Suggestions on Energy Metering

[Scottmichaelj]

I am looking to do a energy analysis on my home per circuit. We have a digital meter and my thought was going to be to turn off all the circuits on the panel then get turn each circuit on one by one individually and record the info. However that is not an option for my meter, so now I am looking for a decent product that I can use myself that I can put on each circuit of my electrical panel and log the energy data for a certain amount of time. I dont need one connection per all my circuits as I figure I will just move it from circuit to circuit. Does anyone have any experience with this and if so what do you recommend? Using 100kwh per day on avg seems a bit excessive in a newly constructed home with LEDs and new appliances.

 

I did see this company http://www.onsetcomp.combut they seem a bit pricey.

 

As always thanks in advance for your help.

[MWareman]

Most into this use a Brultech GEM (up to 32 channels monitored) and a Brultech Dashbox (connects to up to 2 GEMs serial ports, logs, trends and graphs power data and optionally provides current channel utilization to ISY variables via the REST API). I then have ISY programs trigger the state variables updated by the Dashbox (things like notify me when the fridge door is left open, washing machine is finished etc...).

 

I will caution, its not cheap either. Well worth it though.

 

For one at a time circuit monitoring, Aeotec make a zwave power meter that clamps around a cable, and provide data to ISY. You'll need some way to log values though (perhaps use a notification to write a csv file on ISYs user web space). However, because it doesn't measure voltage it only approximates power usage based on the 'normal' 120vac. Devices like the Brultech measure the voltage to provide a true power reading.

[Teken]

Hobo is a solid product but is geared more toward industrial applications than residential. Their product is very robust but extremely expensive for what limited I/O and software applications that are offered to the end user. They do not extend or cater to the average user meaning you will never see your idea being implemented or developed.

 

It does not offer very many graphs / charts and that can be adjusted or extended.

 

Do not even consider any of the toy like energy monitors like Smapee / Neurio which are based on lots of mythical unicorn software that is supposed to provide energy aggregation and tracking. Neither of these devices offer real world use or energy management and if you require loads under 400 watts to be monitored good luck.

 

Then there is Power House Dynamics if you want to be raped and bent over for the rest of your life buy one. If you lean the other way and decide to consider the Aeon Labs HEM again you will be sadly depressed at the money you through away on another toy.

 

I could go on with all the others but its Friday and I have 12 Beta projects underway.

 

Ha . . . 

[bgrubb1]

100KW's per day ???

I have 4006 sq ft with 13 tons of AC,  highest I have had in the last year is 108KW's on a 115 degree day

A GEM and a DB will set u back probably 800$ for 32 channels

Payback will be quick based on 100KW's, you need to know where those Watts are going

PM me if you want a link to my DB (Dashbox) so you can see what you could end up with

[larryllix]

...

 Using 100kwh per day on avg seems a bit excessive in a newly constructed home with LEDs and new appliances.

 

I did see this company http://www.onsetcomp.combut they seem a bit pricey.

 

As always thanks in advance for your help.

100kWh per day is really high and sounds impossible, almost. I have seen it in my travels but they were the talk of the utility.

 

I typically run about 9-12 kWh/ day but I an energy conscious and have some PV and lots of LEDs to offset my wallet consumption.

 

This equates to about 8kW for about 12 hours per day. Finding it should be easy to do.

 

Look at the front of your meter.

There should a factor somewhere that looks like this Ki, Kp, Ke ,Kh  or just K. This is the watthours that have been measured for each revolution of the mechanical disk. The factor should be 1.0  or 1.2 Kh.

 

You don't have a mechanical disk? There should be some moving dashes or a blinking LED/LCD segment somewhere on it.

 

Get your watch and set to stopwatch and time the passing of the spots back to the same place. Clock about a minutes worth of energy passing.

 

Use this calculation.

  Revolutions x Kh x 3600 / seconds  = Watts.

 eg. 4 revs x 1.2 kh x 3600 (sec/hr.) / 50 seconds = 345.6 watts.

 

This is your current (no pun) load (power) in Watts.

 

Energy (kWh) will be your power (kW) x the number of hours the load is on thus kiloWatt*Hours. (don't forget to divide by 1000)

 

Have somebody watch the meter while you switch off one breaker at a time. Have them yell, clank the pipe, use a walkie-talkie for feedback when you get a circuit breaker that changes the speed. Leave it off and go back out and reclock your meter, recalculate.

 

Now either that load was the difference or you just got caught with a load change. You can repeat for all the breakers. Don't flick breakers off and right back on again. Motors and some electronics don't like that. Give the circuit at least about 20 seconds for the off.

 

Look for heating devices and circuits. They are the bad boys usually. Zoom in on where your energy is going.

 

Got teenage kids? Got an electric  heater running in the basement and wondering why your gas furnace hasn't kicked in much in the last month?

 

Look for humidifiers and dehumidifiers running at the same time, Beer fridges, in the basement, with the door left open.

 

I did high bill complaints for a few years for an electrical utility. Just keep digging, you'll find it.

[Scottmichaelj]

@MWareman Ill check out Brultech, thanks! Guessing it can be installed at the panel right?

 

@Teken so you have a ton of dont buy these but didnt suggest a look into or buy X - ?? Care to add?

 

@bgrubb1 Ill PM you. Thanks for the offer. I need to figure this out.

 

@larryllix - my meter is digital and it has the total kwh total then flips to just a bunch of zeros with stars, then flips back. No easy way to clock it as it flips back and forth every 5-10 seconds or so. I have Puget Sound and Electric in Seattle. I contacted customer service today who basically said I SOL on trying to monitor the usage via their digital meter.

 

I am looking at getting a whole home generator so thats how this all came about. The fireplace, furnace, cooktop, and two 100G water heaters (with elect recirc pump) are all gas. I have energy star appliances and even just last Oct swapped the kitchen appliances out to Thermador. A Thermador builtin fridge but thats all. No extra freezers or fridges anywhere. I plan on adding two 18" Thermador wine cooling towers soon though. I do have a steam shower and spa tub but those are not used often - maybe once a month. My computer racks are maxing out at peak 500w but avg 300w. I also have a Daikin Split system to cool the computer room/workshop but even thats supposed to be energy efficient even on 24/7 set to 65F for a 15' by 20' space. To make matters worse I have no kids. Half the house lights are never turned on. I do work from home 24/7 and have two plasma TVs but they are not on for more than maybe a couple hours during the week and a few Sunday for football. I have a gym but only use the treadmill three times a week for 30mins. There is also a theater room with AMPs, PJ and AVR but dont use that more then once a week. Electric washer and gas dryer. There is an air purifier and EVR that run 24/7 via the HVAC fan.

 

My gas usage is below normal for the neighborhood even with my bigger appliances, fireplace and water tanks.

 

Beats me where the electric is going! Luckily the monthly cost is only around $350 per month for both gas/electric bill.

[larryllix]

.....

 

@larryllix - my meter is digital and it has the total kwh total then flips to just a bunch of zeros with stars, then flips back. No easy way to clock it as it flips back and forth every 5-10 seconds or so. I have Puget Sound and Electric in Seattle. I contacted customer service today who basically said I SOL on trying to monitor the usage.

 

...

This is not the usual readout on the meter. This is usually a jumping pair of LCD horizontal bars that are supposed to simulate a mechanical disk sliding across the screen or a single spot somewhere on the readout that flashes slowly or there may be instead or in addition an iR eye on the face where a technician can optically connect to the smarts inside the meter to analyse readings etc..

 

The meter readout will flash a segment test = "888888" and then the kWh reading since inception, then possibly a few other readings. You have to watch the little nomenclature to tell what else they give you. Sliding a magnet across the bottom f the meter can sometimes give you all kinds of techie information about currents, instantaneous power, power factor etc,,, on some meters brands. Complaining to the utility and watching the tech come out and read all this stuff may get you some free meter education.

 

There are wireless transmitter suction cups that glue onto the iR eye and will transmit to a house unit telling your the current load at all times as well as daily, monthly loads etc. They cost you about $100 and are easy to set up.

[Teken]

@MWareman Ill check out Brultech, thanks! Guessing it can be installed at the panel right?

 

@Teken so you have a ton of dont buy these but didnt suggest a look into or buy X - ?? Care to add?

 

@bgrubb1 Ill PM you. Thanks for the offer. I need to figure this out.

 

@larryllix - my meter is digital and it has the total kwh total then flips to just a bunch of zeros with stars, then flips back. No easy way to clock it as it flips back and forth every 5-10 seconds or so. I have Puget Sound and Electric in Seattle. I contacted customer service today who basically said I SOL on trying to monitor the usage.

 

I am looking at getting a whole home generator so thats how this all came about. The fireplace, furnace, cooktop, and two 100G water heaters (with elect recirc pump) are all gas. I have energy star appliances and even just last Oct swapped the kitchen appliances out to Thermador. A Thermador builtin fridge but thats all. No extra freezers or fridges anywhere. I plan on adding two 18" Thermador wine cooling towers soon though. I do have a steam shower and spa tub but those are not used often - maybe once a month. My computer racks are maxing out at peak 500w but avg 300w. I also have a Daikin Split system to cool the computer room/workshop but even thats supposed to be energy efficient even on 24/7 set to 65F for a 15' by 20' space. To make matters worse I have no kids. Half the house lights are never turned on. I do work from home 24/7 and have two plasma TVs but they are not on for more than maybe a couple hours during the week and a few Sunday for football. I have a gym but only use the treadmill three times a week for 30mins. There is also a theater room with AMPs, PJ and AVR but dont use that more then once a week. Electric washer and gas dryer. There is an air purifier and EVR that run 24/7 via the HVAC fan.

 

My gas usage is below normal for the neighborhood even with my bigger appliances, fireplace and water tanks.

 

Beats me where the electric is going! Luckily the monthly cost is only around $350 per month for both gas/electric bill.

I use a Brultech Dash Box (DB) and Green Eye Monitor (GEM). Which communicates with the ISY via ZigBee and Ethernet.

 

 

Ideals are peaceful - History is violent

[MWareman]

 

 

@MWareman Ill check out Brultech, thanks! Guessing it can be installed at the panel right?

 

Yes. Installed at the panel. I learned mostly from @Teken's fabulous tutorials over at the Brultech forum, but @Teken uses the Zigbee version and I have the Ethernet.

[Teken]

Yes. Installed at the panel. I learned mostly from @Teken's fabulous tutorials over at the Brultech forum, but @Teken uses the Zigbee version and I have the Ethernet.

 

Yeah its safe to say lots of people learned from watching my silly aszz stumble and fall. But, I did pick myself up and get things done!

 

Ha . . .

[KeviNH]

Another option is The Energy Detective, however the product does not have any direct ISY integration.

 

I started out with a TED5000 (~$200 to just monitor both phases for whole-house usage, or ~$280 for the 5002-G which can also monitor 2 additional circuits).    TED uses powerline communication (proprietary PLC) to get usage data out of the panel, does not interfere with Insteon.    There is a little display screen available (Zigbee), and the receiver unit connects to wired Ethernet, has built-in logging and graphing.

 

I just upgraded to TED Pro Home, this is more expandable, can add individual circuit monitoring in groups of 8 circuits.   They also have a more pro-focused product which does not use PLC at all.

 

TED installs at the panel, the main MTU works like a clamp meter.   Compared to other products available in the US, I think the base TED 5000 has great functionality for it's price tag.

I am looking at getting a whole home generator so thats how this all came about. The fireplace, furnace, cooktop, and two 100G water heaters (with elect recirc pump) are all gas. I have energy star appliances and even just last Oct swapped the kitchen appliances out to Thermador. A Thermador builtin fridge but thats all. No extra freezers or fridges anywhere. I plan on adding two 18" Thermador wine cooling towers soon though. I do have a steam shower and spa tub but those are not used often - maybe once a month. My computer racks are maxing out at peak 500w but avg 300w. I also have a Daikin Split system to cool the computer room/workshop but even thats supposed to be energy efficient even on 24/7 set to 65F for a 15' by 20' space. To make matters worse I have no kids. Half the house lights are never turned on. I do work from home 24/7 and have two plasma TVs but they are not on for more than maybe a couple hours during the week and a few Sunday for football. I have a gym but only use the treadmill three times a week for 30mins. There is also a theater room with AMPs, PJ and AVR but dont use that more then once a week. Electric washer and gas dryer. There is an air purifier and EVR that run 24/7 via the HVAC fan.

 

Long-term monitoring of individual circuits should give you a much better idea of what is consuming all the power, and from that you can decide if you really want a generator that can take on the entire house, or go with a subpanel transfer switch and only take on the most important circuits -- (handling multiple AC compressors can really tax a generator).   But that's really another thread entirely...

[Teken]

With respect to the generator assuming this is with in your budget I would humbly suggest you look at a more expensive model for the long haul.

 

Meaning most people go with the air cooled units which operate fine for the most part but in no way are they intended for long term use. Every manufacture lists exactly the expected run time and duration these units will tolerate and work in. You will be sadly mistaken if you believe they are intended to operate 24.7.365.

 

None of them will ever . . .

 

A liquid cool unit that also runs at low RPM's vs a air cooled that runs higher will last longer. Consider a unit that has built in load shedding and has high (burst) load start. Doing so offers great advantages where you simply can't purchase a much larger KWH generator.

 

I know lots of people like to eat all the marketing hype that the various geny makers dish out. But the key (basic) principle for any back up generator is supplying power to *critical loads*

 

Read that again critical loads . . .

 

That doesn't mean your freaking dryer, dishwasher, pool, etc is supposed to be on it! 

 

Trust me I get it, its great to know and say: While all you poor fools were in the dark I was in the hot tub enjoying the stars.

 

Yeah I get it but it makes you a schmuck because if the shi^t really did hit the fan. Those type of people couldn't figure themselves out of a wet paper bag. I've been around enough of these people who have more money than God but less intelligence and common sense to follow basic guide lines.

 

One thing to keep in mind like Generac these companies won't tell you at all these generators are a brick until such time as they are activated . . .

 

Read that again, activated!?!?

 

What does that mean to Joe Average, well it means if you decide to install this device yourself and for what ever reason the smart controller can't call home or have some random code entered it simply won't start!

 

I want people to sit there and consider how incredibly stupid that is . . . Anyways no matter what anyone tells you the installation of said generator is critical in that it will make or break what you ultimately have.

 

Consider the placement and that it should be placed at the highest point to guard against flooding or water penetration. Ensure who ever you get fully understand the principle of grounding the unit.

 

If this so called master electrician tells you not to worry punch him in the face and move on to another installer. More generators are damaged by electrical events due to improper grounding methods and techniques. The primary failures are improper maintenance, over load, and extended run times.

 

Regardless of what any of these geny makers tell you unless you literally live in the sun belt. Always install the cold weather package and use the appropriate oil for the climate in use that will offer the highest range of use.

 

Lastly, most if not all of the generators offer remote control, monitoring, etc. Review what you get and what costs are associated with said offerings.

 

Having being told you have to eat a extra $32.XX cell bill isn't something most people will appreciate just to monitor their geny which only gets used once a year if ever . . .

[Scottmichaelj]

@KeviNH, thanks for the info, I will add this to my list of products to look at.

 

@Teken, this is my topic post so it can be taken off topic if need be So for the generator I was looking at the Kohler 24RCL which is liquid cooled. However the issue is I only have 5' ft from my home to property line. The Kohler says I must have to have a 3' setback from the home. Add to the fact its 34" inches wide I won't have enough space. All "important" circuits have been assigned and planned for when I built the house. The wiring etc is already done. With the setback being so tight this becomes an issue forcing me to go to an air cooled 20khw (like the Kohler 20RESAL) that has an allowable setback of 18" from a wall. This is for normal outages, for SHTF I see things differently. Without taking it too far, if things did hit the fan, the question becomes, how long would the natural gas pumps stay powered anyway? So generator usage timeframe would be a gamble so is not part of that plan. Going back to the fact I use 2.9kwh on avg per day it appears I will be over a 20kwh generator sizing. Especially since 20Kwh really is only 18,000w since you don't want to push it full load. You think I would be ok? Considering my avg per day isn't all on either? This is where the controllers and load shedding would probably come into play more? Thoughts?

[larryllix]

@KeviNH, thanks for the info, I will add this to my list of products to look at.

 

@Teken, this is my topic post so it can be taken off topic if need be So for the generator I was looking at the Kohler 24RCL which is liquid cooled. However the issue is I only have 5' ft from my home to property line. The Kohler says I must have to have a 3' setback from the home. Add to the fact its 34" inches wide I won't have enough space. All "important" circuits have been assigned and planned for when I built the house. The wiring etc is already done. With the setback being so tight this becomes an issue forcing me to go to an air cooled 20khw (like the Kohler 20RESAL) that has an allowable setback of 18" from a wall. This is for normal outages, for SHTF I see things differently. Without taking it too far, if things did hit the fan, the question becomes, how long would the natural gas pumps stay powered anyway? So generator usage timeframe would be a gamble so is not part of that plan. Going back to the fact I use 2.9kwh on avg per day it appears I will be over a 20kwh generator sizing. Especially since 20Kwh really is only 18,000w since you don't want to push it full load. You think I would be ok? Considering my avg per day isn't all on either? This is where the controllers and load shedding would probably come into play more? Thoughts?

 

If you have a spot between two  walls and the neighbour's house is a few feet on the other side of the property line, I wouldn't even consider putting it there. Year back my neighbour installed a Hi-Eff pulse gas furnace. His wall was brick and mine was siding and that thing not only flooded my window with water vapour so I couldn't see out in the winter, it rattled the pictures on my wall when it ran, setting up a resonance to the low frequency. It was a tight property so we only had about 8 feet between the walls.

 

Currently my nearest neighbour has a back-up generator, and although it just made a whine when running, after a few year it has become noisy and irritating when it exercises every Friday. If we had a massive blackout in the heat of the summer and I had to have my windows open I would be considering sabotage after a week of that.

 

You need hedges and/or heavy foliage around these things to keep neighbours, with a freezer full of spoiling meat, from losing their cool (pun intended). People reported in the lower stats hurricane disasters getting a lot of hairy eyeball for neighbours while they watched their TVs and had lights on a night. You live in the USA and people have guns. A well place jealousy bullet from nowhere should not be encouraged.

 

On that same note, years back people in the solar energy forums reported that NG was always intact, despite electrical grid lines down for a month, wrecked homes, no water, hard to obtain gasoline, stolen generators, smashed PV panels, and general paranoia.

 

Get a micro-nuclear plant you can hide in your closet and black-out blinds so your neighbours can't see you partying while the neighbours kick your door in just to feed their starving newborn something.

[Scottmichaelj]

If you have a spot between two  walls and the neighbour's house is a few feet on the other side of the property line, I wouldn't even consider putting it there. Year back my neighbour installed a Hi-Eff pulse gas furnace. His wall was brick and mine was siding and that thing not only flooded my window with water vapour so I couldn't see out in the winter, it rattled the pictures on my wall when it ran, setting up a resonance to the low frequency. It was a tight property so we only had about 8 feet between the walls.

 

Currently my nearest neighbour has a back-up generator, and although it just made a whine when running, after a few year it has become noisy and irritating when it exercises every Friday. If we had a massive blackout in the heat of the summer and I had to have my windows open I would be considering sabotage after a week of that.

 

You need hedges and/or heavy foliage around these things to keep neighbours, with a freezer full of spoiling meat, from losing their cool (pun intended). People reported in the lower stats hurricane disasters getting a lot of hairy eyeball for neighbours while they watched their TVs and had lights on a night. You live in the USA and people have guns. A well place jealousy bullet from nowhere should not be encouraged.

 

On that same note, years back people in the solar energy forums reported that NG was always intact, despite electrical grid lines down for a month, wrecked homes, no water, hard to obtain gasoline, stolen generators, smashed PV panels, and general paranoia.

 

Get a micro-nuclear plant you can hide in your closet and black-out blinds so your neighbours can't see you partying while the neighbours kick your door in just to feed their starving newborn something.

House to house we have 10' ft between us. While I am not going to set out to be a jerk, when it comes to my own needs I don't give a crap about my neighbors. That being said I make sure to do everything as ascetically pleasing as possible and to code. I don't park my cars on the front lawn or blare music all day long. However I work from home and power is a necessity. I will make sure to run the test weekly at a reasonable time and I will even go over ask ask the neighbor what time works for them within reason. I even was going to purchase a higher end generator that was liquid cooled so the engine ran at 1800rpm/60dB's, which now may not be possible. I would even consider shutting it down at night to sleep. The only concern would be my refrigerator but as long as no one is going into it I think it could last until the morning, even if I had to put some items in the freezer. So far since moving to this home we have had maybe a total of 1 outage per year that only lasted for a couple hours at most. That said, friends in other areas close by were out for over 3-4 days, so it is possible to be out longer.

 

Your insight on the NG being intact is interesting. There is so much BS out there its hard to know what would really happen. At some point you would suspect the electrical pumps that feed the NG would stop running. My thoughts are you go with what you know not what you think for survival. If it works great, if not so be it.

[Teken]

.

 @Teken, this is my topic post so it can be taken off topic if need be

 

LMAO . . .

 

Now that part is out of the way lets stay on topic!

 

 

Energy Monitoring vs Energy Management: 

 

When I first came into this whole energy monitoring business. The primary goal was to obtain solid *factual* and accurate data about my home and lifestyle. I can safely state there was a long period where I was like everyone else. Where I bought all the gimmicks, toys, and home made gadgets which ultimately costs me more and didn't offer any real long term insight and accuracy.

 

My initial reply as you noted called out several home energy monitors and basically called out many are simply not worth the time or money invested.

 

I've spent the last 20 years in this hobby industry and have tested and used pretty much all the market has to offer. That is from a Killa Watt meter to the various Chinese clones. I have used or tested many of the sub $50 to thousand dollar units that enterprise sites use.

 

This has given me lots of insight about what to look for and to avoid.

 

It goes with out saying everyone has to start from some where and also meet a budget. I won't sit here and tell anyone they need to spend $500 - 10,000 for a energy monitor when all they need is just some basic information.

 

Nothing wrong with that at all if that is all you really need or this is pretty much a curiosity. With anything in life most folks fall into two camps and that is curious to serious. Sometimes curiosity leads to being serious and its safe to say this is just natural and very common to see.

 

But for the most part its like any fad where it was really great at the time but when it required work or a change in habit or lifestyle this is where you see a quick drop.

 

Energy Monitoring is the curiosity portion which naturally leads to Energy Management.

 

No matter what anyone tells you energy management is a change in lifestyle and more costs to meet intended goals and targets. It should be noted no matter how tight you're with your consumption at some point you will come to a tipping point where all the austerity measures will not let you achieve that mythical KWH target.

 

This is where energy generation comes into play and my good friend Barry G knows this best first hand.

 

Now, many of these energy monitors can offer basic insight to more detail while others appear to offer lots of insight but the reality is they offer lots of unicorn guess work and no accuracy.

 

The benefit with a plug in or any of the latest Z-Wave products that monitor energy consumption is they are essentially giving you a ball park and that is OK if that is all you need. None of these things can offer long term tracking and data aggregation which is the major key here.

 

How do we as humans learn?

 

We learn by doing and knowing a process works or doesn't work. Its safe to say many of us learn from mistakes and what not to do!

 

LOL

 

Devices like Smapee / Neurio use software to guess what the energy signature is and translate that signature into charts and graphs. Keeping in mind these two device and any other two CT set up can only offer you limited insight as to what is consuming your energy.

 

When you go the route of circuit level monitoring each breaker this is where you separate yourself from a hobby, toy, to being serious about monitoring your energy consumption and how best to manage it. This on the surface sounds easy why don't I buy a $800+ HOBO, or better yet why don't I buy a over priced $1200 - 2000 Sevant?

 

Well you certainly could and if you simply want basic information and charts go for it.

 

But most of us are here today because we like value . . . We can all relate that the 994 Series Controller offers the most value any other HA Controller has on the market. This is undisputed in any arena that you could possibly have a conversation with if the topic came up.

 

Why???

 

Is it because it offers 9999999999999 radios? Does it offer every possible cloud hosted service?

 

No . . .

 

It offers the person real world capability to engage the vendor with issues, wants, needs, etc. You and I literally have the brass ring to help shape the 994 Series Controller!

 

You will never have any say, input, feedback, or development in a Killa Watt meter, you will not see any upgrades to Smapee / Neurio, Savante, HOBO, TED, it doesn't matter if its a 10K Eaton, ever . . .

 

The Brultech company has been in business making dedicated Energy Monitors for more than 20 years. They don't make toasters, cups, blankets, speakers, etc.

 

All they make is the most reliable Energy Monitor (GEM) and the most flexible data service (Dash Box) ever created by man. I have personally used and tested 25 small to large energy monitors because back in the day it was a huge hobby for me and I also like to play with these things.

 

I can also tell you personally after working hand in hand with Brultech for more than five years this great Canadian company has only one purpose.

 

That is to offer the general public and enterprise a piece of hardware that is not only open source but capable. As I stated above you can certainly send a email to Savant, Eaton, Leviton, name any huge maker and see if they will offer features you want in that box.

 

You don't have to ask me what the answer is because I've asked and have been working with many of them in the past. Brultech has in the last five years taken on probably 300 feature requests from me and included them into their Dash Box / Green Eye Monitor (GEM).

 

Think about that for a minute . . .

 

Some random dude from the Internet has been able to single handily shape and craft a product to make it better and more than it should have been??

 

Incredible  . . .

 

As noted we all play our small part with doing Alpha / Beta testing for UDI. Having the privilege to help this company in some small way by calling out a bug or suggestion a feature that makes it better for the masses.

 

Incredible . . .

 

Back on topic: As noted the whole idea is gathering accurate and timely data that you can do something about. I don't care what you buy but you should realize if its not timely or accurate you're wasting your time. This is why having the ability to track and recall historic events is so important because instantaneous monitoring is great for specific use cases. But when you need to see and track down random faults or occasional use historic recall is what is needed 

 

 

Energy Management:

 

Once you get past energy monitoring and really know at a circuit level where your energy is being consumed and used. The next big step is doing something about it that works in your lifestyle.

 

As I stated above if its not easy or works in your life 9 times out of 10 it simply wont be done. The key thing about energy management is people believe changing out a light bulb will alter their money electrical bill.

 

You're dreaming or smoking something great if you believe that . . .

 

Trust me I was smoking the good stuff for awhile until I ran out of the fairy dust.

 

Ha . . .

 

Will update this post when I eat dinner.

 

Energy Management speaking plainly, is not very sexy and few people ever realize how unsexy it really is. When they are so focused on fad products or quick fix's like if you take this pill it will make you thin?

 

Really?

 

Take a magic pill and it will make you thin?

 

That's awesome I will take three! Yes that magic pill will make you thin but in no way did it make you healthier, stronger, and allow you to live longer. That is what good food will provide you along with consistent exercise, and random sex!

 

Yes, we can replace dozens of bulbs with Phillips Hue and go ohhhh pretty blue lights! We can even spend thousands of dollar on automated shades.

 

Do people see the skinny?

 

Doesn't at all address the fat does it in the home so what is energy management. First it comes down to the basic of the homes envelope and how tight it is. If your home is *leaky* it will have more air exchange per hour than the next home.

 

Sealing: This leakage or (air exchange) impacts both hot and cold environments so its important to seal all areas of the home to ensure conditioned air stays in place and not allow outside air to enter.

 

People can pay for a door blower test which in the big picture is awesome and worth the costs. But anyone can go to the dollar store and purchase a 6-12 pack of their choice of scented incense.

 

Waff the smoke around all the doors, outlets, windows, where ever . . . If the smoke gets blown or sucked out this is a area that needs to be sealed and caulked. Next, how much insulation is present in the home and is it enough for you real world environment??

 

Insulation: I don't really care where a person lives whether it be arctic vs desert proper insulation in the building super structure will help keep in / out the temperature. This is a good time to rent, borrow, buy a thermo imaging gun.

 

This tool will literally tell you where the hot / cold spots are in your home. Once known its a simple matter of adding the appropriate insulation to the attic, walls, garage, basement, etc.

 

Keep in mind insulation is one of the most un-sexy things you will ever do or buy. But, unlike other things it keeps on giving each and every year, forever . . . Important things to note is conductance, cellulose by default has a higher resistance to thermal conductance than fiber glass.

 

What does that mean in plain English???

 

It means it will allow your home to stave off *heat soaking* from penetrating the insulation. This offset can be anywhere from one hour to 12 depending upon temp extremes.

 

Insulate your attic space for R50 and above in my area I have pushed to R85.

 

Just completing these two things which are air leakage and insulation will reward you in a minimum of 30% of energy reduction. Keeping in mind this has no relevance to other factors that I will call out now.

 

Windows: If your windows are old school wood single pane. Save up and replace them with 3 pane low UV high solar gain.

 

Doors: If you have a metal door in any variety even if its a insulated one. Change it to a fiber glass or similar insulated door.

 

Garage Door: If you have an attached garage this is the largest open surface in your home outside of your roof. Purchase a insulated door and match the color to reflect your area. If its in the desert it makes sense to use a light color if its in the arctic it should be darker.

 

Insulate the garage interior space again this will stave off heat soaking and thermal conductance into the attached home.

 

Attic Fan: I don't care how many vents you have have another roofer come out and provide you with a written quote as to how many your home should have for your SQ you have. Then if he says you need more because you checked with 3 other folks in case he is a bold face liar.

 

If all of them say you need more install more . . .

 

But wait, you will have him install a solar powered attic fan one in the garage and one or how ever many they say you need for the home Sq Feet.

 

This active cooling will accomplish several things and that is draw out the moisture and encourage air movement and reduces *conductance* and thermo transfer into the home.

 

Shingles: As I indicated above the roof has the largest surface area in your home. This area should reflect the environment that it lives in. Meaning your shingles should be correct color to help increase heat in cold climates to being lighter to off set heat for hot climates.

 

You see the above my friend none of these things are sexy yet I assure you they are the epitome of Energy Management!

 

Now the next step is where you're going to see some crazy and awesome ideas yours truly is up too and what makes a home OK, efficient, to close *Passive Haus* standards.

 

Thermo Mass:

[larryllix]

House to house we have 10' ft between us. While I am not going to set out to be a jerk, when it comes to my own needs I don't give a crap about my neighbors. That being said I make sure to do everything as ascetically pleasing as possible and to code. I don't park my cars on the front lawn or blare music all day long. However I work from home and power is a necessity. I will make sure to run the test weekly at a reasonable time and I will even go over ask ask the neighbor what time works for them within reason. I even was going to purchase a higher end generator that was liquid cooled so the engine ran at 1800rpm/60dB's, which now may not be possible. I would even consider shutting it down at night to sleep. The only concern would be my refrigerator but as long as no one is going into it I think it could last until the morning, even if I had to put some items in the freezer. So far since moving to this home we have had maybe a total of 1 outage per year that only lasted for a couple hours at most. That said, friends in other areas close by were out for over 3-4 days, so it is possible to be out longer.

 

Your insight on the NG being intact is interesting. There is so much BS out there its hard to know what would really happen. At some point you would suspect the electrical pumps that feed the NG would stop running. My thoughts are you go with what you know not what you think for survival. If it works great, if not so be it.

Oh I forgot to add to my story of the hi-eff pulse furnace resonance.

 

I discussed the noise with my neighbour and he had his hands tied as the contractor put it where he asked it not to be put and he wasn't home when they installed it.

I informed him that I couldn't live with the noise and would pursue it. Even with a decent friendly relationship he told me there was nothing else he could do.

 

I contacted a lawyer and he suggested I try the city people first. Despite his chimney vent pipe terminating about 10" past the property line the city wasn't interested in pursuing that aspect but they did send him a warning that he would be fined $2000 for each month his strange steam emitting device was in operation. I lived with it for almost a year and a half before action was taken from the city. I felt sorry for the poor bastian.

 

I believe this was the ammunition my neighbour needed to go back to the contractor. The pipes were moved and the hole in the brick wall patched up within a few days and I never heard it running again.

 

Most municipalities I have dealt with have bi-laws that basically state "If a neighbour complains, you are wrong, and must do something about it."  This avoids specifying   x.x dBA of noise at 3 m and 36" high max x 48" girth but not where  the case of blah...blah... blah... Not withstanding x, y z.... The people can't understand that gooble-dee-gook anyway, and either can the lawyers so they BS and BS wins.  Your wallet always loses.

 

Be very careful how you tread. These things are expensive to install and then just remove again.

 

Best of luck with it though. I have batteries to last about 6 hours with the TV, ISY, Routers, Modems and a few LED lights on until the sun shines again. That can be almost a month in the winter.

[Scottmichaelj]

@Teken thank you for your detailed post. At the end of the day I need to sit down, look at my options and decide how crazy down the rabbit hole I want to go. So I need to see how much these things cost and decide how much I want to spend. Then as you say even then once you have the data will I be able to do anything REAL with it? Can I change my lifestyle or is THIS my lifestyle?

 

@Larryllix, I actually have city guidelines and HOA guidelines I must obey. However doing my due diligence I found no real documentation on generators for either. I have pulled all types of info and made calls to make sure I am doing what I am supposed to do. I think for whatever reason this falls into a grey area and if anyone decides to push the issue I will be grandfathered in, or so I hope. You bring up attorneys, but this works both ways. Ill just tell the neighbor to have his lawyer contact mine, hand him my lawyers business card and walk away. Most of the time its a bluff and when they learn that they have to pay to actually do something they back down. Will a neighbor really want to fight me in court for once a year and a couple hours of 60db noise? As long as I am not doing something outside the norm. My generator will be lower db than a lawnmower. Not trying to argue with you and I do value your insight. This is just my POV.

[larryllix]

@Teken thank you for your detailed post. At the end of the day I need to sit down, look at my options and decide how crazy down the rabbit hole I want to go. So I need to see how much these things cost and decide how much I want to spend. Then as you say even then once you have the data will I be able to do anything REAL with it? Can I change my lifestyle or is THIS my lifestyle?

 

@Larryllix, I actually have city guidelines and HOA guidelines I must obey. However doing my due diligence I found no real documentation on generators for either. I have pulled all types of info and made calls to make sure I am doing what I am supposed to do. I think for whatever reason this falls into a grey area and if anyone decides to push the issue I will be grandfathered in, or so I hope. You bring up attorneys, but this works both ways. Ill just tell the neighbor to have his lawyer contact mine, hand him my lawyers business card and walk away. Most of the time its a bluff and when they learn that they have to pay to actually do something they back down. Will a neighbor really want to fight me in court for once a year and a couple hours of 60db noise? As long as I am not doing something outside the norm. My generator will be lower db than a lawnmower. Not trying to argue with you and I do value your insight. This is just my POV.

Not a problem, Huddadudda.

 

I was trying to make you aware of things that can happen as it sounds like you may be encroaching on your property setbacks that will be written into the municipality bylaws..

 

I live in the rural but if encroached on one of my property setbacks and a neighbour complained I would be given x days to correct it or the fines would start. I assume this would be the same in any municipality. I cannot touch 15 feet on one side and 100+ feet on the other side. Not even a garden shed. There is also height restrictions for outbuildings.

 

It can get complicated. talking to the municipality bylaw  people, anonymously may help clear some unknowns out of the formula.

[Scottmichaelj]

Not a problem, Huddadudda.

 

I was trying to make you aware of things that can happen as it sounds like you may be encroaching on your property setbacks that will be written into the municipality bylaws..

Your absolutely correct and I am still looking into this. This great we are mentioning it as others who maybe reading this for their own research may not know about property line setbacks. However so far I uncovered nothing specifically is spelled out for a generators however there are setbacks for "permanent structures" which then goes back to my "grey area" is a generator considered a permanent structure or not? I assume it should be handled equivalent to how and AC unit would be installed. My next priority is to look into AC placement, as that could be used in my argument as a "comparable" item if someone squawks. As long as I follow the rules for it then I am probably safe, or again so I hope.

[Teken]

Still writing my novel . . .

 

Ha

[Scottmichaelj]

Still writing my novel . . .

 

Ha

Lol

[Teken]

Lol

 

I'm serious I updated the above thread! 

 

Ha . . .

[Teken]

 

My HVAC system uses the Honeywell Prestige 2.0 Redlink Thermostats. Models THX9421 - both thermostats do the typical schedules, wake, away, home, sleep. They Cool/Heat and can control a EVR/HVR. These models need a Redlink Gateway device to sync to the cloud and have apps allowing them to be controlled from wherever you like. There is a Honeywell Total Connect website where you can login from any PC browser and control your thermostats, however there is not any actual usage data. Also a downfall is the app is just for cooling/heating and you can't turn on the EVR/HVR booster fan, no geolocation nor any "energy saving features". Not that I would probably use them anyhow. There are NO APIs so you can't use the ISY or anything else to control it outside of the app/browser/physical device. The app and browser will show you the weather but there is no weather information on the thermostats. As one would suspect the humidity, outside temp (if you have a sensor installed), current temp, set point, hold, schedule, and normal display features are all shown on the stats.

I have a "TRUE" dual zone heating and cooling HVAC system. Meaning I have a thermostat downstairs and one upstairs, which are my zones. When the upstairs thermostat calls for cooling/heating it will then shut the dampers open/closed to the downstairs and just cool/heat upstairs or visa vera for downstairs. From what I have seen some thermostat companies call where the thermostat is a zone, but IMHO its not truly a zone unless you have dampers to close/open and only cool/heat the area/zone. Otherwise is just "fake" zone and if the downstairs is hot it turns on the whole system cooling the whole house. My system will actually heat and cool at the same time on Auto (per say). For example, I may have the heat on downstairs at 66 but if upstairs is set to 66 and upstairs gets to 70 the AC will turn on and cool down upstairs so both stories are constant temperature, no cold downstairs/hot upstairs. My neighbor thought I was crazy and asked me, why is your AC on in the winter? Again many people don't understand how true zoning in the home really work.

 

I have a York AC (electric/18 SEER) and a variable speed gas furnace. The system also includes a Honeywell TruFresh Energy Recovery Ventilation System (EVR) which mixes fresh air from the outside with air from the inside. The EVR allows for a "boost" which can be turned on via a remote or going to the "master" thermostat and enabling it. It then opens my dampers for outside air and bypasses the inside intake. So those times I burn the toast I can turn on the boost and the small is gone within minutes. This booster also is connected with my Thermidor Range Hood in the kitchen, so that if I turn the hood vent to 100% on the booster will also turn on with it to help with negative pressure in the house. I personally don't understand negative and positive pressure in a home but I been told having this feature is a good thing. I do understand you need to bring fresh air in to adjust for the air your expelling. The EVR has its own set of filters and gets washed out quarterly or bi-annually.

 

The air purifier is great and helps however may people don't understand how to properly use them. My air purifier doesn't have a UV light. This was by choice as I didn't want to spent the $500 yearly to replace it. Even if the UV light it on it doesn't mean its working 100% efficiently. I also went with the washable filters, over the replaceable paper ones as those were an added cost. The UV and paper filters are more efficient but also have an yearly additional cost. For a air purification system to work you must "refresh" or circulate the air from the house through the system. The more times per day this is done the cleaner the air. You also need to keep the windows closed and run the inside HVAC fan 24/7 - which I do. Obviously this takes energy and is not free but if you have allergies or asthma this can help with that. Because I run my system fan 24/7 and never turn it off I need to change my filters once a month. I also use high efficiency filters that have smaller "holes?" that capture more dust particles. As with any system you really should be changing your inside filters out frequently. There is a whole world of air filters and indoor pollution most people have no idea about. Just because you keep your windows closed doesn't mean you don't need to get fresh air into the home. I like the 3M Filtrete filters myself.

 

So that is my system via Honeywell. I been told by the HVAC installer my system is not normal and I did spend a lot of money upgrading it when building my home but I think as more and more people learn this hopefully will become the standard.

 

There are a lot of positives of my system but the one glaring negative for me is control. Not having an open API so that I can integrate my home automation or remote control system to my HVAC seems like a glaring oversight. You think Honeywell would know better since they are in security, HVAC etc however they just missed the mark on control which is sad. I would love to be able to ask my Amazon Echo what the downstairs temp is and it respond or look at the "info panel" of my remote and see at a glance. Then ask Alexia to set the temp, turn on the fresh air booster, or do it from the remote. Maybe one day something will happen. 

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Per the OP is was his reply in the TSTAT thread that Larry created which I thought offered great insight to the usage and needs.

 

So, after reading this most excellent TSTAT write up and gaining better insight about your system and life style. I can tell you most of the saving will come from personal lifestyle choices which you will need to decide if they are worth while.

 

If someone has health issues and the only recourse is to run their HVAC 24.7.365. there isn't much room for improvements outside of finding more energy efficient devices.

 

If this is something that is more a preference than there is a possibility to reduce some energy consumption. As I recall the OP also keeps his home extremely cold during the summer so again this comes down to need vs wants.

 

I can tell you 100% regardless of the energy monitor you have in place. It will ultimately come down to you choosing what to give up or reduce.

 

A common ground would be to run HVAC fan perhaps 8 hours a day. Just this one area will reduce your energy bill a lot. In most cases a energy audit is conducted so for the benefit of others can you let us know your routine and what devices are on and for how long.

 

Meaning since you work from home is the TV, PS4, Sauna all running during a 8 hour work day? 

[Scottmichaelj]

Per the OP is was his reply in the TSTAT thread that Larry created which I thought offered great insight to the usage and needs.

 

So, after reading this most excellent TSTAT write up and gaining better insight about your system and life style. I can tell you most of the saving will come from personal lifestyle choices which you will need to decide if they are worth while.

 

If someone has health issues and the only recourse is to run their HVAC 24.7.365. there isn't much room for improvements outside of finding more energy efficient devices.

 

If this is something that is more a preference than there is a possibility to reduce some energy consumption. As I recall the OP also keeps his home extremely cold during the summer so again this comes down to need vs wants.

 

I can tell you 100% regardless of the energy monitor you have in place. It will ultimately come down to you choosing what to give up or reduce.

 

A common ground would be to run HVAC fan perhaps 8 hours a day. Just this one area will reduce your energy bill a lot. In most cases a energy audit is conducted so for the benefit of others can you let us know your routine and what devices are on and for how long.

 

Meaning since you work from home is the TV, PS4, Sauna all running during a 8 hour work day?

Of course "working from home" really means playing the PS4 on my Plasma TV during my 8hr workday. HA!

 

I think I am going to do as suggested and see about getting a moderately priced energy monitoring device that I can plug directly to the circuits on the panel and log my energy usage. Some items I just may not have really control over or care to change my habits on, like running the HVAC fan 24/7 to purify the air. The thing is I haven't change my habits much from my past home (built and bought new in 2006) which was about 3200 sq ft with similar HVAC system, etc. Now this newer home is about 1000 sq ft larger and I am using triple the KWH, plus my last home had a pool. So I am just sitting here a bit bewildered about my energy consumption. I was even gone on for the holidays and my home still had around 30-40kwh of use!