switzch Posted May 15, 2016 Posted May 15, 2016 Ok so I am a bit over my head here. I have an small (wireless doorbell) speaker that I want to connect to an IO Link which is a product I am new with. From what I can tell the IOlinc accepts one input using a Ground and Sense inputs (up to 5v i read). I measured the voltage when the chime on the speaker (in the wireless doorbell receiver) plays and its about 3V. So anyone familiar with the IO link, I am not great with electronics and i'm confused how i would attach the speaker to the IO Link ground and sense inputs. Does the IO link accept both AC and DC Inputs up to 5v? If it accepts AC would I just connect the speaker positive (+) to the io link sense input, and the negative (-) to the io link ground? Thanks for your help.
Broyd Posted May 15, 2016 Posted May 15, 2016 I don't know of anyone trying to supply a voltage to the sense input. Normally the sense input is connected to ground through a contact closure or an optical isolator such as is used in the insteon doorbell/ telephone ring kit. I suspect the sense terminal will have a voltage on it with respect to the ground terminal and when the sense terminal is connected to ground through a contact closure, a few milliamps will flow allowing the closure to be detected.
Brian H Posted May 15, 2016 Posted May 15, 2016 (edited) The Sensor Input on a I/OLinc has about a 5 volt sensing voltage. That is pulled to ground with a dry closure type input. It is not designed to be driven by a external voltage AC or DC. When the doorbell is not sounding. It may actually load the Sensor Input low enough to turn it ON when not sounding. As the speaker probably has a fairly low resistance. In my tests anything lower than 800 Ohms was enough to trip the sensor On. Finding a different way to trigger the Sensor Input on an I/OLinc. Will be needed. Edited May 16, 2016 by Brian H
Brian H Posted May 16, 2016 Posted May 16, 2016 (edited) Before connecting any external wiring to the speaker wires.You should do a safety check to test for a possible shock hazard.Using your meter. Check each speaker wire in the doorbell receiver to a good safety ground. For AC or DC voltages between the speaker wires and safety ground.If the Doorbell receiver has unpolarized AC input prongs.Reverse the doorbell receiver in the wall outlet and check the speaker wires again to safety ground.There is a chance the doorbell receiver may use a power line derived power supply and its internalpower supply may be referenced to the AC power line input. Edited May 16, 2016 by Brian H
larryllix Posted May 16, 2016 Posted May 16, 2016 (edited) The sensing current from the IOLinc will pull the speaker cone one way, permanently, and may eventually damage the speaker or the output transformer, if it has one. I doubt this will work into a IOLinc. It may not take the negative voltage thrown at it. Edited May 16, 2016 by larryllix
switzch Posted May 16, 2016 Author Posted May 16, 2016 Sensor Input on a I/OLinc has about a 5 volt sensing voltage. That is pulled to ground with a dry closure type input. It is not designed to be driven by a external voltage AC or DC. When the doorbell is not sounding. It may actually load the Sensor Input low enough to turn it ON when not sounding. As the speaker probably has a fairly low resistance. In my tests anything lower than 800 Ohms was enough to trip the sensor On. Finding a different way to trigger the Sensor Input on an I/OLinc. Will be needed. Thanks for your help. I was googling and found this link http://www.instructables.com/id/Hack-a-wireless-doorbell-into-a-wireless-alarm-swi/step2/Prepping-the-Receiver/ It looks like he adds a 2n2222 transistor to the speaker outputs to turn the variable voltage pulse from the speaker outputs into a basic on/off switch. Would this work with the iolinc? I guess I dont understand what a 'dry closure' would be. Any help is appreciated. I cannot believe there isnt a wireless doorbell that triggers something like this - i cant be the only one! The sensing current from the IOLinc will pull the speaker cone one way, permanently, and may eventually damage the speaker or the output transformer, if it has one. Thing is, i dont really care about the speaker on the wireless doorbell reciever. I simply need to use it to trigger an insteon event. I will likely use the IOlinc relay outputs to trigger another chime somewhere else once (hopefully) i get this working.
Broyd Posted May 16, 2016 Posted May 16, 2016 A dry closure is just a simple on/off switch such as a wired unlighted doorbell push button (momentary) or a simple wall switch (continuous). Is your existing doorbell chime unit battery operated? If so, the 2n2222 setup would very likely work. If the chime unit is AC powered, then you will likely have power isolation problems that would occur between the AC chime unit and the IOLinc. Isolation problems could destroy both units. I expect you will use the ISY to ring other chimes by programming, not the IOLinc relay.
Brian H Posted May 17, 2016 Posted May 17, 2016 The 2N2222 may work. Make sure the Collector is the one on the Sensor Input and the Emitter on the Ground. If your receiver is AC powered and you find AC back to safety ground. Maybe we can find you a optocoupler that may work. Smarthome use to make a low voltage probe for the older X10 version of a I/O Linc but it had to be slightly modified to work on the Insteon version. As the nice 1/8" stereo type connector on the end was wired incorrectly for the Insteon I/O Linc.
switzch Posted May 17, 2016 Author Posted May 17, 2016 A dry closure is just a simple on/off switch such as a wired unlighted doorbell push button (momentary) or a simple wall switch (continuous). Is your existing doorbell chime unit battery operated? If so, the 2n2222 setup would very likely work. If the chime unit is AC powered, then you will likely have power isolation problems that would occur between the AC chime unit and the IOLinc. Isolation problems could destroy both units. I expect you will use the ISY to ring other chimes by programming, not the IOLinc relay. Thanks! The receiver is plugged into the wall with a regular plug - no ground though :/ How can I test if there will be power isolation issues? I have no idea what that means.. I measured the voltage running across the speaker and it peaks at roughly 3V when the button is pressed (one tone for about 1 second) otherwise no voltage. What I am also struggling with is the output on the 2n2222 puts out a positive and negative and the iolinc needs a positive and ground. Is the ground and negative the same here?
Brian H Posted May 17, 2016 Posted May 17, 2016 I can see why you are confused. It looks like the 2N2222 is not wired the way I expected. Maybe because the original modification is for a security alarm zone. The external output should not be using the Base of the transistor. May have to look this over and see what may work. In case you missed it in my earlier post. Measure with your meter from each speaker lead to a good safety ground for any AC or DC voltages. If the receiver does not have a polarized AC input plug and can be plugged in either direction. Reverse it in the outlet and measure it again.
switzch Posted May 17, 2016 Author Posted May 17, 2016 The 2N2222 may work. Make sure the Collector is the one on the Sensor Input and the Emitter on the Ground. Like this right? Where the ground is the negative of the speaker contact? If your receiver is AC powered and you find AC back to safety ground. Maybe we can find you a optocoupler that may work. It is... maybe it would be easier to get a battery powered one since they are likely $20? But it would be nice to have it powered. How do I test if this is an issue? The unit only plugs in one way (unpolarized). I saw your post above in terms of measuring against the saftey ground. when i test both the postive and negative speaker leads against a true ground (in powerbar) there is a consistant 5v. Here is what I am dealing with
mwester Posted May 17, 2016 Posted May 17, 2016 I think the statement on the bottom of that blue object in the background is significant: CAUTION! From the components visible on the circuit board, I would not recommend connecting any part of that circuit to an IOLinc, or even exending any circuit inside that device to the outside via a wire of any sort. Particularly if you, as you state several times, are not completely sure about what you're doing. The risk is that you will inadvertently bring the live house power (at 120 Volts) out of the device on that wire. Sure, you're measuring only 3 Volts across the speaker -- but that might very well be 117 Volts on one terminal and 120 Volts on the other -- the difference is 3 volts. You might even be able to get it to work with an IOLinc without any sparks or smoke -- but if you have that sort of voltage on one of the wires going to the IOLinc from that device, and your cat or dog happens to touch it, or chew it, well, that would be bad. Or if something sparks, and the spark falls onto your wooden floor, or your wooden baseboard, or your flammable carpet or rug... And even if you measure carefully to ground -- well, reversing the plug on the device might change everything. Don't do it.
larryllix Posted May 17, 2016 Posted May 17, 2016 (edited) Like this right? Where the ground is the negative of the speaker contact? No.The IoLinc should go across emitter and collector. The speaker should go across from emitter to base but the base needs a resistor in series with it or you'll burn out the transistor base emitter junction. The emitter should be common. Transistors are current devices and need to have a resistor to limit the current. say about 1K. YMMV Edited May 17, 2016 by larryllix
Brian H Posted May 17, 2016 Posted May 17, 2016 As pointed out. The schematic is incorrect. Your photo shows it is also a AC power line derived supply and is not safe to use external wiring. The 5 volts to ground is also indicating a power supply referenced back to the Line or Neutral. Depending on the exact circuit.
larryllix Posted May 18, 2016 Posted May 18, 2016 (edited) As pointed out. The schematic is incorrect. Your photo shows it is also a AC power line derived supply and is not safe to use external wiring. The 5 volts to ground is also indicating a power supply referenced back to the Line or Neutral. Depending on the exact circuit. Let me repeat that! I just looked at the photo. Edited May 18, 2016 by larryllix
KeviNH Posted May 18, 2016 Posted May 18, 2016 (edited) Sounds like a good application for an opto-isolator. Commercially potted optoisolators usually provide multi-kilovolt isolation from mains current.You could buy one, or build a simple circuit in 5 minutes with white LED and photoresistor or phototransistor. See here: http://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/9381-laundry-monitoring/?p=74800 Edited May 18, 2016 by KeviNH
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