Dimmers not updating status

[rrehart]

I have a weird problem. I have pretty extensive Insteon installation in my home (70+ devices), including SwitchLincs (Dimmer and Switch type), OutletLinc, FanLincs, etc...  In the admin console whenever a state changes for any of them, the interface updates with current state, as it should, with one exception:

 

If I change the state of a Dimmer (2477D) programatically (that is, via the admin console, portal, mobilinc, or program run), the interface updates appropriately. However, if I change the state at the switch, the ISY does not update unless I do a manual query of the switch.

 

Example: I set the FamilyRoom Dimmer to 40% via program. In the admin console, I can see that following the program run, the "Current State" is "40%". Then, when I turn the switch off at the wall (physically), the "Current State" remains at "40%" until I right click on the switch and select "Query"; at which time it changes to "Off".

 

This is only happening with the dimmers (all of them), not the switches or any other device type. The problem this creates is that I have other programs that depend on knowing the current state of a given dimmer to run or not to run. If that state is not accurate, it causes those programs to act inappropriately.

 

Any ideas on how to fix this?

 

Thanks.

[jerlands]

Couple things you can check..

 

First, UI and Firmware should always be the same (Help > About in admin console.)

Issue "Show Device Links Table" for device and compare (right click > Diagnostics.)  If link records don't match try Restore Device.

Open Event Viewer to Level 3, operate the device locally and observe Hop Left=(x) count. x= 3 or 2 indicates good comms and less = poor comms.

 

 

Jon...

[Techman]

What type of bulbs are connected to your dimmers? 

 

Does the problem occur for both the on/dim and off functions?

[rrehart]

@ Jon - UI/Firmware confirmed to match: 4.4.3 on both. Device Links compare = [identical].

 

When I operate the switch via the admin console, I see:

 

Fri 04/01/2016 11:22:24 : [std-Direct Ack] 22.3A.60-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

 

When I operate the switch locally, nothing comes up in the event viewer (no log whatsoever).

 

@Techman - Yes, both.

[jerlands]

When I operate the switch locally, nothing comes up in the event viewer (no log whatsoever).

 

This indicates no PLM link record.  Did you happen to replace PLM recently?  Try Restore Device and see if that helps.

 

 

Jon...

[rrehart]

Interesting. I did not replace it, but had to rebuild it.  I have done a restore on the dimmers themselves (to no avail), and, subsequent to that even tried a factory reset on one of them. Again, no joy. Should I try a restore on the PLM itself?

[jerlands]

I believe a restore device should re-write PLM links.  You might try deleting and relinking (remove from all scenes and folders.) 

During your rebuild was the system down or did you use a different PLM?

 

 

Jon...

[jerlands]

With "Show Device Links Table" you should see PLM address in links.

 

 

Jon...

[rrehart]

Jon - The system was down when the PLM was down. That being said, I just removed all of the dimmers from all scenes, folders, and deleted them (in that order), then re-discovered each dimmer and re-added to folder/scenes as appropriate. That fixed the issue. Now the event viewer sees when a device is controlled locally.

 

Weird that would happen only to the dimmers and nothing else. I'll chock it up to ghosts in the machine! 

 

Thanks for the help!

 

-Ross

[jerlands]

Glad to hear it's working but I don't see why only dimmers would be affected. 

If the system was down and no other modem was used then restore modem wasn't needed but shouldn't hurt if it were.

Not certain what the cause of the problem was here?

 

 

Jon...

[jerlands]

Also, I'm pretty certain a "Restore Device" should have restored PLM links if ISY's links were correct.

 

 

Jon...

[MWareman]

Interesting. I did not replace it, but had to rebuild it. I have done a restore on the dimmers themselves (to no avail), and, subsequent to that even tried a factory reset on one of them. Again, no joy. Should I try a restore on the PLM itself?

Did you by chance do a 'Delete PLM' as part of your rebuilding?

 

(If not, don't! - if you did - it explains your symptoms)

Edited April 1, 2016 by MWareman

[rrehart]

Did you by chance do a 'Delete PLM' as part of your rebuilding?

 

(If not, don't! - if you did - it explains your symptoms)

 

No, I didn't. I just replaced the capacitors to get it back in action. Nothing programatically was done.

[MWareman]

In that case, yes. Do a 'Restore PLM'. It could be that the PLM lost its link records, meaning it will ignore incoming status updates.

 

The ISY will re-write the link records that it knows should be there.

 

The reason for the prior question - if you ran a 'Delete' - then the ISY will remove all link records across all devices - meaning the only thing you can do is a restore from before - or manually re-link all devices.

Edited April 1, 2016 by MWareman

[Krusty66]

I have discovered that if I use a mini remote to change the status of a device (dimmers primarily), the dimmer will turn on, off, or desired dim level, but the status will not be reflected in the UD Administrative Console.  It must be a glitch in the system.  I can turn on/off the units manually and its reflected in the Admin Console immediately.  I can turn them on/off thru the Admin Console itself and of course, it is reflected immediately in the Admin Console.  I can also write programs to turn them on/off and again, its reflected immediately in the Admin Console.  But use a mini remote - and the Admin Console ignores the true status of the device.  I've tested it every way I can and with numerous devices.  I've reset the devices, you name it.  The only way to get the Admin to recognize the new status of the device is to manually query that device.

[larryllix]

_{I have discovered that if I use a mini remote to change the status of a device (dimmers primarily), the dimmer will turn on, off, or desired dim level, but the status will not be reflected in the UD Administrative Console.  It must be a glitch in the system.  I can turn on/off the units manually and its reflected in the Admin Console immediately.  I can turn them on/off thru the Admin Console itself and of course, it is reflected immediately in the Admin Console.  I can also write programs to turn them on/off and again, its reflected immediately in the Admin Console.  But use a mini remote - and the Admin Console ignores the true status of the device.  I've tested it every way I can and with numerous devices.  I've reset the devices, you name it.  The only way to get the Admin to recognize the new status of the device is to manually query that device.}

 

This can happen with Windows after some time the admin console goes to sleep. I usually find my icons at the top of the Admin Console greyed out and some statuses do not update.

 

Did you try a fresh admin console run?

[Techman]

I have discovered that if I use a mini remote to change the status of a device (dimmers primarily), the dimmer will turn on, off, or desired dim level, but the status will not be reflected in the UD Administrative Console.  It must be a glitch in the system.  I can turn on/off the units manually and its reflected in the Admin Console immediately.  I can turn them on/off thru the Admin Console itself and of course, it is reflected immediately in the Admin Console.  I can also write programs to turn them on/off and again, its reflected immediately in the Admin Console.  But use a mini remote - and the Admin Console ignores the true status of the device.  I've tested it every way I can and with numerous devices.  I've reset the devices, you name it.  The only way to get the Admin to recognize the new status of the device is to manually query that device.

 

Put the remote and the Dimmer switch into a scene, both as controllers, the correct status will then be reflected on both the dimmer and in the ISY.

 

Was the remote linked using the ISY linking?, if not it should be.

[Krusty66]

Its not Windows or anything to do with refresh.  It just plain does not react to anything that happens as a result of using a remote.  I just shut down my Console session and restarted.  It is still confused about the status of the lights in question - even after the restart.  It thinks some are on that are actually off and vice versa.  Again, only lights that were switched on or off using the mini remote.  I can also prove that it doesn't know that status because I've written code to see if it will react correctly.  It won't.  It treats the status (for purposes of the program or code) as whatever it shows in the console.  It does not know the real status of the devices.  That's how I discovered the problem in the first place.

[Krusty66]

In response to Techman, the remote is linked and does indeed show the current status of it's buttons in the Admin Console.  It's crazy - it shows the buttons turning on and off, but it won't show the lights (dimmer units) turning on and off.

 

As to putting everything into a scene, I'm not sure I understand that.  I understand having lights in a scene and making the scene control what they do.  But I don't understand how a remote would be part of a scene.

[Techman]

In response to Techman, the remote is linked and does indeed show the current status of it's buttons in the Admin Console.  It's crazy - it shows the buttons turning on and off, but it won't show the lights (dimmer units) turning on and off.

 

As to putting everything into a scene, I'm not sure I understand that.  I understand having lights in a scene and making the scene control what they do.  But I don't understand how a remote would be part of a scene.

 

How do you currently have the remote controlling the dimmer? It has to be either a scene or a program.

[Krusty66]

The remote is manually connected to the dimmer via the brief instructions in the manual for the dimmer and the remote.  That is, you click a button on the dimmer, then click a button on the remote, then hold down the other button on the remote, then push the set button on the dimmer, etc.  Whatever that process is.  But it is all done outside of the Admin console.

[stusviews]

Nothing should be done outside the Admin Console because the ISY is unaware of any scenes that it did not create. Create a scene with the both the button as a controller  and the dimmer as a responder if the dimmer doesn't control anything else of the dimmer as a responder if the dimmer does control something else.

[Krusty66]

I guess I'm confused because I don't really use scenes for anything.  So I'm not sure why I need them for this.  I control everything with programs.  Simple example - I program LightA to come on every night at 7pm and turn off at 11pm.  I only use the remote if I want the light to turn on or off at different times, or if I want to change the dim level.  I know how scenes work and are constructed, but I don't need them for anything.  And I'm not clear on how I would use them in my simple example.  I know I could set up a scene where LightA is on, and another scene where LightA is off, and I could make the remote the mechanism for toggling between those two scenes.  But then I lose my ability to use the remote as a dimmer.  The whole use of scenes seems like overkill for what I'm doing.  If the Console can recognize that the remote has been toggled on or off, why can't it recognize that the dimmer unit itself has also been toggled?  Again, I can query and get the right answer, but the Console won't query on its own apparently.

[paulbates]

In Insteon, when 2 or more devices are controlling each other, a scene has been created. You are actually creating and using scenes when you use the instructions that come in the box with the devices to link them. That manual process creates references between of participants you linked to use as part of the scene. This is how insteon knows how to coordinate activity between multiple devices.

 

However, the ISY was not part of that manual link creation process using the out of the box instructions, and does not know to respond / acknowledge the new scene you created via manual linking. To say it another way, its working as designed.

 

Your choices are:

1. Continue to manually create scenes with the individual devices using the out of the box instructions that came with the devices and have the ISY continue to not know about it and manually query to discover state.
   ...or..
2. Remove the manually created scenes and create them with the ISY. The switches will respond to the remote just like they do now. The only difference is that the ISY will be a participant in the scene and aware of the changes, which is what you want.

It takes just moments to create the scene with the ISY. I find it easier to use the ISY than manually link.

Edited May 24, 2016 by paulbates

[stusviews]

All seven of my 2440s use scenes because scenes are quicker, nearly instantaneous, whereas programs respond slower, sometimes a second or more. Dimming and brightening are not lost at all. You need only one scene per button. Add the button and light A to the scene as controllers. That's it. You can use the same button for both on and off and brighten and dim (or you could use the bright and dim buttons).