john410 Posted December 27, 2015 Posted December 27, 2015 I am awaiting the arrival of my 2406H phase coupler, which I hope will solve my Insteon communication issues which I posted about before. In the meantime, I am trying to read up on Insteon to better understand the technology. I read the publication "Insteon Whitepaper: The Details" and still have many questions.... In the protocol, what is point of the Max Hops field? Seems the originator of a message could just set the initial value of the Hops Left field to something less than 3 if it wanted to limit the number of hops a message makes. What is the point of groups? If each device is to respond with an ACK message using a "group cleanup direct message", it seems the total time to transmit a direct message to each device and get acknowledgement would be the same. I'm still confused about linking and groups. For example, how does a switch (controller) tell another switch (the responder) that it wants to link as a certain group number? Can I link as a point to point (from a specific address to a specific address)? If so, how do I do that with 1 button on each device? What is a "scene" and how is it different than a group? When using the PLM and ISY994i, should I press the link button on the PLM when linking to devices? Specific question about the 994i: What is the best way to "wipe the slate clean" as far as starting over with Insteon? I want to keep my programs and assigned X10 devices but want to start from scratch with the Insteon. I have three Insteon responders (2 lamp linc and 1 on/off module) that I have tried to get working with two different PLMs. I'm thinking these devices are screwed up now and I just want to make them behave like they did out of the box. I still have much to learn on Insteon. I appreciate any help or insight anyone reading this may have. If there are more documents out there, please provide links if you have them. I'm not afraid of technical details - I have an EE degree and have spent almost 40 years designing software and firmware for embedded devices. Thanks, John
LeeG Posted December 27, 2015 Posted December 27, 2015 In the protocol, what is point of the Max Hops field? Seems the originator of a message could just set the initial value of the Hops Left field to something less than 3 if it wanted to limit the number of hops a message makes. Max Hops affects speed. A Max Hops of 1 must be ACKed more quickly than a Max Hops of 3. Takes time for an Insteon message to be repeated multiple times with Max Hops = 3. What is the point of groups? If each device is to respond with an ACK message using a "group cleanup direct message", it seems the total time to transmit a direct message to each device and get acknowledgement would be the same. Ignoring what a PLM can do, all other devices use Groups/Scenes to control another device. I'm still confused about linking and groups. For example, how does a switch (controller) tell another switch (the responder) that it wants to link as a certain group number? Can I link as a point to point (from a specific address to a specific address)? If so, how do I do that with 1 button on each device? Other than a PLM all devices that talk to each other do so with Groups/Scenes. In ISY the link(s) are created when an ISY Scene is defined and devices added to the ISY Scene as Controller or Responder. What is a "scene" and how is it different than a group? Scene and Group are the same thing. When referencing device hardware pubs the term Group is used. When referencing external pubs Scene is used. Again, the same thing is being discussed. When using the PLM and ISY994i, should I press the link button on the PLM when linking to devices? Never. Devices are linked when adding to an ISY Scene Specific question about the 994i: What is the best way to "wipe the slate clean" as far as starting over with Insteon? I want to keep my programs and assigned X10 devices but want to start from scratch with the Insteon. I have three Insteon responders (2 lamp linc and 1 on/off module) that I have tried to get working with two different PLMs. I'm thinking these devices are screwed up now and I just want to make them behave like they did out of the box. Delete the device from ISY and Factory Reset device. Then add device to ISY. Without good coupling Insteon devices will have problems communicating with PLM and each other. Likely these will raise addition questions. Feel free to post back.
john410 Posted December 28, 2015 Author Posted December 28, 2015 Likely these will raise addition questions. Feel free to post back. Actually, I think you've answered all of my questions. I'm going to avoid groups/scenes because the only programs I create simply turn particular devices on and off at prescribed times of the day. Maybe two will be programmed for the same time, but not worth the trouble of creating a scene or group. Thanks for your help!
Teken Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 Actually, I think you've answered all of my questions. I'm going to avoid groups/scenes because the only programs I create simply turn particular devices on and off at prescribed times of the day. Maybe two will be programmed for the same time, but not worth the trouble of creating a scene or group. Thanks for your help! Hello John, In case this was not made obvious in any of the forum posts or literature you have read. Native scenes / linked devices operate faster than a program initiated by a controller like a 994 Series Controller. Scenes / links are not dependent upon a controller being active and operational. Should a controller fail or a program not execute a native scene / linked device will always operate in a manual fashion. Best practices are to link all devices in the home to provide native control and fail over. Use programs only when more logic features, capability, and timing / scheduling are required. Lastly, as was noted in the other thread with respect to the 2406H coupler. This device is passive in nature and does not repeat or strengthen the Insteon signal. It also does not provide any RF to power line bridging either. Any dual band device will repeat, regenerate the Insteon signal in the home and also bridge RF to power line communications when and if required.
ISYhbsh01 Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 And of course, do not do any direct linking between devices. Everything should be done in the ISY.
LeeG Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 john410 For simple device turn On/Off/% On level, with Direct commands using a Program is fine. As was noted there is a slight delay of a second or so to trigger a Program and have it issue Direct commands. Groups/Scenes are a normal part on Insteon. A device when operated locally notifies the ISY of the local activity with a Group/Scene. Normal Insteon usage. Turning a KPL Secondary button On/Off with an ISY Program requires a Group/Scene. Normal Insteon usage. DeviceA turning DeviceB On/Off/% On Level requires a Group/Scene. Devices (not counting PLM) have no knowledge of Direct commands for controlling another device. Just a few examples where a Group/Scene is used.
john410 Posted December 28, 2015 Author Posted December 28, 2015 (edited) And of course, do not do any direct linking between devices. Everything should be done in the ISY. I have a 3-way switch (2 switches) that controls an outdoor flood. I was thinking of replacing them both with Insteon wall switches. Was planning on having switch A directly control the light (load connected to switch) and switch B control switch A. Shouldn't I link these directly? john410 For simple device turn On/Off/% On level, with Direct commands using a Program is fine. As was noted there is a slight delay of a second or so to trigger a Program and have it issue Direct commands. Groups/Scenes are a normal part on Insteon. A device when operated locally notifies the ISY of the local activity with a Group/Scene. Normal Insteon usage. Turning a KPL Secondary button On/Off with an ISY Program requires a Group/Scene. Normal Insteon usage. DeviceA turning DeviceB On/Off/% On Level requires a Group/Scene. Devices (not counting PLM) have no knowledge of Direct commands for controlling another device. Just a few examples where a Group/Scene is used. Noting my plan above, why do I need a group if I'm just planning on replacing a standard 3-way switch setup with two Insteon switches - one to directly switch the current to the load (primary switch) and the other to send on/off commands to the primary switch. I thought I'd just link them, no? I would program the ISY to send on and off commands to the primary switch at certain times of the day (or night). If the secondary switch turned the primary on or off, why would I need a scene or even have the ISY know about the secondary switch. I'm really not getting the group/scene thing. My needs are simple - turn a specific switch or lamp module on at time X and off at time Y, with the option to manually override (physically flip the switch). Edited December 28, 2015 by john410
stusviews Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 Anytime an Insteon device controls or responds to one or more other Insteon devices a scene is appropriate and preferred. If a condition is involved, then a program is required. Programs can control scenes as well as individual devices.
LeeG Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 (edited) john410 "Shouldn't I link these directly?" No. When using an ISY nothing should be linked manually. That activity makes ISY functions such as Restore Device, Restore Devices and others impossible to use since that would destroy the manual links. It is also easier to create the Group/Scene with the ISY Admin Console. No access or button pressing of the two devices. "If the secondary switch turned the primary on or off, why would I need a scene or even have the ISY know about the secondary switch." A Group/Scene must be created, whether done manually by pressing device buttons or through the ISY. DeviceA must use a Group/Scene to control deviceB and the reverse. Actually 2 Groups/Scenes are needed so DeviceA and DeviceB stay in sync. Manually create 2 Groups/Scenes or define the relationship once with ISY. The non load device must use a Group/Scene to turn On/Off the load switch. "I'm really not getting the group/scene thing. My needs are simple - turn a specific switch or lamp module on at time X and off at time Y, with the option to manually override (physically flip the switch)." This simple activity does not require a Group/Scene. Certainly can be done with Direct commands from a Program. Not likely you will turn On/Off the lamp module manually because the outlet is low near the floor. It really is easier to create Groups/Scenes with the ISY Admin Console than have to manually create them. Plus creating them manually prevents using other ISY functions in the future. However, it is your installation. Do as you are want. Once told of the down side it is your choice to accept the issues. Edited December 28, 2015 by LeeG
john410 Posted December 28, 2015 Author Posted December 28, 2015 It really is easier to create Groups/Scenes with the ISY Admin Console than have to manually create them. Plus creating them manually prevents using other ISY functions in the future. However, it is your installation. Do as you are want. Once told of the down side it is your choice to accept the issues. Thanks for your response. After re-reading the section in the ISY manual about scenes and cross-linking, I think it makes sense to setup a virtual 3-way switch using a scene. I have no idea what group number gets assigned or how that all works, but I'll just follow the instructions and hope for the best. I guess if I setup a program to turn that light on, the program will have an action that says "turn on Scene xxx". Likewise for off. As far as the rest of my devices such as lamp linc modules, which will be run by programs, making them part of a scene just doesn't make sense. My program will say "If time is 'sunset', turn on lamp linc module A". Don't see where a scene is going to help.
LeeG Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 (edited) john410 "After re-reading the section in the ISY manual about scenes and cross-linking, I think it makes sense to setup a virtual 3-way switch using a scene. I have no idea what group number gets assigned or how that all works, but I'll just follow the instructions and hope for the best." If using SwitchLinc, ToggleLinc, KPL load control button, Group 1 is being used. You would not use that number if doing manual links. The ISY takes care of all of that. SceneCrossLink SwitchLinc1 Controller SwitchLinc2 Controller " I guess if I setup a program to turn that light on, the program will have an action that says "turn on Scene xxx". Likewise for off." Exactly right. If some time Then Set Scene 'SceneCrossLink' On Else If some time Then Set Scene 'SceneCrossLink' Off Else Edited December 28, 2015 by LeeG
john410 Posted December 28, 2015 Author Posted December 28, 2015 john410 "After re-reading the section in the ISY manual about scenes and cross-linking, I think it makes sense to setup a virtual 3-way switch using a scene. I have no idea what group number gets assigned or how that all works, but I'll just follow the instructions and hope for the best." If using SwitchLinc, ToggleLinc, KPL load control button, Group 1 is being used. You would not use that number if doing manual links. The ISY takes care of all of that. SceneCrossLink SwitchLinc1 Controller SwitchLinc2 Controller " I guess if I setup a program to turn that light on, the program will have an action that says "turn on Scene xxx". Likewise for off." Exactly right. If some time Then Set Scene 'SceneCrossLink' On Else If some time Then Set Scene 'SceneCrossLink' Off Else Wow. Your setup is way bigger than mine! Thanks for your help LeeG. I'll post back here with my results, once I get everything setup.
fryfrog Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 And to be double clear, you're just *using* the ISY to create the scenes. It actually writes them to the devices involved, so after you've set them up you could turn off the ISY and the switches / scenes you've created will still work. Basically instead of doing a lot of pressing buttons and setting on levels and ramp rates on the devices and going back and forth between them, the ISY is doing that for your. It is just a *lot* easier to create a scene from the ISY, all drag and drop and click and tick box and such. Easy to fiddle with things to make it exactly like what you want.
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