"Applied Locally" Demystified

[dex]

I've been looking for some very basic information.  I'm sure it's out there somewhere, but must be searching for the wrong terms or making bogus assumptions. 

 

Can someone please point me to (or post) a definitive description of when, where, and how the "Applied Locally" attributes of an individual device are used?

 

I expected setting On Level [Applied Locally] and Ramp Rate [Applied Locally] would control the behavior of the device when I physically turn it on/off at the switch (in this case a SwitchLinc Dimmer).  But that doesn't seems to be the case. 

 

I know I can manually configure these switch behaviors through the various press-and-hold procedures on the device itself, but I want to do everything from ISY. 

[jerlands]

On Levels Evening - [ID 00C9][Parent 0090]

If
        From     1:00:00AM
        To       6:00:00AM (same day)
 
Then
        In Scene 'Master Bathroom Vanity Light' Set 'Light Master Bathroom Vanity' 20% (On Level)
        In Scene 'Light Master Bathroom Vanity' Set 'Light Master Bathroom Vanity' 20% (On Level)
 
Else
        In Scene 'Master Bathroom Vanity Light' Set 'Light Master Bathroom Vanity' 100% (On Level)
        In Scene 'Light Master Bathroom Vanity' Set 'Light Master Bathroom Vanity' 100% (On Level)
 

In Scene 'Light Master Bathroom Vanity' Set 'Light Master Bathroom Vanity' 100% (On Level) <<-- address the device itself will give local levels.

 

 

Jon...

Edited January 23, 2016 by jerlands

[stusviews]

I've been looking for some very basic information.  I'm sure it's out there somewhere, but must be searching for the wrong terms or making bogus assumptions. 

 

Can someone please point me to (or post) a definitive description of when, where, and how the "Applied Locally" attributes of an individual device are used?

 

I expected setting On Level [Applied Locally] and Ramp Rate [Applied Locally] would control the behavior of the device when I physically turn it on/off at the switch (in this case a SwitchLinc Dimmer).  But that doesn't seems to be the case. 

 

I know I can manually configure these switch behaviors through the various press-and-hold procedures on the device itself, but I want to do everything from ISY. 

 

If you're referring to setting the On-level and ramp rate when you select a device within a scene, then yes, that will set those attributes to the physical device. Are you changing the device wired to the load?

[dex]

Thanks folks.  I understand altering On Level and Ramp Rates in scenes and programs. 

 

I'm just trying to understand what those basic level settings do on a device, independent of scenes and programs.  Consider this simple case...

 

1. SwithchLinc Dimmer installed for an overhead light.  No 3-ways or anything extra.  Just a switch and a light, so yes, this device is wired to the load.

 

2. Factory Reset the switch.

 

2. Add the switch to ISY.

 

3. Within ISY admin console, select the switch device and adjust...

 

On Level [Applied Locally]:  60%

Ramp Rate [Applied Locally]: 2.0 seconds

 

changes are written to device

 

4. Go to the switch and turn it on (physically).   The light comes on 100% bright with the default (fast) ramp rate, not 60% with a 2-second ramp as I expected or desired.

 

If I control the device via ISY, the On Level and Ramp Rate are honored as set in ISY. 

 

My mental model is that "locally" means at the switch, which appears to be the wrong mental model for what those settings mean. 

[jerlands]

To adjust the levels you need to have the device in a scene which can be created with only the one device but needs to be added as a controller.  Then write a program to adjust the levels as described in post #2.

 

 

Jon...

[dex]

Thanks, Jon.  Makes sense why that would work. 

 

I'm still fuzzy on why a program can adjust those settings, but changing the device settings directly in ISY doesn't.    

[stusviews]

3. Within ISY admin console, select the switch device and adjust...

 

On Level [Applied Locally]:  60%

Ramp Rate [Applied Locally]: 2.0 seconds

 

changes are written to device

 

4. Go to the switch and turn it on (physically).   The light comes on 100% bright with the default (fast) ramp rate, not 60% with a 2-second ramp as I expected or desired.

 

Not here. If I click on the device and change the local On-level, I can see the level change both on-screen [Current State] [On Level] and at the load itself. At this point the load is on at the selected level. If I then turn it off at the switch and then on again, the load responds at the selected level.

[jerlands]

 

I'm still fuzzy on why a program can adjust those settings, but changing the device settings directly in ISY doesn't.    

 

My take on it is those settings are for ISY control and not device control.

 

Edit: oops.. just tried a switch and adjusting UI settings applies locally.

 

Jon...

Edited January 23, 2016 by jerlands

[dex]

Not here. If I click on the device and change the local On-level, I can see the level change both on-screen [Current State] [On Level] and at the load itself. At this point the load is on at the selected level. If I then turn it off at the switch and then on again, the load responds at the selected level.

 

Sounds like you are seeing the behavior I expect, but am not getting.

 

I too can change those settings (e.g. On Level [Applied Locally]) and real-time see the light adjust as I make that change in ISY.  If I walk over and turn the switch off and back on, it does not honor the ISY settings (On Level and Ramp Rate are still appear to be the factory defaults, not what's showing in ISY).

 

My devices are 2476D v.27 SwitchLinc Dimmers.  Are yours newer?

 

UPDATE:  I have a couple newer switches in my house. I tried the above with a newer one (2477D v.41) and it works as I expect!  The switch honors the On Level and Ramp Rate settings.   So, my mental model is correct, it just doesn't work on the older switches.  Now the question is, is there a fix for the older switches?  Is it ISY that's not properly writing updates to the older ones?

 

Appreciate the troubleshooting help, guys ... the fact that someone was seeing what I expected helped me dig deeper.

Edited January 23, 2016 by dex

[jerlands]

Sounds like you are seeing the behavior I expect, but am not getting.

 

I too can change those settings (e.g. On Level [Applied Locally]) and real-time see the light adjust as I make that change in ISY.  If I walk over and turn the switch off and back on, it does not honor the ISY settings (On Level and Ramp Rate are still appear to be the factory defaults, not what's showing in ISY).

 

My devices are 2476D v.27 SwitchLinc Dimmers.  Are yours newer?

 

Is your 2476D added to the scene as a controller?

 

 

Jon...

[dex]

I've tried within a scene and it doesn't seem to matter.

 

It appears to be something that's different between the older SwitchLinc Dimmers and the new ones.  The new ones behave as I expect. 

 

Perhaps it's something that couldn't be set by an external controller (e.g. ISY) in the early ones.  Perhaps it's a bug in ISY that shows up only when trying to write the older ones.  I'm running v 4.3.26 on my ISY.

[stusviews]

Even my very old SwitchLincs responded to ISY settings. Are you sure that it's a dimmer and not a relay? Have you tried setting the On-level manually?

[jerlands]

Does the local level work if done via a program?

Also, does the 2476D show it's version correctly in the UI?

You could try deleting the device then re-link to see if helps (programs should retain proper link if renamed exactly the same.)

 

 

Jon...

[dex]

Definitely not relays; they are all dimmers.  I can set the On Level and Ramp Rate manually. 

 

Not sure how to tell if the device version in the UI is correct or not.  How would I know? 

 

I did try a simple test program (like the one Jon posted above) and it also is not effective at altering the settings on the older switches, but did work when tried with the newer ones. 

[stusviews]

Just to clarify, I mean to set, not to adjust the On-level manually. Is that what you tried?

[jerlands]

Not sure how to tell if the device version in the UI is correct or not.  How would I know? <<-- In the UI under Main go to device and look at the name then just under it.

 

 

 

Jon...

[dex]

You could try deleting the device then re-link to see if helps (programs should retain proper link if renamed exactly the same.)

 

As I mentioned in the initial post, I started as "clean" as I could with a couple devices -- delete from ISY, factory reset, add as new device.  That's when I started questioning my understanding of [Applied Locally] since it didn't do what I thought it should.   With the help of you guys, I've confirmed that my mental model was correct, but the behavior I was seeing is unexpected (and still unexplained).

 

 

Just to clarify, I mean to set, not to adjust the On-level manually. Is that what you tried?

 

Yes, I can set the On Level and Ramp Rate of these switches manually as described in the owner's info that came with each switch. 

 

If I do it manually and then query the device, the ISY settings for those two attributes (On Level and Ramp Rate) are not updated in ISY to match what I set manually in the device. 

 

 

Not sure how to tell if the device version in the UI is correct or not.  How would I know? <<-- In the UI under Main go to device and look at the name then just under it.

 

 

The version numbers I mentioned above were the ones reported in the UI under the name.  v.41 on the few new ones and v.27 on the older ones.  I misunderstood the question as asking if I knew if that number was correct. 

 

In summary, here's what I've characterized in my configuration.  With the goal of setting On Level and Ramp Rate [Applied Locally] from the ISY Admin Console...

 

2476D SwitchLinc Dimmers v.27 do not work

2477D SwitchLinc Dimmers v.41 work

 

2412S PLM version v.72

ISY 994i Pro firmware version 4.3.26

 

Having already spent way too much time on this, I'm thinking that I'll just have to stick with manually setting On & Ramp on each switch and not use ISY to manage these attributes. Thank you for the time/effort you've also invested helping me troubleshoot, folks!

[stusviews]

The only concerns include not using the ISY to restore or update the SwitchLinc and, in the event you have to replace your very old PLM, you'll have to reset the SwitchLinc manually. BTW, I'm using a 2412S to power a 99i Pro

[Broyd]

Is this a possible problem? (running firmware 4.4.2)

 

I have dimmer switches for example (2477D) Dual Band SwitchLinc Dimmer v.45 and other dimmers that behave the same way.

In the admin console, I set the device to 50% On Level [Applied Locally].

 

If I tap the switch once (locally), it will ramp up to 50% AND THEN if I tap the switch once more sometime later, it will ramp up to 100%.

 

Now here is the possible problem. In the ADMIN COLSOLE when looking at the dimmer, when I tap the switch once, the "Current State" reads 50%. But then when I tap the switch once again, the "Current State" STILL reads 50%, NOT the 100% that the dimmer is actually now working at. Could this be a problem?

 

Level 3 diagnostic messages:

 

Tue 02/02/2016 10:21:51 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 3C.75.CD 00.00.01 CB 11 00 LTONRR (00)

Tue 02/02/2016 10:21:51 AM : [std-Group ] 3C.75.CD-->Group=1, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

Tue 02/02/2016 10:21:51 AM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [3C 75 CD 1] [DON] [0] uom=0 prec=-1

Tue 02/02/2016 10:21:51 AM : [ 3C 75 CD 1] DON 0

Tue 02/02/2016 10:21:51 AM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [3C 75 CD 1] [sT] [127] uom=0 prec=-1

Tue 02/02/2016 10:21:51 AM : [ 3C 75 CD 1] ST 127

Tue 02/02/2016 10:21:51 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 3C.75.CD 19.6E.0A 40 11 01 LTONRR (01)

Tue 02/02/2016 10:21:51 AM : [std-Cleanup ] 3C.75.CD-->ISY/PLM Group=1, Max Hops=0, Hops Left=0

Tue 02/02/2016 10:21:51 AM : [iNST-DUP ] Previous message ignored.

Tue 02/02/2016 10:21:51 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 3C.75.CD 11.01.01 CB 06 00 (00)

Tue 02/02/2016 10:21:51 AM : [std-Group ] 3C.75.CD-->11.01.01, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

Tue 02/02/2016 10:21:51 AM : [iNST-INFO ] Previous message ignored.

Tue 02/02/2016 10:22:13 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 3C.75.CD 00.00.01 CB 11 00 LTONRR (00)

Tue 02/02/2016 10:22:13 AM : [std-Group ] 3C.75.CD-->Group=1, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

Tue 02/02/2016 10:22:13 AM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [3C 75 CD 1] [DON] [0] uom=0 prec=-1

Tue 02/02/2016 10:22:13 AM : [ 3C 75 CD 1] DON 0

Tue 02/02/2016 10:22:13 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 3C.75.CD 19.6E.0A 40 11 01 LTONRR (01)

Tue 02/02/2016 10:22:13 AM : [std-Cleanup ] 3C.75.CD-->ISY/PLM Group=1, Max Hops=0, Hops Left=0

Tue 02/02/2016 10:22:13 AM : [iNST-DUP ] Previous message ignored.

Tue 02/02/2016 10:22:13 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 3C.75.CD 11.01.01 CB 06 00 (00)

Tue 02/02/2016 10:22:13 AM : [std-Group ] 3C.75.CD-->11.01.01, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

Tue 02/02/2016 10:22:13 AM : [iNST-INFO ] Previous message ignored.   

[LeeG]

Unfortunately that is expected of the SwitchLinc.  Does not apply to all Insteon devices.  Also when the SwitchLinc is a Controller of a Scene, the SwitchLinc Controller goes to 100% with second press but the Responder SwitchLinc remains at the Responder defined On Level.  The Responder SwitchLinc does not go to 100% with second On message. 

 

Tue 02/02/2016 10:21:51 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 3C.75.CD 00.00.01 CB 11 00 LTONRR (00) - the device presents the same message whether going to 50% or going to 100%

Tue 02/02/2016 10:21:51 AM : [std-Group ] 3C.75.CD-->Group=1, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

Tue 02/02/2016 10:21:51 AM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [3C 75 CD 1] [DON] [0] uom=0 prec=-1

Tue 02/02/2016 10:21:51 AM : [ 3C 75 CD 1] DON 0

Tue 02/02/2016 10:21:51 AM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [3C 75 CD 1] [sT] [127] uom=0 prec=-1

Tue 02/02/2016 10:21:51 AM : [ 3C 75 CD 1] ST 127

Tue 02/02/2016 10:21:51 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 3C.75.CD 19.6E.0A 40 11 01 LTONRR (01)

Tue 02/02/2016 10:21:51 AM : [std-Cleanup ] 3C.75.CD-->ISY/PLM Group=1, Max Hops=0, Hops Left=0

Tue 02/02/2016 10:21:51 AM : [iNST-DUP ] Previous message ignored.

 

Tue 02/02/2016 10:21:51 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 3C.75.CD 11.01.01 CB 06 00 (00) - second press of On paddle presents the same message sequence even though going to a different Local On value.

Tue 02/02/2016 10:21:51 AM : [std-Group ] 3C.75.CD-->11.01.01, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

Tue 02/02/2016 10:21:51 AM : [iNST-INFO ] Previous message ignored.

Tue 02/02/2016 10:22:13 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 3C.75.CD 00.00.01 CB 11 00 LTONRR (00)

Tue 02/02/2016 10:22:13 AM : [std-Group ] 3C.75.CD-->Group=1, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

Tue 02/02/2016 10:22:13 AM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [3C 75 CD 1] [DON] [0] uom=0 prec=-1

Tue 02/02/2016 10:22:13 AM : [ 3C 75 CD 1] DON 0

Tue 02/02/2016 10:22:13 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 3C.75.CD 19.6E.0A 40 11 01 LTONRR (01)

Tue 02/02/2016 10:22:13 AM : [std-Cleanup ] 3C.75.CD-->ISY/PLM Group=1, Max Hops=0, Hops Left=0

Tue 02/02/2016 10:22:13 AM : [iNST-DUP ] Previous message ignored.

Tue 02/02/2016 10:22:13 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 3C.75.CD 11.01.01 CB 06 00 (00)

Tue 02/02/2016 10:22:13 AM : [std-Group ] 3C.75.CD-->11.01.01, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

Tue 02/02/2016 10:22:13 AM : [iNST-INFO ] Previous message ignored.   

Edited February 2, 2016 by LeeG

[Broyd]

Thanks LeeG,

 

What generates these two messages? The dimmer or the ISY ( based on the On Level set in the ISY)?

 

Tue 02/02/2016 10:21:51 AM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [3C 75 CD 1] [sT] [127] uom=0 prec=-1

 

Tue 02/02/2016 10:21:51 AM : [ 3C 75 CD 1] ST 127

 

Thanks!

[LeeG]

Those are messages are generated by the ISY.  The ISY found the device Off so marks the device to the Local On Level.

 

Those ISY messages to not get generated by the second On paddle press because device is not Off.

 

 

Tue 02/02/2016 10:21:51 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 3C.75.CD 00.00.01 CB 11 00 LTONRR (00) 
Tue 02/02/2016 10:21:51 AM : [std-Group ] 3C.75.CD-->Group=1, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2
Tue 02/02/2016 10:21:51 AM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [3C 75 CD 1] [DON] [0] uom=0 prec=-1
Tue 02/02/2016 10:21:51 AM : [ 3C 75 CD 1] DON 0

Tue 02/02/2016 10:21:51 AM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [3C 75 CD 1] [sT] [127] uom=0 prec=-1
Tue 02/02/2016 10:21:51 AM : [ 3C 75 CD 1] ST 127

[Broyd]

Thanks again LeeG, it's interesting that when you press and hold the paddle to brighten or dim the device, the status seems to be reported to the ISY correctly - not always but mostly (BMAN SMAN). Brightening to full on gives a status of 255, 0 for full off.

 

Seems like a deficiency in the dimmer software ... A DON or DOF should always include the status (0-255) ...

[LeeG]

That is the result of a Stop Manual Change being issued by the device when paddle is released.  The ISY estimates the current device On Level based on the time between the Start Manual Change and the Stop Manual Change.

 

That process has the same exposure to being wrong when the Local On Level is defined at 50% for example and the On paddle is pressed a second time to bring SwitchLinc to 100% On.  Holding the Off paddle to Start Manual Change (down) long enough to bring device to 50% On will show device as Off by the ISY.  This is the result of the ISY thinking the device was at 50% (defined Local On Level) to start with even though device really at 100%.  The estimated On Level when the Stop Manual Change message is received.is Off but the device is physically at 50% because it started from 100% On, not the 50% the ISY thinks the device started at.

[Broyd]

Yes thanks. I noticed that exact behavior. I wasn't sure if the device was sending a value or the ISY was estimating a value. So this means that the dimmer never sends out it's current state? All we see is an estimate by the ISY? Thank you very much for taking the time to explain this stuff!