rccoleman Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 I just received my ISY994i yesterday and spent a lot of time programming it last night. From that experience, I have a few observations/questions - The Insteon Hub and (I think) Indigo using the same 2413s PLM was able to link with mini remotes and motion sensors by just putting the accessory into linking mode (hold down "set"), while the ISY994 seems to require manually typing in the Insteon address. Is there a technical limitation preventing a more automated linking process for battery-powered devices? When I added a motion detector and gave it a reasonable name in the dialog box, it created three different nodes all with that name and no obvious way to differentiate which was the sensor, low-battery, and dusk/dawn nodes. After finding no guidance through a web search, I realized that the automatic names that you get if you leave the "name" field blank *do* include suffixes, and then the user is free to rename them from the UI. It was confusing to me at first and I wanted to point it out to other newbies who may be in a similar situation. I was happy to see the "Start Linking..." option in the menu that allows you to add a bunch of devices at once, but I was disappointed to see that there was no way to rename them until the entire linking process is finished. This led to my having a bunch of nodes with "random" Insteon addresses and no quick-and-easy way to identify which was which to rename them to something meaningful. Rather than trying to turn each of them on and off to figure it out, I just deleted them all and did them in smaller batches. It would have been a lot easier if I could have changed the name right in the growing list as I linked each new device, while it was still fresh in my mind. If there's a easier way to do this, I'm anxious to hear about it. Overall, I love the device, the flexibility, and how well it works compared to other options. Rob
stusviews Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 If you click the swirling arrows (to the right of the light bulb-Start Linking), then you can simply place the battery powered device in linking mode and the ISY will find it. Insteon ID not required.
LeeG Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 (edited) I added a motion detector and gave it a reasonable name in the dialog box, it created three different nodes all with that name and no obvious way to differentiate which was the sensor, low-battery, and dusk/dawn nodes. After finding no guidance through a web search, I realized that the automatic names that you get if you leave the "name" field blank *do* include suffixes, and then the user is free to rename them from the UI. It was confusing to me at first and I wanted to point it out to other newbies who may be in a similar situation. Try moving vertical bar to right to have space for node suffixes the ISY automatically assigns. Edited January 20, 2016 by LeeG
rccoleman Posted January 20, 2016 Author Posted January 20, 2016 (edited) Thanks for the quick responses, folks. If you click the swirling arrows (to the right of the light bulb-Start Linking), then you can simply place the battery powered device in linking mode and the ISY will find it. Insteon ID not required. Excellent! Thanks for the pointer - I'll try it tonight. I added a motion detector and gave it a reasonable name in the dialog box, it created three different nodes all with that name and no obvious way to differentiate which was the sensor, low-battery, and dusk/dawn nodes. After finding no guidance through a web search, I realized that the automatic names that you get if you leave the "name" field blank *do* include suffixes, and then the user is free to rename them from the UI. It was confusing to me at first and I wanted to point it out to other newbies who may be in a similar situation.Try moving vertical bar to right to have space for node suffixes the ISY automatically assigns.I think that I expanded the panel without any success, but I'll try it again tonight. I have another motion sensor that I can use for experiments. Is that true of the stock 4.3.26 firmware (what I'm running). Edited January 20, 2016 by rccoleman
LeeG Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 (edited) "Is that true of the stock 4.3.26 firmware (what I'm running)." Yes, for all the years I've been using an ISY. The 4.4.2 Beta puts .... on the end of a node name that does not fit in available space. I think that change is associated with Font size support for large displays.. May be necessary to restart Admin Console at 4.4.2 to change .... to full name after moving vertical bar. Would be good to click Help | About to verify Firmware and UI (Admin Console) are 4.3.26. Edited January 20, 2016 by LeeG
rccoleman Posted January 21, 2016 Author Posted January 21, 2016 If you click the swirling arrows (to the right of the light bulb-Start Linking), then you can simply place the battery powered device in linking mode and the ISY will find it. Insteon ID not required. It looks like that's just a shortcut to "Start Linking", and it still doesn't find my new motion sensor. I've tried putting the motion sensor into linking mode before starting the search, using single- or multi-link mode, putting it into linking mode while it's searching, etc. If I do "Add Motion Sensor" and enter the address, it finds it right away and adds it properly. It may seem silly to worry about this, but it bugs me that it's not working the way that I expect For what it's worth, I see no traffic at all during these "Start Linking" attempts if I start the Event Viewer and select option 3. If I add it using the address, I see a lot of activity and it adds properly. I added a motion detector and gave it a reasonable name in the dialog box, it created three different nodes all with that name and no obvious way to differentiate which was the sensor, low-battery, and dusk/dawn nodes. After finding no guidance through a web search, I realized that the automatic names that you get if you leave the "name" field blank *do* include suffixes, and then the user is free to rename them from the UI. It was confusing to me at first and I wanted to point it out to other newbies who may be in a similar situation. Try moving vertical bar to right to have space for node suffixes the ISY automatically assigns. I ran another test tonight using a shorter name and I now see the suffixes for the different nodes. Thanks!
LeeG Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 (edited) Start Linking is not used to add battery device. Put Motion Sensor into linking mode. Use New INSTEON Device Enter Insteon address of Motion Sensor Name of choice Use Auto Discover and Erase existing links Click Ok The ISY does not work like Hub (Hub does not create link records as ISY does) or other applications. Thanks for the node name update Edited January 21, 2016 by LeeG
rccoleman Posted January 21, 2016 Author Posted January 21, 2016 Start Linking is not used to add battery device. Put Motion Sensor into linking mode. Use New INSTEON Device Enter Insteon address of Motion Sensor Name of choice Use Auto Discover and Erase existing links Click Ok The ISY does not work like Hub (Hub does not create link records as ISY does) or other applications. Thanks for the node name update And that works fine. Stu's comment made it sound like I should be able to do it through Start Linking without entering the address, so I was trying to make that work. It doesn't happen often, so I don't mind entering the address if it's the only way to do it. Thanks, Rob
LeeG Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 Sending the Insteon address to Start Linking does not keep the battery device awake, unfortunately. Works fine for 120v powered devices but not battery devices that go to sleep to save battery power. As you say, adding a device to ISY is normally only done once,
stusviews Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 You can add battery powered devices without the Insteon ID. Select Start Linking, press and hold the set button (see Step 1), continue.
stusviews Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 If the Start Linking process is started within a minute or two for most devices after the battery power device is placed in linking mode, then the linking process is completed before four minutes elapses.
rccoleman Posted January 21, 2016 Author Posted January 21, 2016 (edited) This is part of what's confusing me - once placed in linking mode, the LED on the device (motion sensor, mini remote, wired-in switch, whatever) blinks for the expected 4 minutes waiting for something to link to it. My feeling is that it's awake during this process, and other devices (like the Insteon hub) immediately see it. It just doesn't happen with the ISY no matter what I do, so I'm trying to understand if there's something wrong with my process or if there's a reason why it shouldn't work. Like I said, it's not a hardship to enter the address, but it makes the setup for a new user more annoying, and unexpectedly so since other devices (wired-in switches, the Insteon hub) don't require the user to find or type in an address. If there's no technical limitation, it would be great to see the ISY pick up this capability in the future. Perhaps something has changed in the newer beta software? Edited January 21, 2016 by rccoleman
LeeG Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 rccoleman This originally was battery devices. Are you now experiencing 120v powered devices that Start Linking does not see?
rccoleman Posted January 21, 2016 Author Posted January 21, 2016 No, all wired-in devices add fine through the Start Linking option. The only reason that I mentioned them was that the linking mode behavior is externally similar (LED blinks and device appears to stay awake), but only wired-in devices are recognized during a Start Linking session.
LeeG Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 (edited) Here is what the Event Trace at LEVEL 3 should show when Set button tapped on 120v device. The Start Linking should put the PLM into linking mode. The LED on PLM should be blinking. Thu 01/21/2016 09:59:15 AM : Start Insteon Device Linking Mode Thu 01/21/2016 09:59:15 AM : [LNK-BGN ] 02 64 01 00 06 When the Set button on 120v device is tapped it sending a message to the PLM. The PLM comes out of linking mode for a split second which may not be visible before the ISY puts PLM back into linking mode waiting for next device or click on Finish button on Start Linking popup. Thu 01/21/2016 09:59:29 AM : [LNK-STAT ] 02 53 M(01) gid=00 22.8B.E0 011C 41 -,tap of KPL Set button Thu 01/21/2016 09:59:29 AM : [22.8B.E0 00] Linked device type=01.1C fw=41 Thu 01/21/2016 09:59:29 AM : [22 8B E0 0 ] Added to list of devices to link to ISY Thu 01/21/2016 09:59:29 AM : [LNK-BGN ] 02 64 01 00 06 EDIT: Okay, ignore this post. Edited January 21, 2016 by LeeG
rccoleman Posted January 21, 2016 Author Posted January 21, 2016 (edited) And that appears to be the difference with battery-powered devices. When I hit Start Linking, I see the LNK-BGN message from the PLM. When I then put a wired-in SwitchLinc into linking mode, I see the LNK-STAT from the switch and the PLM response that you quoted above. When I put a motion sensor or mini-remote into linking mode, I see no activity from the motion sensor at level 3 (no equivalent LNK-STAT). With the Insteon Hub, I can go through their "add device" process, tell it to search for motion sensors, put the sensor into linking mode, and it finds it right away. I don't see any activity on the ISY, but presumably that's because it's not directed to the PLM. I wonder how it's working its magic, though. Rob Edited January 21, 2016 by rccoleman
LeeG Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 (edited) The Hub is not linking devices. It has no logic to create Scenes (don't have one but that is what I get from the Smarthome forum). The devices are doing what native Insteon devices do when the Set button is pressed. The internal PLM in Hub is put into linking mode as if PLM Set button was pressed as the ISY PLM does by the ISY. Edited January 21, 2016 by LeeG
rccoleman Posted January 21, 2016 Author Posted January 21, 2016 (edited) Appreciate your continued interest in this, Lee. I can create scenes in the Insteon for Hub iOS app, but I don't know what it's doing under the covers. For fun, I connected my 2413s PLM to my Mac and started Indigo. If I go into Add Device, its event log goes through this sequence: Jan 21, 2016, 8:10:37 AM PowerLinc Linking - entered discovery linking mode (240 seconds) <-- Started the Add Device process PowerLinc Linking - received module button pressed from 36.81.36 <-- Immediately when I held down the set button on the motion sensor to put it into linking mode. As soon as this happens, it fills in the address automatically. PowerLinc Linking - exited linking mode I can't find a way to get more raw, detailed logs from Indigo, but it's clearly getting something from the motion sensor and finding its address without any user intervention. It also appears to be establishing links like the ISY does. Edit: I was thinking more about this in the shower (as I often do) and I wonder if Indigo is drawing an indirect correlation between several things: * I told it to look for a new motion sensor * The act of putting the motion sensor into linking mode causes it to detect motion and broadcast that event * Indigo sees that event and makes an assumption that that must be the device that I want to add. In other words, it's not a directed action, but more of monitoring a side effect and using some intelligence to figure out what to do. Is that possible with Insteon? Rob Edited January 21, 2016 by rccoleman
LeeG Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 (edited) I cannot explain what Indigo is doing with certainty. At this point not sure how Indigo would keep device awake. The Broadcast message that provided KPL device type and firmware information also has the KPL Insteon address so that Indigo having motion sensor address is expected. Edited January 21, 2016 by LeeG
LeeG Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 I cannot get Start Linking to work with battery device. Deleted a Motion Sensor and 8 button RemoteLinc 2. Could not get either to register under Start Linking. Added them back under New INSTEON Device. Someone else will have to pursue this. Sorry.
rccoleman Posted January 22, 2016 Author Posted January 22, 2016 Yes, that's the same result that I get. Thanks for following up. Stu, are you seeing different results? I'm also curious about the third observation in my original post. Is there any way to edit device names as they're being added through Start Linking, or do you just have to take notes (mental or paper) and do it at the end? I suspect that the days of onboarding lots of devices are long past for many of the frequent contributors here, but this is one of the areas that I think could be more polished to get a new user up and running more quickly. Rob
Michel Kohanim Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 Hello all, Apologies for missing this topic. You cannot link Controller Only devices using Start Linking. With kind regards, Michel
rccoleman Posted January 22, 2016 Author Posted January 22, 2016 Understood, Michel. This issue came up when I was setting up my devices for the first time and realized that I had to manually enter the address of each battery-operated device. Two 'competing' systems, the Insteon hub and Indigo (which also uses the 2413s PLM) are able to figure out the address automatically, so I was wondering if this was a technical limitation of the ISY (can't be done for some reason) or is a feature that could be added in the future to streamline adding these devices. Is it possible for the ISY to discover the address of battery-operated devices automatically in the future, rather than requiring the user to find and enter them?
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