Test Thermostats for Heat Mode - Issue

[stusviews]

I have one 2441TH that does not report its status correctly unless I query it, but the thermostat is in the correct mode. Have you viewed a thermostat after it sends a message about not being in heat mode?

[EddieRock]

I have one 2441TH that does not report its status correctly unless I query it, but the thermostat is in the correct mode. Have you viewed a thermostat after it sends a message about not being in heat mode?

That will be my next test.

See post 21

 

Sent from my Android device

[mwester]

still shaking my head, sadly.  Nothing on this thread so far has convinced me that ISY programs are a solution.

 

The OP has repeated - several times - that he does not wish his house to freeze (and provided a link to emphasize his point).  Yet, we all persist in ignoring the real problem -- which is that the high-falutin' fancy really-expensive whizz-bang electronic computer-ized thermostats FAIL!

 

If the brakes on my car have failed, I don't care to pursue a solution that involves an ISY, lots of fancy programming to repeatedly query the car's engine computer to see if the braking system reports that it's alive, etc, etc etc.  Instead, I'll have the car towed to the nearest service station, and have the brakes fixed before I'll rely upon that vehicle again.

 

Similarly, the solution for the OP's problem is to replace the existing FAILED thermostats with reliable ones.  If he desires, keep the fancy failing ones, and wire them into the system such that the new (low-tech) WORKING ones act as a failsafe to keep the house from freezing.  Then use the fancy expensive unreliable ones to "tweak" the temperatures (at least when they're working, that is).

 

What have I missed here?

[stusviews]

What have I missed here?

 

A backup to the backup thermostat

[larryllix]

I have a gas oven that depends on some high-tech electronics to control the gas valve. I have a tankless NG water heater that depends on more high-tech electronics than any Insteon thermostat I don't want to come home to a block of bits and pieces where my house was previously.

 

In reality this is not likely to happen and either is his house freezing, like the staged, exaggeration scenario  picture, he  linked to. If he lived above the Arctic Circle I could see worrying about it happening. Not likely where he is  unless he is absent for the whole winter without somebody performing the necessary insurance check every few days.

 

The OP has been given a good backup safeguards by yourself . His OP and main concern, here, is how to trust the ISY equipment he has. Even if he installed a mechanical thermostat his high-tech high-efficiency furnace ignitor could fail and his house get really cold. More high tech dependency? It isn't going away in your manual shifted car.

 

Should he now get a wood stove that he can depend on? Maybe the answer is to monitor the easy fail equipment with more equipment. Maybe he should purchase a HA box to send him notifications, if this happens so he can rush home or call a neighbour to investigate.

 

   ohhhh.wait.....!  He already has an ISY.  

 

However, it sounds like the Insteon thermostats are too junky to depend on, for me too. Four separate heating systems may help but restoring from a power outage on Off setting is unforgiveable. Need ISY notifications working. Power outages are hard to handle but the POCO knows your house isn't going to freeze 'cause you won't let it. Ask the St. Lawrence River survivors without electricity for 3-4 weeks. The military boys ate a lot of surplus steaks on the BBQ, though.

[KeviNH]

My Z-wave (Honeywell) thermostat always does exactly what I tell it to.   Sometimes I tell it to do the wrong thing, but that is on me.

 

It also comes back correctly from a power outage.

[EddieRock]

Are you getting reports only from the green room thermostat?

no, I'm getting them from 3 of 4 of the insteon tstats (going from memory). I'd like to verify that though... If that's the case, then it may be a hiccup on the 24vac transformer that runs all 3 tstats and valves. I do have a spare that I can swap out. 

 

but... let me verify that. 

 

Ed

[EddieRock]

A backup to the backup thermostat

A backup to the backup backup.

 

~Department of Redundancy Department

[EddieRock]

OP here... Sorry for the wall of text but it is what it is...

 

First, this is a "Support Forum" << (emphasize support here). We're not on Reddit so if you feel like bashing, go somewhere else please. We can have fun here like posting a worst case pic of someone's frozen house is ok (like I did). I may also post in comic san-serif if I like @paulbates... you made me laugh!

 

Please remember, The reason for my post was to get some ideas and/or support on what was going on to my thermostat/isy programs. I do not think I have faulty thermostats. They've been running fine for a few months. I may get some great ideas from you folks and tweak my ISY programs to fix it

 

We can individually decide the level of "Trust" we have in our thermostats, heating system, IOT (Internet of things), power sources (line power), cars (one engine, 4 tires, 1 battery, 1 human driving...) and so on. that's not the point for the forum post.

 

So, I'm in IT, I've managed datacenters on redundant power grids, with redundant semi sized UPS's, redundant internet connections, networks, virtual hosts and so on. Hundreds of millions of dollars worth of redundancy to ensure uptime. Guess what, there is still something somewhere that gets you eventually if you're not careful. But, there is usually, enough time to fix or get someone on it to recover quickly. If you simply plug it in and walk away with trust, you may make a mistake somewhere. 

 

So, I chose the ISY because of it's stability, user base, support and my research showed it was the best device to use for my requirements and budget.

 

I have two furnaces. They are for separate parts of the house and one is a bit flaky. The ISY and a simple thermostat (Insteon) could report back to me if there were problems. Yes, in the past, I've been out of town and my furnace has failed. It took over a day before it was down to the 30's F. I called a friend and it was fixed. I did monitor it another way but with the ISY and a smart tstat, I can get help quickly when the temp is not where it should be. Is this sufficient? For me, yes. I can respond and have someone there in enough time to address a furnace issue. Not really worried about the tstat failing. I have UPS's on the ISY, internet connection but not on the tstat or furnace. that's where the tests came in. 

 

So... with that said, my question on the forum has provided me some additional things I can try and test to get rid of the false alarms (if they are false) when querying the tstat if it's on heat or not. 

 

I've even put the following tests (one per tstat for diagnosis purposes):

 

If temp is <= 45 degrees, then tell me and set to heat @ 50F

If tstat is not on heat, then change it back to heat. This is nice because if someone hits the button to change it from heat to cool or off, it changes it back immediately and texts me. 

 

I really can't put redundancy into my line power or gas but if my neighborhood loses either of those, guess what, they will be out to fix it that day. That's what we pay for. If I lose my boiler or furnace, I want to know fairly soon so I can get it fixed before it's too late.

 

...and yes, I have insurance so if all else fails and I lose power, furnace, gas, tstat and I can't get there, I'll blow a pipe (or several), my house will flood and I'll call insurance. That's how it goes and why we have it.

 

...pushing soap box aside now

 

Anyone have any other thoughts on the program I posted to see if I should tweak it any more? I've added 15 second waits on one of the tstat and still get false alarms (if that is what it is).

 

Also, if we were worried about a single point of failure, it would be nice if the UDI could offer a master/slave option where we could buy two, and the master could copy it's config to the salve and in the event of a ISY failure, the system could gracefully fail over to the slave and run until the master was back or replaced. That's a common practice that I would be interested in.

 

~Department of Redundancy Department

[larryllix]

 

....

 

Anyone have any other thoughts on the program I posted to see if I should tweak it any more? I've added 15 second waits on one of the tstat and still get false alarms (if that is what it is).

 

Also, if we were worried about a single point of failure, it would be nice if the UDI could offer a master/slave option where we could buy two, and the master could copy it's config to the salve and in the event of a ISY failure, the system could gracefully fail over to the slave and run until the master was back or replaced. That's a common practice that I would be interested in.

 

~Department of Redundancy Department

 

The two ISY thing is on the slate for UDI in the future IIRC.

 

Something I thought while out blowing snow...

Maybe your thermostats are set to off initially as they boot up and then reset themselves to the last known mode (Heat). Maye a longer Wait before sampling the mode again may yield some different results.

 

Perhaps just a series of notifications based on mode changes to monitor what the stats do in the few say...10 minutes or so.

 

But I realise you have been in logical processes for years and probably have already thought of that idea.....maybe?

 

AS an aside. While I was away for months last year my stats were all set at 10 degrees C (50F) and that worked until I was on a cruise in the Carribe and my house temp started to rise back to normal living temps. I got notifications from ISY etc... but could not do anything about it.

 

After some long logical sleuthing I figured out these $3-4K worth of thermostats set themselves back to Home mode after a power failure. This would similar to what you are experiencing and a good lesson to us all to test out smart stats to see what they do after a power failure. How stupid can these companies be. We buy basic electronics for high prices to monitor and keep our houses at a set temperature. So much emphasis is put on smart, communication, schedules, phoney money saving schemes and yet they can't remember what they were doing after a power failure.....duh!

 

I am hearing about people with the Nests cannot block firmware upgrades and some fail locking the stat off. There's the poor bast... has all the bells and whistles and can't control the thing when actually needed. *SIGH*. mwester is right on about this.

 

Makes me laugh about the old trick I heard in a Fla hot tub one night, is the thermostat trick. You take an old mechanical thermostat and put a resistor in series with it across your Mountain summer resort phone line. Every couple of days, you call the phone and if it rings...heat is OK. If the line is busy, your thermostat has closed it's contacts, and you need to call a service person.

[EddieRock]

One of the first things I did was to pull the tstat door open to disable power to see how it reset. After a few minutes, it would come back to the state it was at. But... after 30+ minutes, it would fire back up in "Off" mode.

 

Why isn't there a backup setting to set to "Heat" and set to a low limit of 45 or 50 degrees F. And... why the hell didn't they put a simple backup battery option to have it sleep or to have it turn back on to heat mode so if you're away, it won't at least heat the house. then we won't have to turn to our old honeywell mechnacial mercury tstats in line with the "smart" tstats (if they are really smart...)

 

anyway, if I lose power and my tstat fires up in off mode, my ISY will notice right away and set it at 50. If not, and time passes, and the temp falls below 45F, then it will text me every hour of the status unitl I get someone on it if I'm away.

 

worse case, if on a cruise or hanging out on MARS for a while, I will have a human on earth (or Minnesota) help out

 

~Department of Redundancy Department

[larryllix]

One of the first things I did was to pull the tstat door open to disable power to see how it reset. After a few minutes, it would come back to the state it was at. But... after 30+ minutes, it would fire back up in "Off" mode.

 

Why isn't there a backup setting to set to "Heat" and set to a low limit of 45 or 50 degrees F. And... why the hell didn't they put a simple backup battery option to have it sleep or to have it turn back on to heat mode so if you're away, it won't at least heat the house. then we won't have to turn to our old honeywell mechnacial mercury tstats in line with the "smart" tstats (if they are really smart...)

 

anyway, if I lose power and my tstat fires up in off mode, my ISY will notice right away and set it at 50. If not, and time passes, and the temp falls below 45F, then it will text me every hour of the status unitl I get someone on it if I'm away.

 

worse case, if on a cruise or hanging out on MARS for a while, I will have a human on earth (or Minnesota) help out

 

~Department of Redundancy Department

Have you consider what happens if the power fails to both stat and ISY?

 

Stat wakes up and sets mode to Off.

ISY wakes up and no status changes from anything it is aware of = no need to change anything.  ...ooops. Ice Age.

[EddieRock]

Have you consider what happens if the power fails to both stat and ISY?

 

Stat wakes up and sets mode to Off.

ISY wakes up and no status changes from anything it is aware of = no need to change anything. ...ooops. Ice Age.

Good point. Isy is on a UPS with at least 75 minutes of power. Ill put that on the list to test but unlikely to occur unless my isp fails as well (Internet modem and switches on ups).

 

~Department of redundancy department

 

Sent from my Android device

[stusviews]

One of the first things I did was to pull the tstat door open to disable power to see how it reset. After a few minutes, it would come back to the state it was at. But... after 30+ minutes, it would fire back up in "Off" mode.

 

~Department of Redundancy Department

 

I tried your open door method. The thermostat returned to the last mode (cool) and remained in that mode.That was about an hour ago or so ago.

[EddieRock]

I tried your open door method. The thermostat returned to the last mode (cool) and remained in that mode.That was about an hour ago or so ago.

How long did you pull power? My last tstat I tested was off for about two hours and it came back in off mode. It was a new one. I'm wondering if there is a small rechargeable battery inside that needs to be charged up. I've done this test on each new unit hoping it would pass this test.

 

Also, the default state for the Insteon tstats is to boot up out of the box in the "Off" state. IMO, these should at least boot up in "Auto" mode with a low heat mode (like 60F) and a high AC mode (like 85F). That way, when they lose power, they come up with a safety net. 

 

...shoot, off topic again but it's a good worth wile fork I guess

 

I also don't think it's a good idea to open and close the tstats while they are on. I'd remove power from the source like turning off the furnace for a few hours and see the state the tstat comes back in the same state it was in prior...

 

Edit: Gave up typing on my phone...

 

~Department of Redundancy Department

[EddieRock]

Have you consider what happens if the power fails to both stat and ISY?

 

Stat wakes up and sets mode to Off.

ISY wakes up and no status changes from anything it is aware of = no need to change anything. ...ooops. Ice Age.

I reread your post... My ISY program isn't looking for a state change. It's looking for them to be specifically on heat mode and if not heat, then set heat.

 

Does that answer this scenario?

 

Sent from my Android device

[larryllix]

I reread your post... My ISY program isn't looking for a state change. It's looking for them to be specifically on heat mode and if not heat, then set heat.

 

Does that answer this scenario?

 

Sent from my Android device

There may be some of the problem too.

 

What causes your programs to check for a state change?

[smokegrub]

I have a second home that is located 325 miles from my primary residence. The thermostat is used solely for the purpose of monitoring the temperature since the heating units' settings are manually controlled. That makes my situation less critical than yours since one of my heating systems is fired by a continuous burning pilot light. The pilot light has failed in the past due to extremely high winds. That is very rare but it is why I monitor so closely. The location is rural and experiences frequent short-term power outages. I have the thermostat plugged into a Lamplinc. When the power is restored, the program detects that the Heat Mode is OFF and runs the following program which resets the Mode and the setpoint. I also have a program to alert me of the temperature measured by the thermostat at 0700, 1200, 1600 and 2100 hours. I can, of course, get the status of the thermostat at any time using MobiLinc. Finally, my emergency fail-safe is an Insteon camera that I can pan to see a thermometer.

 

This works for me but I now consider the thermostat the worst performing of all my Insteon products and I own a lot.

 

I now have Honeywell RTH9580 Wi-Fi Series thermostats in my primary residence. The only thing I am not 100% satisfied with is the fact that they are Cloud based. UDI has indicated that work is underway for users of the thermostats to do so with their ISY. I look forward to that because these thermostats are the "cat's meow".

 

Thermostat Setpoint Reset (Power Outage) Copy - [iD 001B][Parent 0001]

 

If

        Status  'Thermostat / Thermostat (Main)' is Mode Off

 

Then

        Wait  2 minutes 

        Set 'Thermostat / Thermostat (Main)' Mode Heat

        Set 'Thermostat / Thermostat (Main)' 60° (Heat Setpoint)

 

Else

   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

Automatically resets the thermostat mode to heat and the heat setpoint to that contained in this program following a power failure. The program should be disabled at the end of the heating season and enabled at its start. Otherwise, if the temperature falls below the setpoint and the program has not been disabled, a notification will be sent. If the setpoint is changed in the device tree, it must be changed in this program as well. Otherwise, the program will change the setpoint in the device tree to conform to the temperature specified in the program.

[KeviNH]

I went with the Zwave thermostat from Honeywell specifically because it is not cloud-tethered and because it does well at retaining mode and settings through a power outage.

 

Thermostat Setpoint Reset (Power Outage) Copy - [iD 001B][Parent 0001]

 

If

        Status  'Thermostat / Thermostat (Main)' is Mode Off

 

Then

        Wait  2 minutes 

        Set 'Thermostat / Thermostat (Main)' Mode Heat

        Set 'Thermostat / Thermostat (Main)' 60° (Heat Setpoint)

 

Else

   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

Automatically resets the thermostat mode to heat and the heat setpoint to that contained in this program following a power failure. The program should be disabled at the end of the heating season and enabled at its start. Otherwise, if the temperature falls below the setpoint and the program has not been disabled, a notification will be sent. If the setpoint is changed in the device tree, it must be changed in this program as well. Otherwise, the program will change the setpoint in the device tree to conform to the temperature specified in the program.

 

I have a slightly more complicated variant of that program that checks a state variable S.Enable_Heat and also uses the climate module.   I mostly use the climate module to ensure that AC is not turned on if the overnight low was cool enough that the condenser might freeze up.

 

Instead of enabling or disabling programs, I set S.Enable.Heat and S.Enable.Cool current and init values to 1 or 0.

[stusviews]

I use virtually the same program:

 

BR Cool - [iD 0080][Parent 0076]

If
        Control 'BR / Devices / BRR HVAC.1 Heat-Zone 2 Off / BRR HVAC.3 Cool-Zone 1 Off' is switched On
     Or Control 'BR / Devices / BRR HVAC.1 Heat-Zone 2 Off / BRR HVAC.3 Cool-Zone 1 Off' is not switched Off
 
Then
        Set 'BR / Devices / BR Thermostat Main' 77° (Cool Setpoint)
        Set 'BR / Devices / BR Thermostat Main' Mode Cool
        $iBR_Cool  = 1
 
Else
        $iBR_Cool  = 0

The variables are used for different programs.

[EddieRock]

There may be some of the problem too.

 

What causes your programs to check for a state change?

 

So, I'll lay it out below. The "If Status" programs check for state changes.

 

I have three types of programs and also a query program. I'll list them below and explain them best I can. I searched for a "Best Practice" for Insteon thermostats and ISY. I found this and followed it: http://homeautomationguru.com/programming-your-insteon-thermostat-with-the-isy-994i/

 

I have States, Events and Actions. If you read the page at the above link, he can explain it.

 

My programs for ONE thermostat are below and my main Query program. 

 

Main Query Program (this queries the tstats every 15 minutes. It was recommended that I do this. If it's a bad idea, let me know why. Please don't just say it's bad...)

If
	Time is 12:00AM
Then
	Repeat Every 15 minutes
		Set 'Bedroom Thermostat' Query
		Set 'Apt Thermostat' Query
		Set 'Green Room Thermostat' Query
		Set 'Kitchen Thermostat' Query
Else
	- No Action

Action: Bedroom Thermostat Too Cold Program (This is a fail backup program. If something happens to the furnace or boiler and the tstat can still talk to the ISY, I will be notified every hour.

If
	Status 'Bedroom Thermostat - Main' < 45 (Temperature)
Then
	Set 'Bedroom Thermostat - Main' 50 (Heat Setpoint)
	Repeat Every 1 hour
		Send Notification to 'Ed' content 'Bedroom Temp Too Cold'
Else
	-No Action

Action: Test Thermostat Heat Mode Off Bedrooms

If
	Status 'Bedroom Thermostat - Main' is not Mode Heat
Then
	Send Notification to 'Ed' content 'Heat Off Bedrooms'
	Set 'Bedroom Thermostat - Main' Mode Heat
Else
	-No Action 

Action: Test Thermostat Heat Mode On Bedrooms (this sends me a text when the tstat is changed to Heat. I get this text after the above "Heat Off" program fires. Basically, is a status check that the above program ran correctly.

If
	Status 'Bedroom Thermostat - Main' is Mode Heat
Then
	Send Notification to 'Ed' content 'Heat On Bedrooms'
Else
	-No Action

Thermostat Daily Notify of Temps (Gets the temp twice a day and ensure they are all on heat mode also, send me a text with the temps)

If
	Time is 8:00AM
	Or Time is 5:30 PM
Then
	Set 'Bedroom Thermostat - Main' Mode Heat
	Set 'Apt Thermostat - Main' Mode Heat
	Set 'Kitchen Thermostat - Main' Mode Heat
	Set 'Green Room Thermostat - Main' Mode Heat
	Send Notification to 'Ed' Content 'All Thermostat Temp Status'
Else
	-No Action

There are also a handful of "Event", "State", and "Action" programs that shouldn't make a difference so I won't list them. They just adjust the temp twice a day. The odd "Off" messages I receive do not correlate to the times of these programs.

 

So... With the above programs, I can keep an eye on my on my systems and have enough notification to get something fixed.

[stusviews]

You could probably run the query half-hour or once an hour which would reduce traffic and, possibly, a collision.

[larryllix]

So, I'll lay it out below. The "If Status" programs check for state changes.

....

 

 

Action: Test Thermostat Heat Mode Off Bedrooms

If
	Status 'Bedroom Thermostat - Main' is not Mode Heat
Then
	Send Notification to 'Ed' content 'Heat Off Bedrooms'
	Set 'Bedroom Thermostat - Main' Mode Heat
Else
	-No Action 

......

 

Back a few posts you stated

      "I reread your post... My ISY program isn't looking for a state change. It's looking for them to be specifically on heat

         mode and if not heat, then set heat."

...which contradicts the later statement you made "check for state changes". I just wanted make sure you understood how the triggers work, coming from a linear code life, and not familiar with event driven software, maybe? Drives some old programmers crazy at first.

 

This only works if ISY sees a change in status, comms are good and working, and doesn't wake up with stat already in that mode.

Something has to make your program run and depending on the trigger, you are monitoring for failure, to trigger the same signal you are monitoring may not be the best  thing. For your purposes, right now,  I understand this is only a watch and correct situation, software, and is working to identify some problem irritating you.

 

Does your thermostats have an Idle mode or waiting mode, based on a short cycle elimination setting?  My T7900 has a state called Lockout, a misnomer, but if the stat calls for heat and the cycle is too short it throws out a Lockout status instead of Heat until the timing allows a Heat call again. This can mess with Heat detection programs and I learned the hard way for a bit,

[stusviews]

Thermostat Heat On/Off

If
    Status 'Bedroom Thermostat - Main' is not Mode Heat
Then
    Send Notification to 'Ed' content 'Heat Off Bedrooms'
    Set 'Bedroom Thermostat - Main' Mode Heat
Else

    Send Notification to 'Ed' content 'Heat On Bedrooms'

[EddieRock]

Thermostat Heat On/Off

If

Status 'Bedroom Thermostat - Main' is not Mode Heat

Then

Send Notification to 'Ed' content 'Heat Off Bedrooms'

Set 'Bedroom Thermostat - Main' Mode Heat

Else

Send Notification to 'Ed' content 'Heat On Bedrooms'

I'll try this!

 

Thanks Stu

 

Ed

 

Sent from my Android device