slytsi Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 I have a 1400sqft split house brick construction on the lower half only which I am trying to equip with outdoor front and rear motion sensors. They are mounted at a height of 18' above ground and the ISY/PLM are about 4' below ground, so no more than 30' away from each other line of sight. I mainly have z-wave devices (all working fine) and I have 2 Insteon water sensors (2852-222) in the basement which also work fine. The question is, how do I boost the range so that these motion sensors work? It seems like the motion sensors only have a 15-25' range based on my testing. Anything further away and the signal is lost. I am also using brand new batteries, so that isn't the issue. I figured that using an Insteon light bulb (2672-222) mounted in the attic would help the mesh network reach the motion sensors, but it doesn't make a difference. Do I have to do anything to get the mesh to work or is it automatic? The light bulb is about 12' away from each sensor, separated by some plywood, insulation and some aluminum siding, so I do not see the issue here. thanks everyone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Both brick and aluminum will block RF. Do you have any exterior electric devices between the MS and the light you want to control (e.g., switches, receptacles). Where is the switch located that controls the lights or are you using Insteon bulbs? Can you install the MS closer to the ground? Id there an indoor receptacle close to the MS? Added after reading your linked post: Electricity is delivered to residences as a split, single-phase electric supply. There are three wires between the distribution transformer and the electric meter. They're actually the two ends of the transformer secondary with a center tap which is the neutral. The voltage between the tow ends (legs) is 220/240VAC. The voltage between the center tap (neutral) and each leg is 110/120VAC. The breakers (circuits) are powered by the two legs with about half of them on each opposite leg. If an Insteon controller and the responder on the opposite legs of the single-phase electric supply, then the signal must travel from the controller to the distribution transformer and back to the responder on the opposite leg. The signal will usually not make it. A phase coupler serves as a bridge between the opposite legs of the single-phase electric supply, negating the need for the signal to travel all the way to the distribution transformer and back. All dual-band devices can act as a bridge, but the must be placed on opposite legs of the single-phase electric supply and also communicate via RF. The beacon (or 4-tap) test can be used to verify that bridging has occurred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerlands Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Do the motion sensors work near your PLM? You can open the admin console and watch activity as you trigger motion. To extend your wireless you need to add more dual-band devices which will also solve your bridging problem if you install them on the correct legs. An easy way to do this is with the "Range Extenders" or Lamplincs because you can move them around and perform beacon tests to see if you're bridged. Jon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slytsi Posted December 9, 2015 Author Share Posted December 9, 2015 Stu and jon, Thanks for the insteon 101 lessons, this is all new to me. So it seems like even with a 2mm aluminum siding could block the RF completely? I could install the MF's closer to the ground, but then I may not cover as much territory as I would like. The MS's do work closer to the plm but that means I need twice as many of them. To overcome the bridging, it looks like if I add another insteon light bulb on the other phase those two will communicate over RF and then I will be bridged, is that correct? Or do I need range extenders to do that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerlands Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Stu and jon, Thanks for the insteon 101 lessons, this is all new to me. So it seems like even with a 2mm aluminum siding could block the RF completely? I could install the MF's closer to the ground, but then I may not cover as much territory as I would like. The MS's do work closer to the plm but that means I need twice as many of them. To overcome the bridging, it looks like if I add another insteon light bulb on the other phase those two will communicate over RF and then I will be bridged, is that correct? Or do I need range extenders to do that? Insteon LED light bulbs are dual band so you can install more and improve your network but be certain not to put them on a dimming circuit. Whether or not that will be adequate to take care of things is questionable. The network improves as you add devices. Jon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 All dual-band devices are range extenders, some are better than others. And yes, Insteon LED bulbs should have unswitched, full power at all times. But, you've answered only one of my several questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slytsi Posted December 9, 2015 Author Share Posted December 9, 2015 Thanks guys. There are outdoor receptacles but they are gfi and i had no real reason to replace them. There is an indoor receptacle in the attic but that is where i just put the insteon bulb, so this could have the same issue. The thing is, anything that is indoors has brick or siding that it has to pass through for it to work, so it would appear as if outdoor is my only choice here. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryllix Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 The rf signals will pass though brick and aluminum, somewhat. To further jerlands point, you could try a dual band plug-in device as close the MS units as possible, on the inside of the exterior wall to attempt to bridge the MS rf to the powerline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerlands Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 As Stu mentioned, all dual band devices are range extenders.. some better than others. I don't know if there is test data to prove the effective range of any device but I happen to be fond of the INSTEON 2992-222 Range Extender for bridging the circuits and extending the dual band range. Because I've experienced a somewhat less than advertised life expectancy with LED bulbs in general I just don't believe the dual band range of the Insteon LED bulbs is as great as a range extender, lamplinc, switchlinc or others. The exact circuity involved in the build for the RF and how that varies from device to device is likely the factor and would be interesting to compare. Jon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slytsi Posted December 9, 2015 Author Share Posted December 9, 2015 Jon, i just ordered that range extender. When it comes i will update this thread with my results. Hopefully it is strong enough to punch through the siding. I dont see any gfi insteon outlets so i'd rather leave that outdoor outlet as gfi. Thanks again all! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerlands Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Jon, i just ordered that range extender. When it comes i will update this thread with my results. Hopefully it is strong enough to punch through the siding. I dont see any gfi insteon outlets so i'd rather leave that outdoor outlet as gfi. Thanks again all! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk With your small Insteon network I think I'd purchase two (or maybe a lamplinc) not only to extend RF range but help with bridging issues. Jon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryllix Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 I would just purchase some On Off modules or LampLinc moduls. They perform the same function and may be useful down the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 If the current GFCI receptacle is downstream of a duplex receptacle, then you can replace the earlier receptacle with the GFCI and anything downstream of that will be protected including an Insteon outlet. Caveat: some GFCI outlets are not Insteon friendly (i.e., they'll trip for no apparent reason). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slytsi Posted December 15, 2015 Author Share Posted December 15, 2015 Just a quick update. I purchased the range extender and now the system works. For reference, the range extender is a mere 6 feet away from the PLM in the basement, but it is very close to a small basement window which enables both outdoor motion sensors to function properly. The range extender did not work in the attic as it must not be strong enough to go through the siding to the 2 motions sensors. It was also not strong enough to go through a garage door and then up 2 floors, so I am happy that I found a reasonable indoor location. I looked at the lamplincs but I cannot find a use for them. I realize that I don't need to use the functionality, but I figured that the range extender would possibly send out a stronger signal too, so I went with that option. thanks all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 ASFAK Range Extenders use the same RFcircuitry as LampLincs, but if you have no use for a LampLinc, then as they say, $10 is $10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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