keribi Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 I have been having comm issues in a area of my home when I came across a post on here about a member using a "X-10 XPTR signal strength indicator"' for measuring insteon carrier voltage levels. I remembered I have one stored in my barn with my old retired X-10 components. I created a ISY program that sends a X-10 ON and OFF signal every couple seconds forever. The X-10 frequency is 120khz and Insteon is 131.65khz so the XPTR showed the insteon carrier levels fine. I found that the carrier voltage at the PLM is 1V and 250mV on the opposite leg near the PLM which is quite a drop. The outlets in the area of poor comm read 25mV or less (low as the XPTR can measure). I was able to find signal suckers in the area easily with the device too. Found out that the my TV and audio equipment made no difference in insteon carrier levels. Big signal sucker was the power supply for our power reclining sofa, it cut the signal by 25mV Filterlinc helped.. I am not sure what the rated sensitivity of insteon devices is? If anyone has that info please post it I am interested. This is just a heads up if anyone is looking for a way to measure insteon carrier levels the X-10 XPTR worked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottmichaelj Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 I have been having comm issues in a area of my home when I came across a post on here about a member using a "X-10 XPTR signal strength indicator"' for measuring insteon carrier voltage levels. I remembered I have one stored in my barn with my old retired X-10 components. I created a ISY program that sends a X-10 ON and OFF signal every couple seconds forever. The X-10 frequency is 120khz and Insteon is 131.65khz so the XPTR showed the insteon carrier levels fine. I found that the carrier voltage at the PLM is 1V and 250mV on the opposite leg near the PLM which is quite a drop. The outlets in the area of poor comm read 25mV or less (low as the XPTR can measure). I was able to find signal suckers in the area easily with the device too. Found out that the my TV and audio equipment made no difference in insteon carrier levels. Big signal sucker was the power supply for our power reclining sofa, it cut the signal by 25mV Filterlinc helped.. I am not sure what the rated sensitivity of insteon devices is? If anyone has that info please post it I am interested. This is just a heads up if anyone is looking for a way to measure insteon carrier levels the X-10 XPTR worked. Hmm never knew this existed, thanks for the info. I may have to pickup one for myself. FWIW these were also made/sold by Leviton X-10 Decora 6386 Signal Strength Indicator. In case someone else is looking for one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 Correct me if I am wrong but none of these devices are being made and sold, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottmichaelj Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 Correct me if I am wrong but none of these devices are being made and sold, right? I don't think so but you can find some in the usual places. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWareman Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 I measure mine with a scope.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulbates Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 ... I am not sure what the rated sensitivity of insteon devices is? If anyone has that info please post it I am interested. This is just a heads up if anyone is looking for a way to measure insteon carrier levels the X-10 XPTR worked. Keribi Insteon is 10mV for receive. All the insteon spec are in the whitepaper. This sensitivity is on page 10 Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
502ss Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 I measure mine with a scope.... A stethoscope? Can you actually here the signal flowing through the electrical lines? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulbates Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 A stethoscope? Can you actually here the signal flowing through the electrical lines? I hear the ocean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWareman Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 Also worth noting - because of the frequency offset - it's likely that the X10 meter will under measure. I'd have to compare a scope measurement to be sure - but I don't have the X10 unit. At the prices some are asking for it on ebay - it's almost worth getting a scope instead. According to the specs (these are the minimum transmit level and the minimum level that a compliant device must accept): Min Transmit Level 3.16 Vpp into 5 Ohms Min Receive Level 10 mV and An INSTEON powerline signal uses a carrier frequency of 131.65 KHz, with a nominal amplitude of 4.64 volts peak-to-peak into a 5 ohm load. In practice, the impedance of powerlines varies widely, depending on the powerline configuration and what is plugged into it, so measured INSTEON powerline signals can vary from sub-millivolt to more than 5 volts. ..whatever that implies... As long as the signal measures > 10mv - *most* devices should be able to receive it. A stethoscope? Can you actually here the signal flowing through the electrical lines? This is what I have... just a basic one - but does the job. http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/72-2580 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 A stethoscope? Can you actually here the signal flowing through the electrical lines? I hear the ocean Not sure how you got a hold of my sea shell?!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulbates Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 Not sure how you got a hold of my sea shell?!?! I wanted to get all of the sensors out of it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 I wanted to get all of the sensors out of it Paul, Stanley, Frank, Bob - Can you hear me now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 Not sure how you got a hold of my sea shell?!?! I'd rather have a see shell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keribi Posted January 29, 2016 Author Share Posted January 29, 2016 Thanks for the info on device sensitivity! I totally forgot i even had this x-10 meter. Very useful tool. I ended up moving the PLM to the opposite leg for better comm. Solved my comm issues at least for now. I would like to add a output for a scope connection to the XPTR for better resolution below 25mV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian H Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 Even some of the new appliances with electronic controls can be a signal sucker. I have seen some Washers, Dryers and Refrigerators to name a few. Reported as problem makers. I have a JV Digital Engineering XTBM X10 meter and use it from time to time. To check for signal issues sending an X10 power line signal. I does see Insteon commands but is not to accurate. Even indicates it received an Insteon command on its LCD display. The ELK ESM-1 X10 power line signal tester also shows relative Insteon strength on its bargraph display. I can even see the responses from other module when the ACK a command. Though with all the signals being resent. I am not sure how accurate the reading in the outlet in question is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silversop Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 On this subject (not the sounds of the sea)... In theory, if a PLM and 1 device are on the same leg in a 220v service, shouldn't the signal be strong enough? My exact example: I am trying out insteon (new guy) and have the ISY994 controller and the PMA sitting in my office. The PLM is plugged into a non switched plug. I purchased the garage module from Insteon and plug it in the garage and there is no connection.. I did check and it was on the opposite leg ... Fine I get that.. But then I moved it into the house and started moving it around to find out what it's range was... I have it plugged in about 20 feet from the PLM and it won't connect... about 10 feet.. sure thing... As far as the breakers during the inside of the house test.. they are on the same leg and close to each other. I ordered a Range extender and a LED bulb to try to see if it's just a matter of to much attenuation happening on the power side of things so perhaps it's only working on RF. Anyway, help a newbie out please. Regards, S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian H Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Unless they are on the same branch circuit. They still may not communicate. If there are signal suckers or noise makers on the circuits. The I/O Linc in the Garage Kit is an older design. Power Line only type module. So I/O Linc has to get its commands by power line. Can be directly or passed on by another Insteon Single or Dual band device. If the PLM is on the same branch circuit as the computing equipment or the AC input side of an UPS. They have been known to be problem makers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulbates Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 To add to Brian's comments: Ideally the plm gets plugged in close to the electrical panel, that puts it at the center of the electrical system to support powerline only devices like the iolinc. A signallinc bridge should be installed in the panel, or, a range extender plugged in nearby the panel on an outlet on the opposite leg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerlands Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 You can use the PLM to perform a beacon (4 tap) test then locate nearby the opposite leg with the range extender, that may help bridge. Jon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silversop Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 To add to Brian's comments: Ideally the plm gets plugged in close to the electrical panel, that puts it at the center of the electrical system to support powerline only devices like the iolinc. A signallinc bridge should be installed in the panel, or, a range extender plugged in nearby the panel on an outlet on the opposite leg Unless they are on the same branch circuit. They still may not communicate. If there are signal suckers or noise makers on the circuits. The I/O Linc in the Garage Kit is an older design. Power Line only type module. So I/O Linc has to get its commands by power line. Can be directly or passed on by another Insteon Single or Dual band device. If the PLM is on the same branch circuit as the computing equipment or the AC input side of an UPS. They have been known to be problem makers. Guys this is great.. thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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