Dimming Scenes with Echo

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi ccclapp,

 

Based on our measurements (you can test this yourself), every dim command you send to a scene, usually dims the members by 2-5% (varies depending on the device). The main issue is that, unlike devices, you cannot send a level to a scene with INSTEON.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[dywicked]

Hi Michel,

 

That makes sense - I only read the Insteon white paper once and immediately almost forgot everything. So if the set brightness command is only applicable to a device, and ISY has its own awareness of the devices in a scene, would another workaround possibility be to issue the set brightness command to every device in the scene? Maybe even make this a toggleable option in the portal so you can have "Fixed" or "Variable" scenes?

 

Regards,

 

-David

[ccclapp]

Hi ccclapp,

 

Based on our measurements (you can test this yourself), every dim command you send to a scene, usually dims the members by 2-5% (varies depending on the device). The main issue is that, unlike devices, you cannot send a level to a scene with INSTEON.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

Ill take that as a "yes"  Thanks

 

Now Im going OT and will start a new post if it becomes a conversation.  It relates to using programs to better control scenes...

 

Goal: Use a KP button to do more/different functions to a scene than the built-in on/off, fade up/dn, fast on/off from being a Controller of the scene.

 

Method:

 

1. Removed button from scene

2. Put button in toggle mode

3. Created programs to control the scene all based on the button actions, where by:

  a. button on or off = scene On

  b. button fade up/dn = scene fade up/dn

  c. button fast on or fast off = a different scene On

 

Result:This generally worked, but results were not constant, e.g repeated (slow) button presses yielded different and inconsistent light levels (but On and Off both trigger scene On via the controlling program)

 

The gist of my question is:  Is it a mistake to try to circumvent native insteon functionality by using programs?  This is what dimming a scene via a program for Echo and what my button scheme attempt to do.  

 

Thanks!!

[Banichi]

Was just trying this with my scenes and Alexa said the command wasn't available for that device. Bummer. Almost all of my "devices" are scenes as many of my lights are either 3-way setups or are utilizing in-linelincs with KPLs or switchlincs, so pretty much 3-ways.

 

Though in talking with my wife about this she made me realize that creating multiple scenes, while somewhat bulky in the ISY, would still be a single command to the echo.

 

For example saying:

Alexa, set 'dining room lights' to 50 percent

 

Isn't any more work than saying:

Alexa, turn 'dining room lights 50' on

 

My question in that scenario would be could I then invoke "Alexa, turn 'dining room lights' off" while the 50% scene is active and have the dining room lights go off? Or would I need to invoke the 50% scene to turn off. While the latter is likely the answer and it is doable, it is not intuitive so would not be preferred.

 

Need to get smart home to create firmware that allows setting scenes to a brightness level. Then all will be well with scene control.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[dywicked]

Ill take that as a "yes" Thanks

 

Is it a mistake to try to circumvent native insteon functionality by using programs? This is what dimming a scene via a program for Echo and what my button scheme attempt to do.

 

Insteon's white paper confirms that there is no command to set the brightness level of a scene as there is for a device.

 

I kinda feel like the whole point of ISY is not to necessarily "circumvent" native Insteon functionality, but to build on top of it. At least, that's why I use it. Given the breadth of devices Insteon makes and the fact that many of them would have limited usefulness without higher-level programming on top of the native capabilities, I would go as far as saying that Insteon expects it.

 

Best,

 

-David

[LeeG]

I'm not suggesting the objective is not valid.  However, do you folks understand how Insteon sets each Scene Responder device On Level to a unique and separate value?  That there is no Insteon command that would accept x number of new override On Levels, one new value for each Scene Responder device?     

 

I have a Scene xxxx with 6 Responders.

 

Responder device 1 has an On Level of 100%

Responder device 2 has an On Level of 100%

Responder device 3 has an On Level of 60%

Responder device 4 has an On Level of 40%

Responder device 5 has an On Level of 10%

Responder device 6 has an On Level of Off

 

How would you adjust each of the 6 devices as the On Level for each Responder is stored in the Responder device. 

 

[ScottAvery]

This issue calls into question the short sighted decision to make groups and scenes identical in the Insteon protocol.  They should be two independent functions.  It has been easy to work around, but now with the advent of much more flexible and intuitive inputs (voice and other integrations) we need the flexibility that two separate capabilities would provide.

 

An ideal work around would be to have the portal create new scenes through the ISY to set devices to 10% increments, then have the portal select the most appropriate scene upon receiving a scene level set request from Alexa.  This could be an option that a user would manually invoke from the portal interface to create these portal-managed scenes.  User could tweak the auto generated scenes to handle one-offs, like on-level of 0 for devices the scene specifically excludes.  That said, the specific case of zero on levels could be kept static in each scene.

[dywicked]

I'm not suggesting the objective is not valid. However, do you folks understand how Insteon sets each Scene Responder device On Level to a unique and separate value? That there is no Insteon command that would accept x number of new override On Levels, one new value for each Scene Responder device?

 

I have a Scene xxxx with 6 Responders.

 

Responder device 1 has an On Level of 100%

Responder device 2 has an On Level of 100%

 

Responder device 3 has an On Level of 60%

 

Responder device 4 has an On Level of 40%

 

Responder device 5 has an On Level of 10%

 

Responder device 6 has an On Level of Off

 

How would you adjust each of the 6 devices as the On Level for each Responder is stored in the Responder device.

 

I understand the problem you are describing - I think what I am saying is that for certain applications / scenarios, these limitations of the protocol can be overcome as long as the user understands how these workarounds are implemented.

 

For example, in one room I have a switclinc dimmer and a few lamplinc dimmers. I never set these independently, I always have them at the same level (whatever it is). For this specific scenario, which I think is very common - it would be simple for the ISY to look at its own database, and have the PLM send the Insteon command to every device in the scene to set the on level to x (0-255) based on what the user inputs (says). It would be important for the user to understand that if they enable this functionality it will override whatever on-levels the current scene has set, but would be very useful to have as a capability when appropriate.

 

In theory this could be implemented in even more complicated ways, for example - apply stated on level only to devices which are already on in the scene, unless all are off in which case set all to the specified level etc.. But baby steps I guess? I suppose it would be best if this logic could be written directly by the user (programs that can take a brightness level via voice and operate on it as a variable).

 

-David

[dywicked]

This issue calls into question the short sighted decision to make groups and scenes identical in the Insteon protocol. They should be two independent functions. It has been easy to work around, but now with the advent of much more flexible and intuitive inputs (voice and other integrations) we need the flexibility that two separate capabilities would provide.

 

An ideal work around would be to have the portal create new scenes through the ISY to set devices to 10% increments, then have the portal select the most appropriate scene upon receiving a scene level set request from Alexa. This could be an option that a user would manually invoke from the portal interface to create these portal-managed scenes. User could tweak the auto generated scenes to handle one-offs, like on-level of 0 for devices the scene specifically excludes. That said, the specific case of zero on levels could be kept static in each scene.

Definitely a bad decision from an end-user perspective. There may have been a good reason from an implementation perspective.

 

-David

[dywicked]

Ugh, sorry for the relentless chatter, but I'll just try and make this as simple as possible: I can achieve what I want right now by creating groups in the Alexa app. So, clearly software can make possible the objective I wish to achieve. However I'm lazy, particularly about things I've already done and feel like I shouldn't have to again.

 

So, as a convenience it would be great if somewhere (either in ISY or portal) I could check a box to toggle "Treat this scene as a group", which would automatically send the appropriate individual commands to each device in the scene instead of a scene broadcast.

 

This would save me a lot of time, both initially / ongoing as I make changes and it's also going to work better; as the "grouping" can be initiated from the ISY instead of at Amazon's service.

 

I understand that to have the grouping initiate from the ISY would require changes to the ISY, and I think that's just the cleanest way of doing it, but if implementing in the Portal for the time being meant functionality could be delivered earlier, I would be very happy. It still saves me a lot of time and is one hop closer to my home.

 

Anyway, this is all just wishful thinking and fun discussion!

 

Regards,

 

-David

[Jimbo.Automates]

I know it goes against the insteon way, but what I did in my hue emulator in ISYHelper was if you had set spoken on a scene, and asked to set that scene to 50% then it would set all dimmable responders in that scene to 50%. It makes sense for a simple scene like a 3way, and for a scene that contains our 2 bedroom lamps.

 

Trying to tell my wife that you can't set a brightness level of the kitchen cans because it's a scene, and insteon doesn't work that way results I rolling eyes... So I prefer it to just work as expected.

 

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[ScottAvery]

I know it goes against the insteon way, but what I did in my hue emulator in ISYHelper was if you had set spoken on a scene, and asked to set that scene to 50% then it would set all dimmable responders in that scene to 50%. It makes sense for a simple scene like a 3way, and for a scene that contains our 2 bedroom lamps.

 

Trying to tell my wife that you can't set a brightness level of the kitchen cans because it's a scene, and insteon doesn't work that way results I rolling eyes... So I prefer it to just work as expected.

 

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

this might be the best argument for using an emulator with or instead of the portal

 

I am going to try a state variable instead, with a few programs to respond to a change.

[dywicked]

I know it goes against the insteon way, but what I did in my hue emulator in ISYHelper was if you had set spoken on a scene, and asked to set that scene to 50% then it would set all dimmable responders in that scene to 50%. It makes sense for a simple scene like a 3way, and for a scene that contains our 2 bedroom lamps.

 

Trying to tell my wife that you can't set a brightness level of the kitchen cans because it's a scene, and insteon doesn't work that way results I rolling eyes... So I prefer it to just work as expected.

 

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

What's funny is I actually had this working exactly as you describe using your ISYHelper shortly before connected home was announced, but I forgot.

 

It seems that you do exactly what I described earlier in the thread (just set all responders in the scene to x). My wife definitely rolled her eyes, but not before I did myself. I'm technical and love tinkering but am easily frustrated when things don't work the way I expect them to.

 

Like you said, it just makes sense for simple scenes.

 

Best,

 

-David

[MWareman]

I think the confusion also comes in because when you add multiple Switchlincs into a scene - with all being a controller and one of them connected to a load, you can dim and brighten the scene from any of the controller switches.

 

To then say scenes cannot be dimmed thru the protocol simply dosnt equate with the ability to dim a scene from any member switch.

 

A way needs to be found to implement scene dimming thru the rest interface and, by extension, Alexa.

 

If a scene has 3 devices in it (A,B and C) with the on level for A and B being 100% and the on level for C being 50% - what is so hard about a scene on 50% command (thru rest or Alexa) resulting in scene members being set to 50% of the normal on level for the scene - so A and B end up at 50% and C ends up at 25%?

 

That would allow the WAF to be preserved... Just my $0.02.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello everyone,

 

Thanks so very much for the feedback.

 

It seems that we are going a little in circle: We are adding support for Dim/Brighten to scenes and sending multiple dim commands will work (incrementally). Asking ISY, the Portal, or REST commands to have a loop and send n number of Dim commands automatically is not a good idea regardless of how it's accomplished:

1. Scene commands create more traffic especially due to all the cleanup messages

2. If the scene is large, the caller MUST put a wait between each invocation (i.e. you are going to see incremental dimming)

3. There's no guarantee that all devices in the scene will have the same level to begin with. So, if A is 100%, B is at 75%, and C is at 50%, Dim to 50% will turn off C

4. Iterating through devices in a group/folder - and depending on the number of devices - may cause an Echo timeout

 

The least ugly of all these ugly solutions is what Banichi suggested:

a. Create a 50% dim scene and call it

b. You can also use Adjust Scene in ISY Programs to change the on level of devices in #a according to some time or some event (warning, this might take a long time especially if you have too many devices in that scene)

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[sdcrane]

I have been following this thread because I am in the same situation with having an Echo and having room(s) that have multiple devices/switches that for years I have been controlling (turning off/on/dim) by using a Scene in my ISY -- eg. my family room / sun room has about 6 switchlinc switches and a few lamps that make up one Scene.  After I purchased the Echo and set up the ISY Portal, I just mapped that Scene to "Family Room" and it turns on and off the entire Scene (family room) no problem -- but of course no dimming was possible, as this thread has been discussing ("that command doesn't work on device 'family room'").

 

So, as others have mentioned, I put all of the devices that were in my Scene into a "Group" in the Alexa app and sure enough you can say "Set Family Room to X pct" and it works great -- sets the dim level appropriately.  That part is GREAT.  What happens though, is that it sends the commands to EACH DEVICE INDIVIDUALLY (of course it does!), whether you are turning the lights on, off, or dimming them.  So at least you CAN dim them, but now when turning on/off the family room lights, it takes longer, and it looks strange, doing them one at a time.  So now I need 2 different "names" for the Family Room (one for the Scene and one for the Group) if I want to continue to turn all of the lights on or off ALL AT THE SAME TIME, and still be able to dim them to any brightness level.

 

Just thought I would throw that out there since I have not seen anyone make mention of this... or maybe there is something I can do different/better.

 

Stuart

[accd]

I don't understand the comment about need to turn on a light with Echo and then dim with ISY. We just tell the Echo the level of dim / bright we want, and it tells the ISY where to set it. No "going back" needed. The thing just works!

I was referring to using the native Echo function to turn complete rooms on etc.(echo basically turns things on or off) . then if needed or desired I can always dim the included lights via the ISY, so I'm using both functions, not that you really need to, but in some instance it comes in handy.

[dywicked]

Hello everyone,

 

Thanks so very much for the feedback.

 

It seems that we are going a little in circle: We are adding support for Dim/Brighten to scenes and sending multiple dim commands will work (incrementally). Asking ISY, the Portal, or REST commands to have a loop and send n number of Dim commands automatically is not a good idea regardless of how it's accomplished:

1. Scene commands create more traffic especially due to all the cleanup messages

2. If the scene is large, the caller MUST put a wait between each invocation (i.e. you are going to see incremental dimming)

3. There's no guarantee that all devices in the scene will have the same level to begin with. So, if A is 100%, B is at 75%, and C is at 50%, Dim to 50% will turn off C

4. Iterating through devices in a group/folder - and depending on the number of devices - may cause an Echo timeout

 

The least ugly of all these ugly solutions is what Banichi suggested:

a. Create a 50% dim scene and call it

b. You can also use Adjust Scene in ISY Programs to change the on level of devices in #a according to some time or some event (warning, this might take a long time especially if you have too many devices in that scene)

 

With kind regards,

Michel

Hi Michel,

 

It seems like this is a controversial topic and has been debated before: http://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/15372-simple-3-way-dimmer-switch-question. From what I can tell, there are those who are fixated on what Insteon can and cannot do; those who don't care either because they are a user with a specific need or because they are a developer with a mindset of always solving problems in software (or both) and then there is UDI, which needs to weigh the benefit vs. complexity, priority, etc. of every feature you plan on delivering in your product.

 

Clearly, your team has exceptional experience in Insteon and HA in general, but especially as you expand beyond Insteon with Polyglot etc., I would ask that long-term you consider some type of virtual object that isn't based on an Insteon scene - Who knows, in the future people may want to have Insteon loads and Hue bulbs managed together.

 

I know one major concern is that something you implement would break existing installations or cause unexpected behavior - to that end, I'm sure everyone looking for something like this wouldn't mind "opting in" with a button that is off by default or something. I would be very happy if for example, I could check an option on a scene and have a "Derived Group" based off of it as a sub-node. This derived group could be limited in only including certain device types within the existing scene and it would still probably meet most users needs.

 

Another option would be to have programs that can take an argument like a brightness level and act on it etc.

 

Much of this can be implemented outside of ISY and maybe would be best implemented in a Poly, but as you pointed out earlier even just the issuance of multiple direct Insteon commands can introduce latency that may cause the loads to respond asynchronously. While this is definitely true, I think in many situations it will work quite well. However, adding calls to other devices on the LAN or implementing it in the cloud (like in the Alexa app) is almost certain to deliver an asynchronous experience.

 

I know it seems simple to just create a couple of scenes at pre-determined levels, but if the goal is natural speech, it just doesn't work. Also, there are applications other than speech which would benefit from this as well.

 

Anyway, all of the recent developments are amazing - I really appreciate all of the work that has gone into it even if I just sound greedy for features.

 

Best,

 

-David

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi David,

 

Thanks so very much for the excellent feedback. We do have virtual devices in 5.0.x but this specific issue is not going to be fixed in 5.0.x either.

 

For now, and just for expediency, Benoit programmed the Dim function to dim 3 times (instead of one). We cannot do more since the Echo connector will timeout.

 

With kind regards,
Michel

[Jimbo.Automates]

I think David's suggestion for adding me flag on the scene to say it's a group is a great option. This flag could be set in the admin console or just in the portal.

 

Sent from my Pixel C using Tapatalk

[bmercier]

Looking at the logs, I see that some are trying to set an absolute level on a scene. That is not supported.

 

You can Dim, you can brighten, but you can't set to a specific percentage.

 

You cannot say:

Alexa, turn on <scene> to <percent>

Alexa, brighten <scene> to <percent>

Alexa, dim <scene> to <percent>

 

 

You can say:

Alexa, brighten <scene>

Alexa, dim <scene>

 

 

Furthermore, with Alexa, you can say:

Alexa, brighten <scene> by <percent>

Alexa, dim <scene> by <percent>

 

That will work for devices, it will increase the percentage by the percent you said.

However, in the case of scenes, it will brighten or dim, but it is fixed to 3 x DIM and 3 x BRT. (+/- 9%). The percentage spoken is ignored.

 

Benoit.

[Banichi]

Furthermore, with Alexa, you can say:

 

Alexa, brighten <scene> by <percent>

Alexa, dim <scene> by <percent>

 

That will work for devices, it will increase the percentage by the percent you said.

However, in the case of scenes, it will brighten or dim, but it is fixed to 3 x DIM and 3 x BRT. (+/- 9%). The percentage spoken is ignored.

 

Benoit.

So to clarify if I said "Alexa, dim [scene] by 20%" the scene would dim by 9%

 

And regardless of what percentage I speak over 9% it will only dim by that 9%. And if I speak less than 9% it will dim by that much?

 

 

- Nathan

 

Sent using tapatalk.

[bmercier]

So to clarify if I said "Alexa, dim [scene] by 20%" the scene would dim by 9%

 

And regardless of what percentage I speak over 9% it will only dim by that 9%. And if I speak less than 9% it will dim by that much?

 

 

- Nathan

 

Sent using tapatalk.

Exactly.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[stusviews]

Three dims or brightens is with one command delightfully effective. I do have situations where a precise brightness level is required, but that's not an everyday occurrence.

 

Thank again, Monsieur Mercier

[Scyto]

 

That's a pragmatic approach, my wife understand that because it is just the same as how she increases and decreases volume on the echo (by steps) - thanks!