining ISY/Insteon and the ELK alarm system? I have my Elk monitoring my backup sump charger, as well as monitoring and controlling my garage door. I have the ISY doing some custom arm commands, bypassing certain interior zones before doing an arm away (we use this when we are going out, but my Daughter want to stay home.... It makes her feel safer). 2. If the ELK is connected to Ethernet, is there a way of the system to call me or just text and email? No. You need a phone line (or cellular adapter) to make phone calls. 3. Does ELK have its own app or would you use something like mobilink? No native mobile app. ElkRP is the programming software for Windows. It's free once you register your Elk - and it needs the Ethernet adapter. Mobilinc (IOS only) has an optional module. On Android, there are no good options (since SSL got disabled). I use Tasked and a custom scene to call the ISY REST api to control my Elk from my Android phone. 4. Are other sensors (like my ge motion sensor and door sensors) compatible with ELK? Yes, but you need the approximate wireless receiver module for the Elk. I have a mix of GE and Elk sensors, and have both wireless modules for my Elk. I know there are a couple of other technologies as well. You should know that Elk wireless is two way supervised. Other technologies are one way unsupervised. Thanks Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 I have been wanting to get rid of my land line and use an Ethernet connection and possibly get rid of the monitoring service. I would humbly advise you not to remove the CS monitoring. It goes with out saying the value of a monitored security alarm system can not be measured until called upon. You have insurance on many things such as your vehicle, home, cottage, life, equipment, etc. Most Insurance companies offer discounts for having a monitored security alarm system in the home. As this helps reduce risk and loss to them and to you which they pass along the saving to you immediately as a lower yearly premium. The other aspect and intangible is someone else is on duty 24.7.365 tasked with only one goal and that is to ensure life and property is safe and sound. People need to realize and be honest about self monitoring and how far it can be taken and what outcomes will be present should it go wrong. Everyone has to sleep, no? Do people not take vacations? They may not be in cell range? Any millions of real world possibilities are present and there - just waiting to happen. If this is about finances then again if a person should shop around he would find several companies that offer cheap, affordable, and highly trained CS agents at the ready for $9.99 - 24.99 per year. The reality is (IF) where you live is so low risk like living out in the country side and have great neighbors just live life like everybody else and have nothing. But truth be told the value and peace of mind knowing someone else is at the ready to render assistance should you fall ill (heart attack / stroke ), break in, hold up, sump failure, leak detection, low temp alert, etc. In my mind worth the dollars invested every year . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackbird Posted November 19, 2015 Author Share Posted November 19, 2015 Thanks for the replies and examples. I probably will keep the monitoring but need to ditch the land line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackbird Posted November 24, 2015 Author Share Posted November 24, 2015 In terms of monitoring, what options are available for the ELK to monitor without a land line? Cellular? Ethernet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottmichaelj Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 In terms of monitoring, what options are available for the ELK to monitor without a land line? Cellular? Ethernet? You can do both - internet primary with a Telguard or similar for cell backup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 Things to consider and to expand on what huddadudda has indicated above. Ethernet in its pure sense for a CS (Central Station) means the data and the health of the system comes over TCP IP. This data goes to a dedicated box which receives the TCP IP transmission. This is not the same as VOIP telephony or simply going to a website. Cellular needs to be confirmed and validated as fully operational in the (actual) final placement as working and with a strong cellular signal. Many if not all installs are placed in the basement and this reduces the effective signal that can be sent / received. Even though I don't recommend just using a cell phone as a final indicator. It is a good way (generally) to determine if the area of install will pose a problem. The final say will be what you see when you install the cellular back up system. Lastly, regardless of who you talk to do not power such devices via the main panel. These systems must be backed up by their very own battery back up system which should be monitored for both heart beat, breach, and loss of signal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottmichaelj Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 Just to add most cellular units also have a detachable antenna connection so if quality is poor and depending on the home there is a possibility to move the antenna into an attic, outside or just change it all together a pure higher db style found on eBay. Edit: Look at Cradlepoint. They sell cell data/phone (not VOIP compatible) devices so you could also have a backup wifi data in the home if wanted. I am going to be replacing my HAI C3 soon with a combo Cadlepoint myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 Other things to consider and this has nothing to do with ELK in itself but more about practical things to consider. Ensure you install a key pad in the master bedroom as this avoids the whole gong show of running to the front door. Can you imagine the alarm goes off and your first reaction is to run out of your (safe) bedroom to see WTF is going on? Wrong . . . Also a dedicated panic / hold up button should be installed in the closet but at a hands reach when needed. Next, all sensors and zones need to be wired with a EOL (end of line) resistor at the sensor - zone. Do not let anyone tell you its OK to install or place them at the can (control board). The EOL-R is placed on sensors / zones to help the system determine if the sensor or line has been compromised. Whether it be open, shorted, or intersected using various wiring techniques. The system monitors the known resistance of the sensor / zone. Adhere to all maximum wire lengths and do the load calculations for current draw. Do not exceed or pass the 80% threshold of current ampacity or wire length resistance. Doing so will result in random faults and inconsistent operations of any security alarm system. Always perform a annual load test on the system to validate the back up battery system in place meets the minimum run time. Almost all installations (do not) install a tamper plunger in the can to detect the main panel door being opened. Don't be a statistic and do the very same . . . If you intend to follow all or most of the UL / cUL rules that govern a commercial security alarm install like I have. Be prepared to change your lifestyle and add extra funds to meet those goals. It should be noted that most if not all cans are simply secured with screws. Don't do that, but supplement them with real security screws along with a key tumbler lock. If you're eager like me you can take the extra step and install the entire system behind a *Push & Slide* false wall. Doing so prevents anyone from finding the alarm panel and disabling it in short order. Note, this is one area where I purposely strayed from the UL / cUL rules. As it must be accessible per their requirement(s) but I didn't care because its my freaking home and I waited until I got the pass certificate anyways! Ha . . . As indicated there are many local and national monitoring CS services. Do not summarily go for the lowest price / highest price as it doesn't matter what they ask for. It comes down to real world service and how they respond to your situation / condition. All users (key holders) should be annually reviewed and passwords changed. You should (assuming) you want to enable such a feature have hold up & duress enabled. 99% of the populace have never done this or spoken to their CS about their duress pass phrase or alarm code. Don't let any of these CS stations nickel and dime you to monitor: break in, low temp, flood, fire, panic, duress / hold up, etc. There isn't a magical unicorn at the other end of the line it reports all the same to the CS with just different action codes. Be aware that UL / cUL requirements either limit or enable features not common in a residential install. Keeping in mind if you fall under a UL / cUL monitored service there are certain actions that can not be disabled or how the call is handled. Meaning if there is a fire condition because you didn't turn on the kitchen vent or had a nice steamy shower and the smoke alarm goes off. No matter what you say to the CS they are mandated to call out a fire truck. Why is that a big deal? Well because some places in NA charge for false alarms etc. Also some places fine people who are habitual in doing so! A feature to avoid such an incident is fire delay before send notification. Essentially the panel is programmed to give you a certain amount of delay time before the fire signal is sent to the CS. This time delay is fixed for UL / cUL installs but this should be something you consider when programming your system. Another feature which 99% of the populace fail to know or enable (assuming) its available on the panel is *Ring Back*. A ring back happens about 10-15 seconds once the system has been armed / disarmed. This essentially tells you the signal has arrived and received by the CS station. I can't even begin to tell you how many people are under the belief all is well and if a fire, smoke, Co, what ever condition is present that the signal actually goes to a human being. Keep in mind this has nothing to do with the line monitoring feature which is separate and also important. Line monitoring detects the line is live and active at all times which is also different from the polling time from the system to the CS. Each system is polled for a heart beat, all is well status, and connected line. Other key features to keep in mind is how long the siren will operate in any given scenario. Many people leave the system at the default 4 minute time limit. You of course will follow all local ordinances and laws that govern your area but some key tips are the following. Even though the 4 minute is basic in most places it has no relations to the amount of cycles. Some places have noise abatement laws which limit the amount of cycles but in most cases 2-4 cycles are permitted. Meaning your system is allowed to wail for 4 minutes long, and repeat for another 2-4 cycles. Ha . . . Again, because I fall under much stricter rules many of these policy, rules, do not apply to me. But having said this there are some conditions where I believe the siren, strobe, lights, should just keep going on. Which brings me to the second alternative is if your area says you can't have that thing wailing for 36 hours. Nothing is stopping you from having your strobe lights, or exterior lights flashing until help arrives. Not only does this serve to alert those around you it helps EMS, Fire, Police in knowing which house is in distress! Other things to keep in mind are how the system will react when a condition arises. In different areas UL / cUL requires that every trouble - fault be acknowledged by key holder. Why is this a good - bad thing? Well, if your system is plagued with issues by the time you clear the key pad 2059 will have arrived! Also, some faults are not allowed to be cleared until they are actually resolved while others will not allow you to arm the system until safe to do so. This is important because the hassle to (human) is high when things arent working as expected. I always encourage people to use the default settings and integrate more stringent rules and policies (IF) they believe their lifestyle can do so. It should be noted that most systems have two sets of user access when programming. Your first task once the system is fully operational is to lock out the installer code from being changed. Next is to enable two form authentication assuming this fits into your lifestyle and you see benefits in doing so. Most alarm systems allow only 6 digits for a password while more robust systems allow up to 24. Normally 24 is reserved for two form authentication and most use a pass key then the 6-12 digit pass code. Some systems do not allow you to enable the * field disable. This feature essentially prevents all key presses from showing up which translates to a person not being able to see how many digits are entered. This is why many UL / cUL installs are a complete pain in the aszz because the button press beep is also disabled so a person listening also can not count how many times a person has pounded the key. If you enable these features be cognoscente as to what you're doing. Because other stringent features are those that lock a person out after XXX attempts and for XXX minutes, hours, etc. While many if not all residential installs do not invoke a send on password failure if ever. Just some things to consider as you move forward . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackbird Posted November 24, 2015 Author Share Posted November 24, 2015 Other things to consider and this has nothing to do with ELK in itself but more about practical things to consider. Ensure you install a key pad in the master bedroom as this avoids the whole gong show of running to the front door. Can you imagine the alarm goes off and your first reaction is to run out of your (safe) bedroom to see WTF is going on? Wrong . . . Also a dedicated panic / hold up button should be installed in the closet but at a hands reach when needed. Next, all sensors and zones need to be wired with a EOL (end of line) resistor at the sensor - zone. Do not let anyone tell you its OK to install or place them at the can (control board). The EOL-R is placed on sensors / zones to help the system determine if the sensor or line has been compromised. Whether it be open, shorted, or intersected using various wiring techniques. The system monitors the known resistance of the sensor / zone. Adhere to all maximum wire lengths and do the load calculations for current draw. Do not exceed or pass the 80% threshold of current ampacity or wire length resistance. Doing so will result in random faults and inconsistent operations of any security alarm system. Always perform a annual load test on the system to validate the back up battery system in place meets the minimum run time. Almost all installations (do not) install a tamper plunger in the can to detect the main panel door being opened. Don't be a statistic and do the very same . . . If you intend to follow all or most of the UL / cUL rules that govern a commercial security alarm install like I have. Be prepared to change your lifestyle and add extra funds to meet those goals. It should be noted that most if not all cans are simply secured with screws. Don't do that, but supplement them with real security screws along with a key tumbler lock. If you're eager like me you can take the extra step and install the entire system behind a *Push & Slide* false wall. Doing so prevents anyone from finding the alarm panel and disabling it in short order. Note, this is one area where I purposely strayed from the UL / cUL rules. As it must be accessible per their requirement(s) but I didn't care because its my freaking home and I waited until I got the pass certificate anyways! Ha . . . As indicated there are many local and national monitoring CS services. Do not summarily go for the lowest price / highest price as it doesn't matter what they ask for. It comes down to real world service and how they respond to your situation / condition. All users (key holders) should be annually reviewed and passwords changed. You should (assuming) you want to enable such a feature have hold up & duress enabled. 99% of the populace have never done this or spoken to their CS about their duress pass phrase or alarm code. Don't let any of these CS stations nickel and dime you to monitor: break in, low temp, flood, fire, panic, duress / hold up, etc. There isn't a magical unicorn at the other end of the line it reports all the same to the CS with just different action codes. Be aware that UL / cUL requirements either limit or enable features not common in a residential install. Keeping in mind if you fall under a UL / cUL monitored service there are certain actions that can not be disabled or how the call is handled. Meaning if there is a fire condition because you didn't turn on the kitchen vent or had a nice steamy shower and the smoke alarm goes off. No matter what you say to the CS they are mandated to call out a fire truck. Why is that a big deal? Well because some places in NA charge for false alarms etc. Also some places fine people who are habitual in doing so! A feature to avoid such an incident is fire delay before send notification. Essentially the panel is programmed to give you a certain amount of delay time before the fire signal is sent to the CS. This time delay is fixed for UL / cUL installs but this should be something you consider when programming your system. Another feature which 99% of the populace fail to know or enable (assuming) its available on the panel is *Ring Back*. A ring back happens about 10-15 seconds once the system has been armed / disarmed. This essentially tells you the signal has arrived and received by the CS station. I can't even begin to tell you how many people are under the belief all is well and if a fire, smoke, Co, what ever condition is present that the signal actually goes to a human being. Keep in mind this has nothing to do with the line monitoring feature which is separate and also important. Line monitoring detects the line is live and active at all times which is also different from the polling time from the system to the CS. Each system is polled for a heart beat, all is well status, and connected line. Other key features to keep in mind is how long the siren will operate in any given scenario. Many people leave the system at the default 4 minute time limit. You of course will follow all local ordinances and laws that govern your area but some key tips are the following. Even though the 4 minute is basic in most places it has no relations to the amount of cycles. Some places have noise abatement laws which limit the amount of cycles but in most cases 2-4 cycles are permitted. Meaning your system is allowed to wail for 4 minutes long, and repeat for another 2-4 cycles. Ha . . . Again, because I fall under much stricter rules many of these policy, rules, do not apply to me. But having said this there are some conditions where I believe the siren, strobe, lights, should just keep going on. Which brings me to the second alternative is if your area says you can't have that thing wailing for 36 hours. Nothing is stopping you from having your strobe lights, or exterior lights flashing until help arrives. Not only does this serve to alert those around you it helps EMS, Fire, Police in knowing which house is in distress! Other things to keep in mind are how the system will react when a condition arises. In different areas UL / cUL requires that every trouble - fault be acknowledged by key holder. Why is this a good - bad thing? Well, if your system is plagued with issues by the time you clear the key pad 2059 will have arrived! Also, some faults are not allowed to be cleared until they are actually resolved while others will not allow you to arm the system until safe to do so. This is important because the hassle to (human) is high when things arent working as expected. I always encourage people to use the default settings and integrate more stringent rules and policies (IF) they believe their lifestyle can do so. It should be noted that most systems have two sets of user access when programming. Your first task once the system is fully operational is to lock out the installer code from being changed. Next is to enable two form authentication assuming this fits into your lifestyle and you see benefits in doing so. Most alarm systems allow only 6 digits for a password while more robust systems allow up to 24. Normally 24 is reserved for two form authentication and most use a pass key then the 6-12 digit pass code. Some systems do not allow you to enable the * field disable. This feature essentially prevents all key presses from showing up which translates to a person not being able to see how many digits are entered. This is why many UL / cUL installs are a complete pain in the aszz because the button press beep is also disabled so a person listening also can not count how many times a person has pounded the key. If you enable these features be cognoscente as to what you're doing. Because other stringent features are those that lock a person out after XXX attempts and for XXX minutes, hours, etc. While many if not all residential installs do not invoke a send on password failure if ever. Just some things to consider as you move forward . . . Teken, I think you made my head explode with info! I would love to see what you're house and system looks like. Lots of great info that I will have to take into account. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Teken, I think you made my head explode with info! I would love to see what you're house and system looks like. Lots of great info that I will have to take into account. Thanks Sorry, just the ramblings of a person who has seen what *Not to do* Ha . . . Its safe to say my security alarm system is very unique and customized. Due to the fact I worked with one of the best alarm company in the world to Alpha / Beta test and bring to market their wares. The benefit is that I had direct communications with the engineers and those in manufacturing. This allowed me to sample and install hardware not available to the general public. I do have to apologize though as some of my back ground is in the Enterprise / Military industry. This is why some of my replies may not be germane to those using more public facing hardware etc. Meaning you will be hard pressed to see a panel accept more than 8 digits if ever. Never mind 24 key strokes at the key board! Ha . . . I was very fortunate in having lots of custom firmware and hardware given to me that are to this day not sold in any other place on the planet. As a little bit of a teaser (as far as I am aware) I have the only laser grid system in place outside of a military installation which is self adjusting, auto correcting, and capable of tracking a small moving object of less than the size of a dime. The only down side to this system is the obvious loss of vision if you're in the secured zone! I can't see a problem there eh?? LOL . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottmichaelj Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Teken, I think you made my head explode with info! I would love to see what you're house and system looks like. Lots of great info that I will have to take into account. Thanks Teken knows his stuff. Most people don't think of half the things he mentions but its all true and very good information. At first it can be very overwhelming for someone starting out so read, think about it, read, think about it some more, read once more. @Teken you need a canned response so you can just cut and paste this when these topics come up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Teken knows his stuff. Most people don't think of half the things he mentions but its all true and very good information. At first it can be very overwhelming for someone starting out so read, think about it, read, think about it some more, read once more. @Teken you need a canned response so you can just cut and paste this when these topics come up. Then I couldn't practice my English! Ideals are peaceful - History is violent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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