johnmsch Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 Hope this is the correct forum for this question. Put in two new switches in a bathroom. Brand new 2466S for the fan and 2466D for the light. In my ISY994i I created the following program to turn the fan off 15 minutes after the light is turned off: Bathroom Fan - Auto Off - [iD 0018][Parent 0001]If Control 'Bathroom Light' is switched Off And Status 'Bathroom Fan' is On Then Wait 15 minutes Set 'Bathroom Fan' Off Else - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action') So far, so good. Program works as expected. Later, I just happened to turn the fan off while both the fan and light were on. The fan turned off, but the light also turned off, the light's LED blinked once, then the light came back on. The guys in the Smarthome Forum gave me some things to try, but its still doing the same thing, even after a factory reset. I turned on level 3 in the Event Viewer, then did the factory reset on each switch, then recreated the scenario (fan and light on, turn off fan, light goes off, LED blinks once, light comes back on). Below is the Event Viewer log. What the heck is going on here????? Thu 02/11/2016 07:42:05 PM : [ 3D 74 F2 1] Preparing Device 'Bathroom Fan' for RestoreThu 02/11/2016 07:42:05 PM : [ 3D 74 F2 1] Device 'Bathroom Fan' ready for Full RestoreThu 02/11/2016 07:42:05 PM : [All ] Writing 19 bytes to devicesThu 02/11/2016 07:42:13 PM : [3D 74 F2 1 ] Link 0 : 0FF8 [A2000F9D40FF1F01] Writing [A2000F9D40FF1F01]Thu 02/11/2016 07:42:14 PM : [PLM ] Group 0 : Writing Controller Link matching [3D 74 F2 1 ] Link 0 : 0FF8 [A2000F9D40FF1F01]Thu 02/11/2016 07:42:14 PM : [3D 74 F2 1 ] Link 1 : 0FF0 [E2010F9D40010001] Writing [E2010F9D40010001]Thu 02/11/2016 07:42:15 PM : [PLM ] Group 1 : Writing Responder Link matching [3D 74 F2 1 ] Link 1 : 0FF0 [E2010F9D40010001]Thu 02/11/2016 07:42:15 PM : [3D 74 F2 1 ] Link 2 : 0FE8 [0000000000000000] Writing [00..............]Thu 02/11/2016 07:42:16 PM : [3D 74 F2 1 ] Link 3 : 0FE0 : Writing High Water ByteThu 02/11/2016 07:42:24 PM : [3D 74 F2 1 ] Memory : Write dbAddr=0x0032 [FE] cmd1=0x2E cmd2=0x00Thu 02/11/2016 07:42:25 PM : [3D 74 F2 1 ] Memory : Write dbAddr=0x0021 [1C] cmd1=0x2E cmd2=0x00Thu 02/11/2016 07:42:36 PM : [ 33 60 82 1] Preparing Device 'Bathroom Light' for RestoreThu 02/11/2016 07:42:36 PM : [ 33 60 82 1] Device 'Bathroom Light' ready for Full RestoreThu 02/11/2016 07:42:36 PM : [All ] Writing 19 bytes to devicesThu 02/11/2016 07:42:45 PM : [33 60 82 1 ] Link 0 : 0FF8 [A2000F9D40FF1F01] Writing [A2000F9D40FF1F01]Thu 02/11/2016 07:42:45 PM : [PLM ] Group 0 : Writing Controller Link matching [33 60 82 1 ] Link 0 : 0FF8 [A2000F9D40FF1F01]Thu 02/11/2016 07:42:45 PM : [33 60 82 1 ] Link 1 : 0FF0 [E2010F9D40010001] Writing [E2010F9D40010001]Thu 02/11/2016 07:42:46 PM : [PLM ] Group 1 : Writing Responder Link matching [33 60 82 1 ] Link 1 : 0FF0 [E2010F9D40010001]Thu 02/11/2016 07:42:46 PM : [33 60 82 1 ] Link 2 : 0FE8 [0000000000000000] Writing [00..............]Thu 02/11/2016 07:42:47 PM : [33 60 82 1 ] Link 3 : 0FE0 : Writing High Water ByteThu 02/11/2016 07:42:50 PM : [33 60 82 1 ] Memory : Write dbAddr=0x0032 [FE] cmd1=0x2E cmd2=0x00Thu 02/11/2016 07:42:51 PM : [33 60 82 1 ] Memory : Write dbAddr=0x0021 [1C] cmd1=0x2E cmd2=0x00Thu 02/11/2016 07:47:00 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 33.60.82 00.00.01 CB 11 00 LTONRR (00)Thu 02/11/2016 07:47:00 PM : [std-Group ] 33.60.82-->Group=1, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2Thu 02/11/2016 07:47:00 PM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [33 60 82 1] [DON] [0] uom=0 prec=-1Thu 02/11/2016 07:47:00 PM : [ 33 60 82 1] DON 0Thu 02/11/2016 07:47:01 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 33.60.82 0F.9D.40 41 11 01 LTONRR (01)Thu 02/11/2016 07:47:01 PM : [std-Cleanup ] 33.60.82-->ISY/PLM Group=1, Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0Thu 02/11/2016 07:47:01 PM : [iNST-DUP ] Previous message ignored.Thu 02/11/2016 07:47:01 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 33.60.82 11.01.01 CB 06 00 (00)Thu 02/11/2016 07:47:01 PM : [std-Group ] 33.60.82-->11.01.01, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2Thu 02/11/2016 07:47:01 PM : [iNST-INFO ] Previous message ignored.Thu 02/11/2016 07:47:02 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 3D.74.F2 00.00.01 CB 11 00 LTONRR (00)Thu 02/11/2016 07:47:02 PM : [std-Group ] 3D.74.F2-->Group=1, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2Thu 02/11/2016 07:47:02 PM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [3D 74 F2 1] [DON] [0] uom=0 prec=-1Thu 02/11/2016 07:47:02 PM : [ 3D 74 F2 1] DON 0Thu 02/11/2016 07:47:02 PM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [3D 74 F2 1] [sT] [255] uom=0 prec=-1Thu 02/11/2016 07:47:02 PM : [ 3D 74 F2 1] ST 255Thu 02/11/2016 07:47:02 PM : [D2D-CMP 0018] STS [3D 74 F2 1] ST op=1 Event(val=255 uom=0 prec=-1) is Condition(val=255 uom=0 prec=-1) --> trueThu 02/11/2016 07:47:02 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 3D.74.F2 0F.9D.40 41 11 01 LTONRR (01)Thu 02/11/2016 07:47:02 PM : [std-Cleanup ] 3D.74.F2-->ISY/PLM Group=1, Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0Thu 02/11/2016 07:47:02 PM : [iNST-DUP ] Previous message ignored.Thu 02/11/2016 07:47:02 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 3D.74.F2 0F.9D.40 46 11 01 LTONRR (01)Thu 02/11/2016 07:47:02 PM : [std-Cleanup ] 3D.74.F2-->ISY/PLM Group=1, Max Hops=2, Hops Left=1Thu 02/11/2016 07:47:02 PM : [iNST-DUP ] Previous message ignored.Thu 02/11/2016 07:47:03 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 3D.74.F2 11.01.01 CB 06 00 (00)Thu 02/11/2016 07:47:03 PM : [std-Group ] 3D.74.F2-->11.01.01, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2Thu 02/11/2016 07:47:03 PM : [iNST-INFO ] Previous message ignored.Thu 02/11/2016 07:47:33 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 3D.74.F2 00.00.01 CB 13 00 LTOFFRR(00)Thu 02/11/2016 07:47:33 PM : [std-Group ] 3D.74.F2-->Group=1, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2Thu 02/11/2016 07:47:33 PM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [3D 74 F2 1] [DOF] [0] uom=0 prec=-1Thu 02/11/2016 07:47:33 PM : [ 3D 74 F2 1] DOF 0Thu 02/11/2016 07:47:33 PM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [3D 74 F2 1] [sT] [0] uom=0 prec=-1Thu 02/11/2016 07:47:33 PM : [ 3D 74 F2 1] ST 0Thu 02/11/2016 07:47:33 PM : [D2D-CMP 0018] STS [3D 74 F2 1] ST op=1 Event(val=0 uom=0 prec=-1) is Condition(val=255 uom=0 prec=-1) --> falseThu 02/11/2016 07:47:33 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 3D.74.F2 0F.9D.40 41 13 01 LTOFFRR(01)Thu 02/11/2016 07:47:33 PM : [std-Cleanup ] 3D.74.F2-->ISY/PLM Group=1, Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0Thu 02/11/2016 07:47:33 PM : [iNST-DUP ] Previous message ignored.Thu 02/11/2016 07:47:33 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 3D.74.F2 13.01.01 CB 06 00 (00)Thu 02/11/2016 07:47:33 PM : [std-Group ] 3D.74.F2-->13.01.01, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2Thu 02/11/2016 07:47:33 PM : [iNST-INFO ] Previous message ignored. Obviously, this isn't a show-stopper, but I'd just like to know why this happens. Thank You
Teken Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 Disable the program and report back how the lights and fan operate.
LeeG Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 The Event Trace shows no activity to/with Light (33.60.82) besides the messages that the ToggleLinc for Light was initially turned On. If the Light ToggleLinc is reacting to Fan being turned Off, the trace indicates interference from the Fan affecting the Light ToggleLinc. Assuming Teken's suggestion shows same result, could try different ToggleLinc for Light. What type of load is the Light (LED, CFL, etc). Running a different circuit (different breaker) to Light or Fan may resolve. Could try a SwitchLinc dimmer rather than a ToggleLinc dimmer. There are a number of options to try. Thu 02/11/2016 07:47:00 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 33.60.82 00.00.01 CB 11 00 LTONRR (00) - turn On Light, only activity Thu 02/11/2016 07:47:00 PM : [std-Group ] 33.60.82-->Group=1, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2Thu 02/11/2016 07:47:00 PM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [33 60 82 1] [DON] [0] uom=0 prec=-1Thu 02/11/2016 07:47:00 PM : [ 33 60 82 1] DON 0 EDIT: Although I do not use any Auto Off, I do turn Fan Off manually without interference to Bathroom lights. I use a KPL dimmer to control 5 incandescent lights.
johnmsch Posted February 12, 2016 Author Posted February 12, 2016 I deleted the program and still have the same result. The light switch is controlling two incandescent lights. I really appreciate the feedback, but at this point, I'll just restore the program and live with it. Given that it would be a very rare situation where I would manually turn off the fan while the light is on, its just not worth the effort to change the switch or do any rewiring. Thanks for the help!
Teken Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 I deleted the program and still have the same result. The light switch is controlling two incandescent lights. I really appreciate the feedback, but at this point, I'll just restore the program and live with it. Given that it would be a very rare situation where I would manually turn off the fan while the light is on, its just not worth the effort to change the switch or do any rewiring. Thanks for the help! Can I ask you to confirm whether there are other programs that are related in any way to the two Insteon devices? So while you do that part can you please confirm the following with a simple yes / no. 1. Turn on fan - does it turn on and off with out issue? 2. Turn on light - does it turn on and off with out issue? 3. Have both lights and fan on - turn off the fan what happens to the light / fan? 4. Have both lights and fan on - turn off the light what happens to the light / fan?
johnmsch Posted February 12, 2016 Author Posted February 12, 2016 No other programs even know of the existence of these two new switches, as they were just installed a few days ago. I even went through each existing program manually just to be sure. Also verified that these new switches don't have the same address as any existing ones, as rare as that would be. 1 - Yes 2 - Yes 3 - Fan goes off, immediately followed by the light going off, the light switches' LED blinks once, then light comes back on. This happens with or without the program active/existing 4 - Light goes off, fan stays on. With the program active, the fan will then go off after 15 minutes Thank You
Teken Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 No other programs even know of the existence of these two new switches, as they were just installed a few days ago. I even went through each existing program manually just to be sure. Also verified that these new switches don't have the same address as any existing ones, as rare as that would be. 1 - Yes 2 - Yes 3 - Fan goes off, immediately followed by the light going off, the light switches' LED blinks once, then light comes back on. This happens with or without the program active/existing 4 - Light goes off, fan stays on. With the program active, the fan will then go off after 15 minutes Thank You I suspect a wiring issue please confirm the wiring is all terminated securely with linesmen pliers and not simply via twisting of the wire nut / Marrette. If the above is found to be completely fine and operational more than likely the fan having shared the same power source is causing a voltage drop which is impacting the toggle linc. In case you're not aware this specific device has not been updated for what appears to be forever . . . You obviously selected this device because it fits into your decor etc. But understand its single band and not dual band - it also does not include any of the many hardware updates such as more robust PSU, lower energy consumption, and of course surge protection.
johnmsch Posted February 12, 2016 Author Posted February 12, 2016 Thanks again Teken, you may have hit on something here. I'm now thinking it could very well be the voltage drop you referred to. However, why its triggering that behavior in the 2466D is very curious. Having spent one summer during college as an electrician's apprentice (I was considering going into that line of work), I'm always very confident in my wiring skills. This is an older bathroom fan I've been meaning to replace. I would not at all be surprised that when I replace it, this problem just goes away. I wasn't aware that there was such a difference in the internal workings of the SwitchLincs vs ToggleLincs. Whenever I buy a new ToggleLinc, the Rev number on it is always higher than previous purchases, so it appeared to me they were being updated regularly. You're correct in that I continue to buy ToggleLincs simply because my home has the traditional switches. As I replace any other switches, or add any new ones, I'll start buying the SwitchLincs. Have a great weekend!
stusviews Posted February 13, 2016 Posted February 13, 2016 Disconnect the load wire connected to the fan. Toggle the 2466S. What's the resultant behavior?
BCreekDave Posted February 13, 2016 Posted February 13, 2016 When I have seen behavior like this where there is s motor load in close physical and electrical proximity to a Insteon switch a snubber on the motor usually takes care of it. I will go so far as to say it is a "best practice" to put snubbers on any motor load (fans, refrigerators, garbage disposers, etc) or fluorescents with magnetic ballasts. When the magnetic field collapses, the inrush to the switch can do flaky things. Here is a good one: http://www.amazon.com/RED-LION-SNUB0000-SURGE-PROTECTOR/dp/B00BUMY6LQ Sent from using Tapatalk
johnmsch Posted February 15, 2016 Author Posted February 15, 2016 Disconnect the load wire connected to the fan. Toggle the 2466S. What's the resultant behavior? That was a great idea to try. With the load to the fan disconnected, turning that fan switch off has no effect on the light switch, so it is the fan causing the problem. I went ahead and replaced that old noisy fan with one of the new, more powerful and MUCH quieter fans. Unfortunately, still having the same issue.
johnmsch Posted February 15, 2016 Author Posted February 15, 2016 When I have seen behavior like this where there is s motor load in close physical and electrical proximity to a Insteon switch a snubber on the motor usually takes care of it. I will go so far as to say it is a "best practice" to put snubbers on any motor load (fans, refrigerators, garbage disposers, etc) or fluorescents with magnetic ballasts. When the magnetic field collapses, the inrush to the switch can do flaky things. Here is a good one: http://www.amazon.com/RED-LION-SNUB0000-SURGE-PROTECTOR/dp/B00BUMY6LQ Sent from using Tapatalk Thanks for the tip! All these years working with electrical stuff, I've never heard of a "snubber". Very interesting! Been reading a lot about R-C snubbers and that looks like the way to go. I'd really like to run a new line from another breaker to that switch, but it would be an absolute nightmare. Way too much trouble for something that will rarely happen (switching the fan off while the light is on). One thing I'm just not clear on. When you say "a snubber on the motor", how exactly is this installed? The datasheets I've read are not very clear. I'm assuming I would cut into the black power wire at the fan and bridge the snubber there?
BCreekDave Posted February 15, 2016 Posted February 15, 2016 You install it across the white neutral and black hot wires Jumpered across them is another way to say it. It just sits there and basically "evens out" whatever surges are on the line when the field collapses. Basically, whatever transients are induced on the line within the snubbers design parameter it will absorb. In my experience, they work well. We would use them at work across relay contacts that controlled motors etc to prevent contact welding,burning,pitting. The 6 dollars is actually rather expensive compared to the components. The it a 0.1 microfarad capacitor and 47 ohm, 1/2 watt resistor wired in series. They are made by Okaya Electric under pn xeb0471 The data sheet is here: http://files.redlion.net/filedepot_download/213/3926 Good luck Dave Sent from using Tapatalk
johnmsch Posted February 16, 2016 Author Posted February 16, 2016 Thanks again Dave. Talked to an electrician friend and he said he would give me some Red Lion snubbers (http://www.redlion.net/accessory/snub-r-c-snubber-inductive-load-supressor). Its funny how much information you can find when you know what you're looking for! Apparently, this has been an issue with Insteon for years. Found these two threads on the Smarthome forum: Use R-C Snubber to Filter Inductive Load Spikes - http://forum.smarthome.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12857 SOLVED: Ceiling and bath fans create random events - http://forum.smarthome.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11875
BCreekDave Posted February 16, 2016 Posted February 16, 2016 Great. I hope it solves your problems. It probably will. The UDI forums usually have the solution to most issues somewhere. It is like most things in knowing how to ask the right question. That's just experience. Now you know how to answer this when you see it in the future. Sent from using Tapatalk
Teken Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 Snubber works perfectly! John, Thanks for following up with the forum members that the snubber worked in solving your issues.
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