UPS issue

[MarkJames]

So this is probably not related to my ISY but I'm a bit confused by this so I thought I'd start here.

 

I have a 994 controlling my home.  I just bought a new UPS - an APC2500 - to maintain/protect a few devices.  It has the 994, my Asus router, a VoIP router, and my cable modem all plugged into it - so all low current devices.

 

The UPS is plugged in and fully charged.  For some reason when I unplug the power to the UPS - simulating power loss - it seems to do what it's supposed to do and everything stays powered up - but the ISY restarts.  The cable modem and 2 routers don't even flinch but the ISY reboots.  I can't 'see' it reboot - the lights remain lit - but any sessions will be dropped and a 'catch-up' occurs.

 

I've checked that things are plugged in properly - in my last trial I plugged everything into a power bar and the power bar into the backed up port on the  UPS - but the ISY still reboots.

 

This is likely a UPS problem - but any ideas?

 

mark

[Teken]

So this is probably not related to my ISY but I'm a bit confused by this so I thought I'd start here.

 

I have a 994 controlling my home.  I just bought a new UPS - an APC2500 - to maintain/protect a few devices.  It has the 994, my Asus router, a VoIP router, and my cable modem all plugged into it - so all low current devices.

 

The UPS is plugged in and fully charged.  For some reason when I unplug the power to the UPS - simulating power loss - it seems to do what it's supposed to do and everything stays powered up - but the ISY restarts.  The cable modem and 2 routers don't even flinch but the ISY reboots.  I can't 'see' it reboot - the lights remain lit - but any sessions will be dropped and a 'catch-up' occurs.

 

I've checked that things are plugged in properly - in my last trial I plugged everything into a power bar and the power bar into the backed up port on the  UPS - but the ISY still reboots.

 

This is likely a UPS problem - but any ideas?

 

mark

 

Hello Mark,

 

Using a True RMS DMM measure the outlet while plugged into the mains and record what the voltage is. Now, leaving the meter probes in the same outlet unplug the UPS and record what the voltage is on battery back up and report back.

[MarkJames]

Using my Fluke 87V I get 112.4V while powered and 115.6 under battery backup

 

mark

 

[edit] using min/max - under power I get a min of 111.5 and a max of 115.8

Edited December 21, 2015 by MarkJames

[Teken]

Using my Fluke 87V I get 112.4V while powered and 115.6 under battery backup

 

mark

 

This is on the same outlet the 994 was plugged into? I am also assuming this outlet is on the conditioned side and not on the unswitched (no battery back up) master outlet?

[MarkJames]

The ISY is plugged into a power bar with those 4 devices (2 routers, ISY and cable modem).  The power bar is plugged into the master backed up outlet on the UPS.  The meter is plugged into 1 of the adjacent battery backed up outlets

[Teken]

The ISY is plugged into a power bar with those 4 devices (2 routers, ISY and cable modem).  The power bar is plugged into the master backed up outlet on the UPS.  The meter is plugged into 1 of the adjacent battery backed up outlets

 

Do me a favor plug the 994 into one battery powered outlet and report back if it behaves the same.

Edited December 21, 2015 by Teken

[MarkJames]

Same problem I'm afraid. 

 

Within a session it immediately goes to Socket failed open.... - ISY reboots and catchup happens again.

[MarkJames]

As an aside - if I follow minimum voltage as I unplug the UPS the voltage drops as low as 109.1.  Perhaps I need a more well regulated power supply for the ISY?

 

mark

Edited December 21, 2015 by MarkJames

[Teken]

Same problem I'm afraid. 

 

Within a session it immediately goes to Socket failed open.... - ISY reboots and catchup happens again.

 

Hrmm, the line voltage you indicated is well within the 994's operating voltage. So I have to ask is the UPS been allowed to fully charge since you installed it?

 

Next, have you tried to unplug all of the devices and just leave the 994 powered by the UPS?

 

Is the result the same?

 

Obviously if you unplug the rest you will need to come back later as your Internet will be down LOL!

[MarkJames]

I'll try that but at the moment I've got a 10.14gig file downloading so I've gotta wait a bit. 

 

Could it be that the wall wart I'm using to power the ISY doesn't regulate well at 109 or so volts?

 

mark

[Teken]

I'll try that but at the moment I've got a 10.14gig file downloading so I've gotta wait a bit. 

 

Could it be that the wall wart I'm using to power the ISY doesn't regulate well at 109 or so volts?

 

mark

 

Hello Mark,

 

Its possible but again the 994 Series Controller has been manufactured to operate in a wide voltage range. Since your line power is *A Typical* of American line voltage. 

 

Perhaps its too low and with the mix with the wall wart its not able to provide the required voltage. What does the wall wart say for specifications?

[MarkJames]

It looks like the original got swapped around sometime over the years.  This is a replacement to my original ISY 99ir.  The adapter is a 9V 200mA one.  I have a 12V 1.5A one I can swap with  - is 12V within range of the ISY?  I can try that instead.

 

[edit] 

 

I looked up the specs and I should be good till 30V

 

Looks like 200mA was too small for the ISY as well - perhaps that was part of the problem 

 

I've swapped it to 12VDC 1.5A - and will report back

Edited December 21, 2015 by MarkJames

[Teken]

It looks like the original got swapped around sometime over the years.  This is a replacement to my original ISY 99ir.  The adapter is a 9V 200mA one.  I have a 12V 1.5A one I can swap with  - is 12V within range of the ISY?  I can try that instead.

 

[edit] 

 

I looked up the specs and I should be good till 30V

 

Looks like 200mA was too small for the ISY as well - perhaps that was part of the problem 

 

I've swapped it to 12VDC 1.5A - and will report back

 

That is more than fine the specs are as follows: 5-30 volt, center positive minimum of 300 mA.

Edited December 21, 2015 by Teken

[MarkJames]

I replaced the power supply and can confirm that it's now working properly.  

 

The specs from the ISY said 5-30V but 300mA minimum.  My psu at 200mA must have been threshold.  

 

All is good now happily

 

Thanks so much for the help!

 

mark

[Teken]

I replaced the power supply and can confirm that it's now working properly.  

 

The specs from the ISY said 5-30V but 300mA minimum.  My psu at 200mA must have been threshold.  

 

All is good now happily

 

Thanks so much for the help!

 

mark

 

Hello Mark,

 

No worries and appreciate the quick confirmation as I am sure this information will prove valuable to others down the road. One thing to note is that you should consider isolating a few of those devices on a separate power strip. 

[MarkJames]

on a separate power strip?  Or on separate outlets on the same UPS?  I only ask because it's a bit of a proximity issue.

 

mark

[Teken]

on a separate power strip?  Or on separate outlets on the same UPS?  I only ask because it's a bit of a proximity issue.

 

mark

 

Either is fine so long as it works functionally in your environment. 

 

I only pose this to you and others as its best practice to isolate specific hardware devices from one another. On the surface all electronic devices should simply just work and operate with out issue.

 

The problem is there is a huge variability in manufacturing, tolerances, and as you noted PSU in use and what they are able to supply in terms of current.

 

Lots of these PSU provide a electrical load that sometimes is very hard to detect until some kind of sensitive electronics is at play. As an example way back in the time machine people who had CRT monitors that had other noisy or improperly regulated PSU plugged into the same UPS would see noise lines on the screen.

 

This could be from flicker, to actual lines scrolling over and over like a refresh rate.

 

Obviously today CRT monitors are long gone but the effects are still present and the most common issue people see are unknown network related *injected* noise.

 

Meaning sometimes you will see dropped packets or WiFi signals issues . . .

 

These EMI / RFI based issues are hard to identify so this is why best practice is to keep communication (high speed data) separate from low speed data hardware etc.

 

Just my $0.000000000000001 on that topic as I have seen this for more than 35 years.

[MarkJames]

Thanks - experience is always the best teacher.  I couldn't count the hours I've spent troubleshooting Windows issues having started with Windows on an Apple PC and migrated along with it from 3.1 to 95 to 98 to XP, ME, Vista, 7, 8, and 10 along with being an MCSE and maintaining a 300 user environment running under NT. I usually troubleshoot problems WAY faster than the folks I've worked with - not cuz I'm smarter - just cuz I've probably already wasted 3 days somewhere in my past finding out what they're trying to solve.

 

I'll separate them out on the UPS - I have 4 UPS's in my closet so whatever I plug into it's going to have potential issues with something else unless I get a separate UPS for each device and that's just not within my pocketbook.

 

Thanks again,

 

mark

[Teken]

Thanks - experience is always the best teacher.  I couldn't count the hours I've spent troubleshooting Windows issues having started with Windows on an Apple PC and migrated along with it from 3.1 to 95 to 98 to XP, ME, Vista, 7, 8, and 10 along with being an MCSE and maintaining a 300 user environment running under NT. I usually troubleshoot problems WAY faster than the folks I've worked with - not cuz I'm smarter - just cuz I've probably already wasted 3 days somewhere in my past finding out what they're trying to solve.

 

I'll separate them out on the UPS - I have 4 UPS's in my closet so whatever I plug into it's going to have potential issues with something else unless I get a separate UPS for each device and that's just not within my pocketbook.

 

Thanks again,

 

mark

 

I believe many of us have been there and said to our self *RTFM* or *Did you POPO*? Everyday I learn that I know less than I thought I did before.

 

But, this keeps me humble in knowing there is much to learn!

 

Merry X-MAS . . .

[Brian H]

I suspect the old 300mA minimum current specification. Is low for a ISY994i. Especially if it has any added hardware. Like the Z-Wave board.

My ISY994i and the one sold by Smarthome as an option when using a 2413S. Is 100-240 VAC 50/60 Cycles Input. 5 Volts 1 Amp output.

[MarkJames]

I don't have any add-on boards - just the Elk and Web modules but those are just software.  It always ran OK with just 200mA - but I never noticed this UPS problem as the power doesn't fail that often.  

 

Always good to have a slightly larger than necessary psu than one that's bordering on not enough, though.

 

mark

[Brian H]

If the 200mA supply was close to its rating. There is a possibility it momentarily dropped out as the UPS switched to battery.

The UPS may have a stepped modified sine wave output also. That could have played into the observations you had.

[Teken]

Most over the counter UPS battery systems are indeed modified sine wave power output. They are cheap to make and easy to design when compared to a true sine wave equivalent.

 

Most household electronics operate just fine using modified sine wave invertors. Anything with a motor / compressor will not depending upon what other auxiliary regulated power electronics are in use.

 

NOTE: The following best practices should be observed and followed to gain the best outcome and service life.

 

1. Size the UPS to the actual load in use vs run time required.

2. Do not over load the UPS past the OEM's stated power handling.

3. Do not extend the power cable of the UPS.

 

4. Perform (manual) monthly UPS testing regardless of the automated AVR load testing from the unit.

5. Replace any UPS battery in active service after five years even if its never been called to duty.

6. Submit all warranty and extended warranty cards, on line entries to the maker to ensure proper coverage.

 

7. Do not buy cheap batteries as seen on many on line e-tailers.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Teken

[Brian H]

I have recently seen reports of the modified sine wave UPS units. Causing big issues with the newer computers with Active Power Factor Correction power supplies. Like instantly shutting down when going into battery backup on a power loss.