sfhutchi Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 Started having trouble with communication to my devices and programs stopped functioning. PLM seemed to be the culprit because the LED on the PLM wouldn't even light up. Received, installed, and restored new PLM. I still have several devices that don't communicate to the PLM... and ISY doesn't seem to receive any communication from my devices, programs don't function, etc. Programs will notice a state change on a device only if I trigger it through the ISY console. I 'tried' to reset the PLM (unplug, hold down reset button, plug back in while still holding reset). Then restart everything and restore again. No improvement. Possibly PLM is not resetting? Could it be a bad PLM out of the box? Anything else that should be checked? Any ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techman Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 Did you exactly follow the "Replace PLM" steps outlined in the UDI Wiki? If so then do a "restore device" on the devices that are problematic. Are any of your devices battery operated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulbates Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 Started having trouble with communication to my devices and programs stopped functioning. PLM seemed to be the culprit because the LED on the PLM wouldn't even light up. Received, installed, and restored new PLM. I still have several devices that don't communicate to the PLM... and ISY doesn't seem to receive any communication from my devices, programs don't function, etc. Programs will notice a state change on a device only if I trigger it through the ISY console. I 'tried' to reset the PLM (unplug, hold down reset button, plug back in while still holding reset). Then restart everything and restore again. No improvement. Possibly PLM is not resetting? Could it be a bad PLM out of the box? Anything else that should be checked? Any ideas? Here is the link to the directions that Techman was referring to. Its more than swapping the device. Your insteon network's device information needs to be downloaded in the PLM, and all insteon devices need to be reprogrammed with the new PLMs address. Wireless only devices like motion,leak and door sensors, and remotes, need to be put into programming mode and updated one at a time. Use the Replace PLM directions. Also its important to not use the Delete PLM procedure. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kck Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 In addition to all this I have found that some devices just seem to get out of sync in ways that device restore doesn't help. The typical symptom is a switch that is part of a scene, shows as such on the ISY console, but doesn't seem to work quite right. Either it doesn't activate the scene or it does but if the ISY needs to see that activation (like there is a program based off it) that doesn't happen. What fixes this is to remove the problem device from the scene and then just re-add it to the scene. Given that the ISY clearly "knows" how that device should be configured I can never understand why no amount of resetting or restoring will fix this case but all I can tell you is that the easiest thing is to just to the delete/re-add and get on with life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techman Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 In addition to all this I have found that some devices just seem to get out of sync in ways that device restore doesn't help. The typical symptom is a switch that is part of a scene, shows as such on the ISY console, but doesn't seem to work quite right. Either it doesn't activate the scene or it does but if the ISY needs to see that activation (like there is a program based off it) that doesn't happen. What fixes this is to remove the problem device from the scene and then just re-add it to the scene. Given that the ISY clearly "knows" how that device should be configured I can never understand why no amount of resetting or restoring will fix this case but all I can tell you is that the easiest thing is to just to the delete/re-add and get on with life. It sounds like you have may a communications issue or a corrupt link table. The description of your problem is somewhat vague so it's difficult to offer suggestions. Next time you have a problem with a device do a diagnostics to compare the link tables in the ISY with those stored in the PLM. That should help narrow down the problems and help get the monkey off your back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfhutchi Posted June 13, 2016 Author Share Posted June 13, 2016 I have gone through the ISY Replace PLM procedure (as documented) about 3 times. Each time, I tried to reset the PLM to factory condition. Same problems every time. I'll try to attempt to compare the link tables as suggested. I am not familiar with this, but I assume that it isn't too difficult. I attempted to 're-add' a device to the network that the ISY was reporting problems with... but the ISY simply says that this device is already connected. I don't want to delete the device completely because I will have to re-create all related scenes and programs. Since this is not one device, I would lose a massive amount of work. Also, the devices that the ISY seems to communicate to are a problem also. The ISY doesn't recognize any of their state changes, therefore NONE of my program triggers are recognized by the ISY. I know that the replace instructions say to be sure not to replace with a 'powered up' ISY. In my haste to get my system up and running, I likely did this when I first received the PLM. I then attempted to reset the PLM and start over. Did I create other problems that must be reset? Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outlander Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 It sounds like you have may a communications issue or a corrupt link table. The description of your problem is somewhat vague so it's difficult to offer suggestions. Next time you have a problem with a device do a diagnostics to compare the link tables in the ISY with those stored in the PLM. That should help narrow down the problems and help get the monkey off your back I just had a similar issue where it appeared there was an unknown program or scene controlling one of my dimmers whenever I used a nearby switch. Just went through device diagnostics and did a compare and noticed mismatches. After restoring these along with quite a few others I found, everything is now back to normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techman Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 I have gone through the ISY Replace PLM procedure (as documented) about 3 times. Each time, I tried to reset the PLM to factory condition. Same problems every time. I'll try to attempt to compare the link tables as suggested. I am not familiar with this, but I assume that it isn't too difficult. I attempted to 're-add' a device to the network that the ISY was reporting problems with... but the ISY simply says that this device is already connected. I don't want to delete the device completely because I will have to re-create all related scenes and programs. Since this is not one device, I would lose a massive amount of work. Also, the devices that the ISY seems to communicate to are a problem also. The ISY doesn't recognize any of their state changes, therefore NONE of my program triggers are recognized by the ISY. I know that the replace instructions say to be sure not to replace with a 'powered up' ISY. In my haste to get my system up and running, I likely did this when I first received the PLM. I then attempted to reset the PLM and start over. Did I create other problems that must be reset? Steve You need to right click on the device and then click on "restore device". This will rewrite the link tables with the data currently stored in the ISY without deleting or changing the device. You should never do a delete modem when replacing a PLM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfhutchi Posted June 13, 2016 Author Share Posted June 13, 2016 You need to right click on the device and then click on "restore device". This will rewrite the link tables with the data currently stored in the ISY without deleting or changing the device. You should never do a delete modem when replacing a PLM. I have attempted to individually restore some devices, but it hasn't helped so far. I have not attempted a delete modem operation at this point. I'll compare the link tables tonight to see if I can get any better ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kck Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 I actually have done the table compares and there are cases where they are different any won't resolve with a restore. (By the way, an incorrect PLM restore is a great example of a similar issue. You will get the PLM missing lots of links even though the ISY thinks they should be there - the linkages are there in the HI - and there isn't any way to get them written other than retreating to a previous backup or manually deleting and adding devices.) The only solution I have found in these cases is the scene remove/add. It's weird, granted, but I have seen it. I really wish that UDI would add a verify network command that would traverse all devices and compare all tables to what they have internally and report the differences. It would take a while to run but it would be a lot easier than individually going to devices that you notice seem to be not working right - especially since you may not notice this for quite a while if they are seldom used devices. Hurts the WAF when I get an annoyed complaint about some switch or device not working right and I had no way of finding that out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 sfhutchi Please, NEVER delete the PLM. That action will remove all references to the PLM from all devices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techman Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 I actually have done the table compares and there are cases where they are different any won't resolve with a restore. If the link tables don't match and a restore device doesn't correct the mismatch then you either have a communications issue i.e. noise on the powerline or a weak Insteon signal or a defective device(s). My first suggestion would be to focus on communications. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kck Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 Techman - Trust me - comms are fine. Not a novice at all this stuff and what I am seeing is real. I have gotten all the issues I know of fixed by the scene remove/add or for PLM issues with device removal/re-add (which further validates that comms are fine). There are some corner case flakiness that you can encounter with the ISY. I'm not really complaining as I like the product overall. But there are places (like in any product) where things can go off the rails a bit. There seem to be multiple notions of the "base" data within the ISY internals. Proof of that is that you can screw up a PLM restore by trying a restore on a dying PLM and the only fix is to retreat to a previous backup when you get the new PLM. Note that if you don't you will see ALL the correct information in the HI of the ISY. Given that the ISY can tell you correctly exactly what your system (the switches in the house) should be doing and how they should be connected, it should be able to recreate that situation by rewriting all the tables in the house. But it can't for some reason. That implies that there are 2 forms of the database - one that you see and one that in some way is tightly connected to the PLM. These issues that folks see on occasion all seem related to this duality. Simple bottom line: if I can go into the ISY HI and see the correct addresses for every device including the PLM and the correct relationships among those devices in terms of scenes, then the ISY should be able to recreate that in reality but there are cases where it cannot. I've had this discussion with Michel and he assures me I am wrong. But as a long time software guy who is pretty adept at reverse engineering bug cases I don't think I am. So I just accept this is the way things are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techman Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 Techman - Trust me - comms are fine. Not a novice at all this stuff and what I am seeing is real. I have gotten all the issues I know of fixed by the scene remove/add or for PLM issues with device removal/re-add (which further validates that comms are fine). the scenes reside in the PLM not in the ISY so it sounds like you have an issue with the PLM. The ISY just sends an on/off message to the scene in the PLM. The devices within a scene can interact with each other even if the ISY is offline. Being that you're able to resolve a problem by deleting and rebuilding the scene reinforces my pervious sentence. What exactly happens when you try to turn on a scene? What devices are in the scene and what type of load are they controlling? You could also have an intermittent communications issue If a PLM restore goes bad there's no need to restore a backup unless you deleted the PLM from the ISY, you can just initiate another restore PLM What's the date code, hardware and firmware version on the PLM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kck Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 My system is all fixed now so can't get all the info you want. Issue is that you can get into trouble if you do any sort of restore of the PLM while it is failing. Even if you then replace the PLM following the correct procedure you will not necessarily get a correct restore into the new PLM. At that point you need to go back to a previous backup and do the PLM restore from there. I understand where the scenes live for operational purposes. That's not the problem that I have seen. The problem is that even if the ISY "knows" the correct setup of scenes, it cannot necessarily load those into a new PLM correctly (hence the need to retreat to an earlier backup). You can get into situations where everything that the ISY HI tells you looks fine but no amount of restoring of a new PLM per procedure, nor of devices, will necessarily get them loaded correctly. They ISY should be able to avoid this and fully reconstruct all the devices from its system view if requested. And really, really it wasn't a comms problem despite what you think. The situation was very clear. There were devices that were part of a scene that could no longer cause the scene to turn on. E.g., a dimmer toggle that was part of a 4 way scene where the load was controlled at another dimmer that no longer turned the scene on/off. Restores of those devices did not fix the problem. The only fix was to remove the device from the scene and add it back. In the most recent case this was on a brand new PLM (purchased to replace a dead one that had remarkably lasted a year past the expected 2 years and a day lifetime. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfhutchi Posted June 14, 2016 Author Share Posted June 14, 2016 Is there a tutorial somewhere on how to compare the link tables? Under diagnostics it is not clear how to see the information sorted in a similar manner. Can I get an output of all devices for both the PLM and the ISY... and then use something like Excel to compare? This is starting to look like a huge engineering project. Make no sense on the surface. Why won't restoring my PLM and individually restoring devices fix the problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfhutchi Posted June 14, 2016 Author Share Posted June 14, 2016 I thought that I would try deleting a device from my ISY and re-adding, but when trying to add it, I get the following error: The following devices could not be added: 07.76.72 (2476D) Switchlinc Dimmer v.27 - Cannot determine Insteon Engine What does this mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techman Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 I thought that I would try deleting a device from my ISY and re-adding, but when trying to add it, I get the following error: The following devices could not be added: 07.76.72 (2476D) Switchlinc Dimmer v.27 - Cannot determine Insteon Engine What does this mean? It's most likely a communications problem or a bad device. Try doing a factory reset on the Switchlinc. The switch appears to be an old model, it's possible that it failed. What is the firmware and UI versions of the ISY? What process did you use to add the Switchlinc to the ISY? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfhutchi Posted June 14, 2016 Author Share Posted June 14, 2016 Firmware and UI Insteon UD_994 v.4.4.6 I also would have thought this was a simple communication issue, but I didn't have any of these problems before my PLM went out. I have some extra Switchlincs that I can swap out and try, but it is too coincidental that multiple devices got flaky after I replaced my PLM. Also, the scenes programmed into my devices are receiving scene communication from other devices, but none of my devices seem to report their state changes to the ISY. This is why it seems that the ISY and/or PLM is a culprit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techman Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 Firmware and UI Insteon UD_994 v.4.4.6 I also would have thought this was a simple communication issue, but I didn't have any of these problems before my PLM went out. I have some extra Switchlincs that I can swap out and try, but it is too coincidental that multiple devices got flaky after I replaced my PLM. Also, the scenes programmed into my devices are receiving scene communication from other devices, but none of my devices seem to report their state changes to the ISY. This is why it seems that the ISY and/or PLM is a culprit. It sounds like your devices may be cross linked which can happen if more than one device is put into the linking mode at the same time or if the devices were not installed using the ISY Link management - New Insteon device. Try doing a factory reset on the devices then install them using the ISY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfhutchi Posted June 15, 2016 Author Share Posted June 15, 2016 It sounds like your devices may be cross linked which can happen if more than one device is put into the linking mode at the same time or if the devices were not installed using the ISY Link management - New Insteon device. Try doing a factory reset on the devices then install them using the ISY. Could I just do factory resets on the devices and then 'restore device' on the ISY console? I would hate to rebuild all my scenes and programs by actually deleting the device from the ISY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sub-Routine Posted June 15, 2016 Share Posted June 15, 2016 Could I just do factory resets on the devices and then 'restore device' on the ISY console? I would hate to rebuild all my scenes and programs by actually deleting the device from the ISY. You can try Menu/File/Restore Devices. This can take long time depending on how many devices you have (let it run overnight). There should be no need to reset your devices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techman Posted June 15, 2016 Share Posted June 15, 2016 Could I just do factory resets on the devices and then 'restore device' on the ISY console? I would hate to rebuild all my scenes and programs by actually deleting the device from the ISY. Were the devices originally installed using the ISY linking menu options? You can do a restore device assuming that the link records stored in the ISY are correct. If you are only restoring a few devices it shouldn't take more than a few minutes for each device. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfhutchi Posted June 15, 2016 Author Share Posted June 15, 2016 Yes. I originally installed using the ISY linking menu options. I'll try restoring all the devices. Even though I have been using the same setup for years... I am wondering about 'how' to test the quality of communication throughout the house. I probably should rule out all options even though this seemed less likely. Seems that there should be a way to map out the signal strength as reported by different devices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfhutchi Posted June 15, 2016 Author Share Posted June 15, 2016 Trying to look at PLM Links table. I only see 5 entries? Something doesn't seem right. Maybe I am not doing this right. PLM Info/Status 40.D1.55 v9E / Connected Open PLM Links Table.... press 'Start'. This is the XML information I get if I save it. Is there a better way to cut & paste what I see on the ISY console? Either way, it only shows 5 total links. title ix ad fl gr id data PLM Links Table 0 0 226 0 595820 65831 PLM Links Table 1 1 226 0 489074 65831 PLM Links Table 2 2 226 17 489074 65831 PLM Links Table 3 3 162 1 489074 65831 PLM Links Table 4 4 226 0 770016 133676 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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