jtara92101 Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 I moved to a new place, and took switches with me. All were working before move. ISY994i (Pro) 4.4.6 Having trouble with 2486DWH6's. All v5.3. I have 3 of them, none are able to link. No trouble with several other devices, and devices that work are on both phases. This is a bit of a rogue Insteon model - it's the dual-band SwitchLinc before they changed the model number. On one of them, I saw no messages in Event Viewer, so tried another. I do see messages in the Event Viewer, indicating the device is acknowledging. "Start Linking" won't work. It doesn't see the device when I put the device in link mode. If I manually link it (to ISY/PLM), giving the address, I get "Cannot determine Insteon Engine". I CAN'T specify the model when manually linking, because I can't find this model in the drop-down list! Also can't manually link to a LampLinc module, so doesn't seem to really be an ISY problem, but I might not remember the manual link procedure. The lack of the model in the drop-down seems suspicious though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtara92101 Posted July 4, 2016 Author Share Posted July 4, 2016 Oh, one strange thing about the new place. It's a multi-unit dwelling with the phases wired from 3-phase. That is, they use 2 of the 3 phases in each unit, and they are 120 degrees apart, not 180. Don't know if that might make a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtara92101 Posted July 4, 2016 Author Share Posted July 4, 2016 I find the 8-button, 2486DWH8 in the drop-down, but not the 6-button! There are several entries for just plain "2486D", but wouldn't know how to tell the difference between them. I have some old single-band, 2486D v1.8, but was trying to avoid using them (I have more switches and keypads that I need.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtara92101 Posted July 4, 2016 Author Share Posted July 4, 2016 Sigh. They all seem just not to work right. Classic Insteon lack of quality... Wasn't able to manually link to a LampLinc either. I realized the Keypads need a 10-second press on the button you want to link to put in link mode, and I was doing that wrong when trying do discover with the ISY admin console. But did no good either. (Now I remember doing the 10-second press the other day for a couple of the newer 2334-2 keypads.) So back to the 3-phase theory.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 Don't use the 2486DWH8. That's the discontinued countdown timer. Do try the 2486D. That should recognize both the 6- and 8-button dimmers. A 3-phase supply should not be a problem as long as you adequately bridged the phases. Do you have any Range Extenders. If not, have you used the 4-tap test to determine if the phases are, in fact, coupled? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtara92101 Posted July 4, 2016 Author Share Posted July 4, 2016 Tried a V1.8 with same result. Realized now that it is the SAME model number! 2486DWH6. So no clue how one is to distinguish models when manually adding. Seems I have to spend $100s more to get updated switches, after the $1000s I've already spent, as the only ones that seem to work are the current generation. Realize probably not an ISY issue, just venting about Insteon, some things never change! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtara92101 Posted July 4, 2016 Author Share Posted July 4, 2016 Don't use the 2486DWH8. That's the discontinued countdown timer. Do try the 2486D. That should recognize both the 6- and 8-button dimmers. A 3-phase supply should not be a problem as long as you adequately bridged the phases. Do you have any Range Extenders. If not, have you used the 4-tap test to determine if the phases are, in fact, coupled? I don't have any countdown timers. They are Switchlincs. Maybe the model numbers are printed wrong. On all of them! I have nothing that is marked just 2486D. I have 8 of the &^%$#! 2486DWH6. 5 of them are marked 2486DWH6 and under that 0826. Then at the bottom v1.8 and under that 1647. The numbers are all a mystery, I suppose somebody at Insteon will make some sense of it for me tomorrow. The other 3 are marked only at the bottom - 2486DWH6, under that v5.3 and under that 1023. The only keypads that work are the 2334-2's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 Don't use the 2486DWH8 that's in the dropdown list. That's the discontinued countdown timer. Do try the 2486D that's in the dropdown list. That should recognize both the 6- and 8-button dimmers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtara92101 Posted July 4, 2016 Author Share Posted July 4, 2016 OK, I give up. Capping the wires in the box. I'll just continue to manually switch a lamp on and off. Everything I've installed so far is dual-band, in a 900 sq ft apartment with the dual-band PLM right in the middle. The keypad I'm trying to install is literally on the other side of a wall from the PLM. 4-tap test? Never heard of that. I can see the communication with the devices that I'm not able to link in the Event Viewer. So no issue with phase bridging. And I am able to communicate with newer devices in the same room/same circuit as the one I am attempting now. I do have the very old phase bridges, 2443. One of them seems dead. The other one, I've tried plugging-in in various places "for good luck" but makes no difference. The phases should be bridged by the dual-band devices that are already working just fine on both phases. In the drop-down of device types, there are MANY 2446Ds! Which one? Every one I tried does the same thing "unable to determine Insteon Engine". I did try the first one, same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtara92101 Posted July 4, 2016 Author Share Posted July 4, 2016 Maybe something toxic about the power here. I did have one dual-band 2457D2 rev 1.33 go bad after installing it at the new location. Replaced it with another, which is working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 You're correct. There are a few 2486D devices listed including [01.1B] 2486D Keypad Dimmer 6-buttons. What device is displayed when you select Start Linking and put the device into linking mode? BTW, you don't need to hold a button for ten seconds. Just press the set button for 3-5 seconds. A pocket screwdriver helps Installing a bunch of dual-band devices can bridge the phases of a 3-phase electric supply, but just installing them does not ensure that coupling has occurred. The only practical test is to tap the set button of a dual-band device very, very quickly four times. The button will begin blinking. If it does not, then you didn't tap quickly enough. Try again. Once the test is started, observe the set button on other dual-band devices. Depending on the specific device, a positive result is either a solid or blinking green LED. Red indicates same phase, no response indicates lack of communication. You may also have something on one of more particular circuits causing a problem. As a test, try installing a problem keypad in the same switch box where adding an other device was successful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtara92101 Posted July 5, 2016 Author Share Posted July 5, 2016 There are a few 2486D devices listed including [01.1B] 2486D Keypad Dimmer 6-buttons. What device is displayed when you select Start Linking and put the device into linking mode? None. Unlike the devices that I WAS successful with. Once the test is started, observe the set button on other dual-band devices. Depending on the specific device, a positive result is either a solid or blinking green LED. Red indicates same phase, no response indicates lack of communication. This test seems completely successful. Blinking lights everywhere (solid bright on the old Access Point), and the correct color from my understanding of the breaker box. I also went around with a LampLinc dual-band and plugged into various outlets, to detect any dead zones, no problems. I had some trouble installing the two newest SwitchLincs that DO work. I had to manually add them, after first setting Advanced Options, Device Reported. They wouldn't show up when putting the ISY in linking mode. I'll try again in a day or two in a different box. At this point it takes a Home Depot run - out of Ideal push-in 3 and 4-port. (Foo on wire nuts!) Everything seems to work, until... "cannot determine Insteon Engine". I did just move the PLM to an outlet on the other side of the room from my computer. All the computer stuff is on a honking UPS (can work without power for a full 8-hour day, leftover from when I did software development for high-frequency trading...) and a monster Filter-Tec filter in front of it. I know enough not to put the PLM after the filter! But was plugged into the same duplex outlet as the filter, so perhaps the filter was sucking the signal. Really, none of this should matter since everything (at least now) is dual-band and quite close. I did try an old powerline-only lamplinc at further point from the PLM and no trouble. Got confused about the 10-second thing - that's for linking to a load without using the ISY. Too many variables! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 Power line noise can overcome RF communication. Use a long extension cord to power the ISY and PLM from a different circuit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtara92101 Posted July 7, 2016 Author Share Posted July 7, 2016 I think something has broken. Maybe my PLM? Maybe some software bug with ISY? It doesn't seem to be related to specific devices or specific rooms. For a while, I was able to link. And then I wasn't. I am unable to add any new devices. Always the same problem, "Cannot determine Insteon Engine". From event viewer, it appears the PLM is communicating with the device. Any ideas? I can query the devices I already linked. I can turn them on and off, etc. from the ISY. Just can't add anything new! Also, in the log, I get "Failed to add device, reason 3". Does that help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtara92101 Posted July 7, 2016 Author Share Posted July 7, 2016 Here is the log from trying to add a 2486D v5.3: ---- Thu 07/07/2016 01:46:13 PM : [All ] Writing 0 bytes to devices Thu 07/07/2016 01:46:20 PM : [INST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 16 26 53 0F 19 00 Thu 07/07/2016 01:46:20 PM : [INST-ACK ] 02 62 16.26.53 0F 19 00 06 LTSREQ (LIGHT) Thu 07/07/2016 01:46:29 PM : [INST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 16 26 53 0F 19 00 Thu 07/07/2016 01:46:29 PM : [INST-ACK ] 02 62 16.26.53 0F 19 00 06 LTSREQ (LIGHT) Thu 07/07/2016 01:46:38 PM : [INST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 16 26 53 0F 19 00 Thu 07/07/2016 01:46:38 PM : [INST-ACK ] 02 62 16.26.53 0F 19 00 06 LTSREQ (LIGHT) Thu 07/07/2016 01:47:56 PM : [16 73 EC ] Added to list of devices to link to ISY Thu 07/07/2016 01:47:56 PM : [INST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 16 73 EC 0F 0D 00 Thu 07/07/2016 01:47:56 PM : [INST-ACK ] 02 62 16.73.EC 0F 0D 00 06 (00) Thu 07/07/2016 01:48:05 PM : [INST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 16 73 EC 0F 0D 00 Thu 07/07/2016 01:48:05 PM : [INST-ACK ] 02 62 16.73.EC 0F 0D 00 06 (00) Thu 07/07/2016 01:48:14 PM : [INST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 16 73 EC 0F 0D 00 Thu 07/07/2016 01:48:14 PM : [INST-ACK ] 02 62 16.73.EC 0F 0D 00 06 (00) Thu 07/07/2016 01:48:18 PM : [16 73 EC 0 ] Failed to add device, reason 3 Thu 07/07/2016 01:48:18 PM : [All ] Writing 0 bytes to devices ----- And here is the log when I tried to add a 2476D, V5.15 In this case, it was "successfully" added, but still "can't determine Insteon engine", and cannot turn on/off from ISY. So, 2476D was "successfully" added, 2486D wasn't, and can't turn either on/off from ISY nor query. Yet from log, they appear to be acknowledging. Thu 07/07/2016 01:45:05 PM : [16 26 53 ] Added to list of devices to link to ISY Thu 07/07/2016 01:45:05 PM : [INST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 16 26 53 0F 0D 00 Thu 07/07/2016 01:45:05 PM : [INST-ACK ] 02 62 16.26.53 0F 0D 00 06 (00) Thu 07/07/2016 01:45:06 PM : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 16.26.53 22.FE.EF 2B 0D 01 (01) Thu 07/07/2016 01:45:06 PM : [Std-Direct Ack] 16.26.53-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2 Thu 07/07/2016 01:45:06 PM : [INST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 16 26 53 0F 10 00 Thu 07/07/2016 01:45:06 PM : [INST-ACK ] 02 62 16.26.53 0F 10 00 06 ID-REQ (00) Thu 07/07/2016 01:45:15 PM : [INST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 16 26 53 0F 10 00 Thu 07/07/2016 01:45:15 PM : [INST-ACK ] 02 62 16.26.53 0F 10 00 06 ID-REQ (00) Thu 07/07/2016 01:45:24 PM : [INST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 16 26 53 0F 10 00 Thu 07/07/2016 01:45:24 PM : [INST-ACK ] 02 62 16.26.53 0F 10 00 06 ID-REQ (00) Thu 07/07/2016 01:45:28 PM : [16 26 53 0 ] Calibrating engine version Thu 07/07/2016 01:45:28 PM : [16 26 53 0 ] May not fully support i2, reverting to i1 Thu 07/07/2016 01:45:28 PM : [16 26 53 0 ] Using Database Link Table offset 0x0FF8 (reported 0x0000) Thu 07/07/2016 01:45:28 PM : [16 26 53 1 ] Start : Adding device to ISY Thu 07/07/2016 01:45:28 PM : [16 26 53 1 ] Finish : Adding device to ISY was Successful Thu 07/07/2016 01:45:28 PM : [16 26 53 1 ] Link 0 : 0FF8 [A20022FEEFFF1F01] Saving [A20022FEEFFF1F01] Thu 07/07/2016 01:45:28 PM : [16 26 53 1 ] Link 1 : 0FF0 [E20122FEEF010001] Saving [E20122FEEF010001] Thu 07/07/2016 01:45:28 PM : [INST-TX-I2 ] 02 62 16 26 53 1F 2E 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 D1 Thu 07/07/2016 01:45:28 PM : [INST-ACK ] 02 62 16.26.53 1F 2E 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 D1 06 (00) Thu 07/07/2016 01:45:37 PM : [INST-TX-I2 ] 02 62 16 26 53 1F 2E 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 D1 Thu 07/07/2016 01:45:37 PM : [INST-ACK ] 02 62 16.26.53 1F 2E 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 D1 06 (00) Thu 07/07/2016 01:45:46 PM : [INST-TX-I2 ] 02 62 16 26 53 1F 2E 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 D1 Thu 07/07/2016 01:45:46 PM : [INST-ACK ] 02 62 16.26.53 1F 2E 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 D1 06 (00) Thu 07/07/2016 01:45:50 PM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [16 26 53 1] [OL] [0] uom=0 prec=-1 Thu 07/07/2016 01:45:50 PM : [ 16 26 53 1] OL 0 Thu 07/07/2016 01:45:50 PM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [16 26 53 1] [RR] [0] uom=0 prec=-1 Thu 07/07/2016 01:45:50 PM : [ 16 26 53 1] RR 0 Thu 07/07/2016 01:45:50 PM : [INST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 16 26 53 0F 19 00 Thu 07/07/2016 01:45:50 PM : [INST-ACK ] 02 62 16.26.53 0F 19 00 06 LTSREQ (LIGHT) Thu 07/07/2016 01:45:59 PM : [INST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 16 26 53 0F 19 00 Thu 07/07/2016 01:45:59 PM : [INST-ACK ] 02 62 16.26.53 0F 19 00 06 LTSREQ (LIGHT) Thu 07/07/2016 01:46:08 PM : [INST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 16 26 53 0F 19 00 Thu 07/07/2016 01:46:08 PM : [INST-ACK ] 02 62 16.26.53 0F 19 00 06 LTSREQ (LIGHT) Thu 07/07/2016 01:46:12 PM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [16 26 53 1] [ERR] [1] uom=0 prec=-1 Thu 07/07/2016 01:46:12 PM : [ 16 26 53 1] ERR 1 Thu 07/07/2016 01:46:12 PM : [16 26 53 0 ] Successfully added device Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtara92101 Posted July 7, 2016 Author Share Posted July 7, 2016 Maybe I am not understand the ACK messages? Maybe they don't come from the device in question, but from something else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtara92101 Posted July 7, 2016 Author Share Posted July 7, 2016 It seems that basically, I can't add ANYTHING new to the system successfully! Even manual linking (without ISY) doesn't work. I can use my expensive Insteon devices as dimmers. And that's it. The ones that have already been installed work. Assume I will be able to add additional links, but unable to add anything else to the system. Can't link to ISY, can't link to other devices. Strange. Anyone ever see this? It seems "something happened" a couple of days ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 Do you mean that manually linking device A to device B doesn't work? Is so, then that's usually an indication of power line noise maker (e.g., wall wart, computer) or signal sucker (e.g., surge suppressor, UPS). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techman Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 Have you tried doing a factory reset on one of the devices then trying to add it from the ISY? What's the date code on the device you're trying to add? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtara92101 Posted July 7, 2016 Author Share Posted July 7, 2016 I've factory-reset every device as I added them. I just moved, so old links not useful. It was working, and now it is not. I don't know anything about date codes. FWIW, the devices I'm trying to add are a 2476D v5.15 and a 2686DWH6 v5.3. But NOTHING will link now. I just received some RF-only magnetic contact sensors. Can't link them either. It doesn't seem to be related to power-line issues, because no trouble communicating with powerline-only devices already installed. As well, can communicate with dual-band and RF-only device already installed. Cannot talk to anything not already installed. SOMETHING went south. I wonder if it was when I added the Portal? I've been told I can't have both Portal and Mobilinc Connect, and I will have to contact support and have one disabled? But I can't imagine that would cause this problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtara92101 Posted July 7, 2016 Author Share Posted July 7, 2016 I spoke too soon. I can add some devices. I can't add others. Oddly, it seems I can add plugin devices, not wired devices or rf-only devices. Doesn't seem to matter if the plug-in devices are dual-band or power-line only. I was able to add two old boxy LampLinc V2 and an ApplianceLinc outdoor 2456S3E. Can't add any SwitchLincs or KeypadLincs, dual-band or not. Suspecting I can only add V1 devices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtara92101 Posted July 7, 2016 Author Share Posted July 7, 2016 Actually, I was able to add new RF-only magnetic contact closures I just got. Forgot that the link procedure in iSY is different for these. I just can't add any new in-wall devices it seems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWareman Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 How many devices total? I wonder if you are at (or near) the link capacity of the PLM, or the device capacity of the ISY (if not the PRO model) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtara92101 Posted July 7, 2016 Author Share Posted July 7, 2016 How many devices total? I wonder if you are at (or near) the link capacity of the PLM, or the device capacity of the ISY (if not the PRO model) Nowhere near the link capacity. I do have the PRO model anyway. I'm downsizing considerably - will have quite a few leftover devices for eBay when I am done. So far, only 8 devices. Actually, 10, but can't link the last 2 to the PLM. The system is small enough that it would not be that painful to just start over. May do that tomorrow, and perhaps jump to 5.x. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 IMO, it's not just not a good idea, it's a terrible idea to move to an Alpha version when you can't get a known, proven version to function properly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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