pwerboost Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 I would like to know how to diagnose the origin of my problem. all my motion sensors flash the LED a random times, most of them right after are triggered. my micro switches doesn't turn the lights off when they are supposed to. (most are based on timers not on motion sensors) I suspected it was my two years old PLM because i always had all kind of random issues for long time but they were not too bad, i lived with them. but now that i bought a brand new PLM everything is worse. Can i erase the PLM and all the links and scenes and start all over again? at this point after all the time and money i'd spent buying filters, bridges and repeaters, i wouldn't mind if it solve the problems for good. Thanks.
Teken Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 I would like to know how to diagnose the origin of my problem. all my motion sensors flash the LED a random times, most of them right after are triggered. my micro switches doesn't turn the lights off when they are supposed to. (most are based on timers not on motion sensors) I suspected it was my two years old PLM because i always had all kind of random issues for long time but they were not too bad, i lived with them. but now that i bought a brand new PLM everything is worse. Can i erase the PLM and all the links and scenes and start all over again? at this point after all the time and money i'd spent buying filters, bridges and repeaters, i wouldn't mind if it solve the problems for good. Thanks. If you believe that is the best course of action you can certainly use the *Delete PLM* option in the Admin Console. Once done you should also complete a hard reset the 2413S PLM using the full users manual as the guide. This process is not favored by many here, but my personal experience is if you believe starting fresh with a good known state is the desire. Then, I don't see that being a problem at all to have that peace of mind. Its only your time being used up and if that is something you wish to do go ahead. I would follow up that if you're intent on doing this task you might as well hard reset the entire home. This will ensure all half links are erased and brings each device to a OEM known state. Best practice is to always hard reset any new device prior to enrollment anyways. Good luck . . .
jerlands Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 I would like to know how to diagnose the origin of my problem. all my motion sensors flash the LED a random times, most of them right after are triggered. my micro switches doesn't turn the lights off when they are supposed to. (most are based on timers not on motion sensors) Open Event Viewer (Tools > Diagnostics ) to level 3, clear and then test your motion detectors and micro switches, copy to clipboard (notepad looking icon) then post results. Jon...
pwerboost Posted January 4, 2016 Author Posted January 4, 2016 Open Event Viewer (Tools > Diagnostics ) to level 3, clear and then test your motion detectors and micro switches, copy to clipboard (notepad looking icon) then post results. Jon... sorry for the stupid question but what do you mean with level 3? PLM info/status?
Teken Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 Tools -> Diagnostics -> Event Viewer -> 3 Device Communications Events.
jerlands Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 (edited) sorry for the stupid question but what do you mean with level 3? PLM info/status? This will help in communications test. The Event Viewer trace will show number of "hops" required for communication to and from devices. If you go to Tools in the top menu bar then to Diagnostics you'll see Event Viewer on top. Open it and on the bottom you'll see a "Clear" button then the text "level" followed by selections. Choose (3 Device Communications Events) Jon... Edited January 4, 2016 by jerlands
pwerboost Posted January 4, 2016 Author Posted January 4, 2016 i did the event viewer level 3 and i chose one of the motion sensors that blinks rapidly after is triggered. (2D.3F.EA) Mon 01/04/2016 01:30:33 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 2D.3F.EA 00.00.01 CF 11 01 LTONRR (01) Mon 01/04/2016 01:30:33 PM : [std-Group ] 2D.3F.EA-->Group=1, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=3 Mon 01/04/2016 01:30:33 PM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [2D 3F EA 1] [DON] [1] uom=0 prec=-1 Mon 01/04/2016 01:30:33 PM : [ 2D 3F EA 1] DON 1 Mon 01/04/2016 01:30:33 PM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [2D 3F EA 1] [sT] [255] uom=0 prec=-1 Mon 01/04/2016 01:30:33 PM : [ 2D 3F EA 1] ST 255 Mon 01/04/2016 01:30:33 PM : [D2D-CMP 0037] STS [2D 3F EA 1] ST op=1 Event(val=255 uom=0 prec=-1) is Condition(val=255 uom=0 prec=-1) --> true Mon 01/04/2016 01:30:33 PM : [ Time] 13:30:33 13(0) Mon 01/04/2016 01:30:33 PM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 2B 16 03 0F 12 00 Mon 01/04/2016 01:30:33 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 2B.16.03 0F 12 00 06 LTON-F (00) Mon 01/04/2016 01:30:33 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 2B.16.03 0F 12 00 06 LTON-F (00): Duplicate or ACK for a different device Mon 01/04/2016 01:30:33 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 2D.3F.EA 00.00.01 CB 11 01 LTONRR (01) Mon 01/04/2016 01:30:33 PM : [std-Group ] 2D.3F.EA-->Group=1, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2 Mon 01/04/2016 01:30:33 PM : [iNST-DUP ] Previous message ignored. Mon 01/04/2016 01:30:34 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 2B.16.03 3B.97.4B 2B 12 00 LTON-F (00) Mon 01/04/2016 01:30:34 PM : [std-Direct Ack] 2B.16.03-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2 Mon 01/04/2016 01:30:34 PM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [2B 16 3 1] [sT] [255] uom=0 prec=-1 Mon 01/04/2016 01:30:34 PM : [ 2B 16 3 1] ST 255 Mon 01/04/2016 01:30:56 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 27.72.93 13.02.01 CB 06 02 (02) Mon 01/04/2016 01:30:56 PM : [std-Group ] 27.72.93-->13.02.01, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2 Mon 01/04/2016 01:30:56 PM : [iNST-INFO ] Previous message ignored. Mon 01/04/2016 01:30:57 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 27.72.93 13.02.01 CF 06 02 (02) Mon 01/04/2016 01:30:57 PM : [std-Group ] 27.72.93-->13.02.01, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=3 Mon 01/04/2016 01:30:57 PM : [iNST-INFO ] Previous message ignored. Mon 01/04/2016 01:31:00 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 2D.3F.EA 11.01.01 CF 06 01 (01) Mon 01/04/2016 01:31:00 PM : [std-Group ] 2D.3F.EA-->11.01.01, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=3 Mon 01/04/2016 01:31:00 PM : [iNST-INFO ] Previous message ignored. Mon 01/04/2016 01:31:01 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 2D.3F.EA 11.01.01 CF 06 01 (01) Mon 01/04/2016 01:31:01 PM : [std-Group ] 2D.3F.EA-->11.01.01, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=3 Mon 01/04/2016 01:31:01 PM : [iNST-INFO ] Previous message ignored. Mon 01/04/2016 01:31:30 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 2D.3F.EA 00.00.01 CF 13 01 LTOFFRR(01) Mon 01/04/2016 01:31:30 PM : [std-Group ] 2D.3F.EA-->Group=1, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=3 Mon 01/04/2016 01:31:30 PM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [2D 3F EA 1] [DOF] [1] uom=0 prec=-1 Mon 01/04/2016 01:31:30 PM : [ 2D 3F EA 1] DOF 1 Mon 01/04/2016 01:31:30 PM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [2D 3F EA 1] [sT] [0] uom=0 prec=-1 Mon 01/04/2016 01:31:30 PM : [ 2D 3F EA 1] ST 0 Mon 01/04/2016 01:31:30 PM : [D2D-CMP 0037] STS [2D 3F EA 1] ST op=1 Event(val=0 uom=0 prec=-1) is Condition(val=255 uom=0 prec=-1) --> false Mon 01/04/2016 01:31:30 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 2D.3F.EA 00.00.01 CF 13 01 LTOFFRR(01) Mon 01/04/2016 01:31:30 PM : [std-Group ] 2D.3F.EA-->Group=1, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=3 Mon 01/04/2016 01:31:30 PM : [iNST-DUP ] Previous message ignored. Mon 01/04/2016 01:31:33 PM : [ Time] 13:31:33 13(0) Mon 01/04/2016 01:31:33 PM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 2B 16 03 0F 13 00 Mon 01/04/2016 01:31:33 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 2B.16.03 0F 13 00 06 LTOFFRR(00) Mon 01/04/2016 01:31:33 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 2B.16.03 0F 13 00 06 LTOFFRR(00): Duplicate or ACK for a different device Mon 01/04/2016 01:31:35 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 2B.16.03 3B.97.4B 2B 13 00 LTOFFRR(00) Mon 01/04/2016 01:31:35 PM : [std-Direct Ack] 2B.16.03-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2 Mon 01/04/2016 01:31:35 PM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [2B 16 3 1] [sT] [0] uom=0 prec=-1 Mon 01/04/2016 01:31:35 PM : [ 2B 16 3 1] ST 0 Mon 01/04/2016 01:31:35 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 2B.16.03 3B.97.4B 23 13 00 LTOFFRR(00) Mon 01/04/2016 01:31:35 PM : [std-Direct Ack] 2B.16.03-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=0 Mon 01/04/2016 01:31:35 PM : [iNST-DUP ] Previous message ignored. Mon 01/04/2016 01:31:57 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 2D.3F.EA 13.01.01 CF 06 01 (01) Mon 01/04/2016 01:31:57 PM : [std-Group ] 2D.3F.EA-->13.01.01, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=3 Mon 01/04/2016 01:31:57 PM : [iNST-INFO ] Previous message ignored. Mon 01/04/2016 01:31:58 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 2D.3F.EA 13.01.01 CB 06 01 (01) Mon 01/04/2016 01:31:58 PM : [std-Group ] 2D.3F.EA-->13.01.01, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2 Mon 01/04/2016 01:31:58 PM : [iNST-INFO ] Previous message ignored. END
jerlands Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 From what I can tell your comms look good.. Hops Left=2, Hops Left=3 are good. Hops are the number of times the message gets retransmitted before reaching it's destination either from the device to PLM or from PLM to device. If the motion sensor "turns on" that message gets sent and if received by the PLM directly you'll see Hops Left=3 but if it has to be retransmitted by another device then the Hops count is reduced by 1 so you'll see Hops Left=2... anyway.. I don't see a problem showing up. Things that can cause communications issues are signal suckers and noise makers on the powerline. Some LED/CFL bulbs cause these problems while a UPS can dampen the powerline signal so if you happen to see any correlation with misfirings and an event like a light being on you might look into it. Also, most I believe turn the LED off to conserve battery life so what your seeing in the motion sensor's flashing light may be normal but I imagine it flashes when receiving or sending messages. Maybe someone else can see something in your trace. Jon...
pwerboost Posted January 4, 2016 Author Posted January 4, 2016 From what I can tell your comms look good.. Hops Left=2, Hops Left=3 are good. Hops are the number of times the message gets retransmitted before reaching it's destination either from the device to PLM or from PLM to device. If the motion sensor "turns on" that message gets sent and if received by the PLM directly you'll see Hops Left=3 but if it has to be retransmitted by another device then the Hops count is reduced by 1 so you'll see Hops Left=2... anyway.. I don't see a problem showing up. Things that can cause communications issues are signal suckers and noise makers on the powerline. Some LED/CFL bulbs cause these problems while a UPS can dampen the powerline signal so if you happen to see any correlation with misfirings and an event like a light being on you might look into it. Also, most I believe turn the LED off to conserve battery life so what your seeing in the motion sensor's flashing light may be normal but I imagine it flashes when receiving or sending messages. Maybe someone else can see something in your trace. Jon... but the micro switch that control the light attach to the motion sensor actually miss a lot of times to the point that i have to just turn the lights manually. this issue is happening all across the house since i replaced the PLM before that it was just random lights turning on by itself or other not responding at all.
pwerboost Posted January 4, 2016 Author Posted January 4, 2016 All my motion sensors are showing the 1011 on the UI and restored them already more than once.
LeeG Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 Did you put each Motion Sensor into linking mode (only one at a time) so update to battery powered device will be done? Be sure to take Motion Sensor out of linking mode before updating next one.
pwerboost Posted January 4, 2016 Author Posted January 4, 2016 i did put the motion sensors into linking mode and after restoring i pushed the back button twice to get it out the linking mode before i moved to the next sensor.
oberkc Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 I definitely would not like the motion sensors showing the 1011 symbol. Are you putting them into linking mode when you attempt to write updates? How close are they to the nearest dual band device? Still, the motion sensors do not sound like the cause of your problem if the lights are turning ON in response to motion, but not OFF in response to a program timer. Did you test your micro modules or only the motion sensors? What load is on the micro module? LED? Fluorescent?
pwerboost Posted January 4, 2016 Author Posted January 4, 2016 yes, i always put them into linking mode to write updates. i have a little over 100 insteon devices across the house which probably 30 of them are dual band, i also have 4 range extenders, filterlinc on the fridge, microwave, etc and i even installed a phase coupler hardwired. The micro modules doesn't show the 1011 symbol and they drive all LED light bulbs and fluorescent bulbs only in the garage and main bathroom.
oberkc Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 Do I understand it correctly that your micro modules are turning ON, but not OFF? Have you tried temporarily removing the LED bulbs to see if that improves response?
Teken Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 Do I understand it correctly that your micro modules are turning ON, but not OFF? Have you tried temporarily removing the LED bulbs to see if that improves response? 1+ I agree this is a simple test and will confirm if its the load that is the root cause. More often than not if a load turns on fine and later can not be turned off its the load injecting noise on the line. The only trouble part is if they used to work fine before and now don't. I've seen this sort of behavior on quite a few Home Depot Cree LED lights. At four different installs during the commissioning of the site on day one things were operating perfectly and we had great comms. Later one site indicated about 42 days later some lights would not turn off as commanded and require multiple off's to be initiated at the local paddle. Later two other sites indicated about 90 days later random fixtures would not turn off also. After removing dozens of Home Depot Cree LED bulbs we found several that operated just fine in any other aspect. But when it came to integrating them with Insteon they just had enough noise to kill the signal. I can't tell you how painful it was to scale a 25 foot ladder up and down like a used toilet seat! This is the problem with consumer products as we all want the cheapest price no matter what. The down side is, to get to that level of price point other aspects will be sacrificed to obtain said price. As an aside, I don't do the ladder thing any longer and invested in a extra long bulb extension poll. Ha . . .
MWoods329 Posted January 10, 2016 Posted January 10, 2016 From what I can tell your comms look good.. Hops Left=2, Hops Left=3 are good. Hops are the number of times the message gets retransmitted before reaching it's destination either from the device to PLM or from PLM to device. If the motion sensor "turns on" that message gets sent and if received by the PLM directly you'll see Hops Left=3 but if it has to be retransmitted by another device then the Hops count is reduced by 1 so you'll see Hops Left=2... anyway.. I don't see a problem showing up. Things that can cause communications issues are signal suckers and noise makers on the powerline. Some LED/CFL bulbs cause these problems while a UPS can dampen the powerline signal so if you happen to see any correlation with misfirings and an event like a light being on you might look into it. Also, most I believe turn the LED off to conserve battery life so what your seeing in the motion sensor's flashing light may be normal but I imagine it flashes when receiving or sending messages. Maybe someone else can see something in your trace. Jon... Sorry to divert from pwerboost's question; but I think you may have just explained the answer I was searching for when I came across this post. I have a similar issue. Three MS in the house, two control their light set via program only. They work 100% of the time - never fails. The third, when controlling lights by program only works about 50% of the time - and definitely does not work if it hasn't see motion in over an hour. The MS in question is about 20 linear feet from the PLM. The other two are much further away. The difference (that I can find) is that the light switch which I want the MS in question to control is about 10 linear inches (or less) away from the breaker box. Is there naturally enough interference there? Now, when I set up a scene with the MS and its light switch - works 100% of the time, instantaneously. The only downside is that I had wanted to control it via a program because I'm using statuses and variables from all over the house to determine if ambient light is adequate in a room before allowing a light to turn on. But, I haven't been able to find a solution that allows me to do this when the light switch and MS are on a scene.
jerlands Posted January 10, 2016 Posted January 10, 2016 The MS in question is about 20 linear feet from the PLM. The other two are much further away.The difference (that I can find) is that the light switch which I want the MS in question to control is about 10 linear inches (or less) away from the breaker box. Is there naturally enough interference there? Now, when I set up a scene with the MS and its light switch - works 100% of the time, instantaneously. The only downside is that I had wanted to control it via a program because I'm using statuses and variables from all over the house to determine if ambient light is adequate in a room before allowing a light to turn on. But, I haven't been able to find a solution that allows me to do this when the light switch and MS are on a scene. The difference in scene control vs. program control is that in using a scene the devices talk directly to one another bypassing ISY, and so I would suspect the problem might be in the program. The motion sensor's setting also play a part when using programs.. I tend to check "Sensing Mode" and "On Commands Only" and avoid using "Control Off" in the program. Post your program and you'll get feedback on issues that might help. Jon...
MWoods329 Posted January 17, 2016 Posted January 17, 2016 The difference in scene control vs. program control is that in using a scene the devices talk directly to one another bypassing ISY, and so I would suspect the problem might be in the program. The motion sensor's setting also play a part when using programs.. I tend to check "Sensing Mode" and "On Commands Only" and avoid using "Control Off" in the program. Post your program and you'll get feedback on issues that might help. Jon... My program...... Kitchen at Night - [iD 0008][Parent 0038] If Status 'First Floor / Sensors / Kitchen-Sensor' is On And ( From Sunset To Sunrise (next day) Or Module 'Climate' Light < 40 ) Then Set 'First Floor / Lights / Kitchen Table' 100% Else - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action') Kitchen motion sensor settings: Timeout = 0.5 minutes LED Brightness = 10 Darkness Sensitivity = 200 Sensing mode = As motion is sensed LED On = yes On commands only = yes Night only mode = yes But that program is hit or miss if it works. Thoughts?
jerlands Posted January 17, 2016 Posted January 17, 2016 Change "Status 'First Floor / Sensors / Kitchen-Sensor' is On" to "Control 'First Floor / Sensors / Kitchen-Sensor' is On" Also, I think I'd eliminate "LED On" to save battery life. Jon...
MWoods329 Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 Change "Status 'First Floor / Sensors / Kitchen-Sensor' is On" to "Control 'First Floor / Sensors / Kitchen-Sensor' is On" Also, I think I'd eliminate "LED On" to save battery life. Jon... Thanks, I'm giving that a try today. Should the sensor remain in a scene with the lights?
oberkc Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 Thanks, I'm giving that a try today. Should the sensor remain in a scene with the lights? If you are intending to use the program to trigger lights based on certain conditions, then take the sensor out of the scene, yes.
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