jtara92101 Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 See my other post for some more info, and how I arrived at this conclusion. Though a more focused discussion would be useful. http://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/19291-2486dwh6-cannot-determine-insteon-engine/ I think I have this narrowed down, but at this point it is only a theory. Cannot confirm with Insteon/SmartHome - they seem swamped, and are impossible to get through to (more than 1 hour wait time) and have not responded to my email from Friday morning yet. (Really bummer, as I have a store credit I will have to CALL to redeem because I have multiple accounts from through the years, and dread having to call them...) Anyway, me theory is this: If you have "v5" SwitchLinc and KeypadLinc devices, they will not be able to link (either to PLM or to other devices, e.g. by "manual" linking) if there is some device between that only repeats I1 messages. This MAY only occur if the repeating is done over RF. (Not certain on that part yet.) No problem with the latest devices - for example, 2334-2 KeypadLinc. While they will fall back to I1 if an I1-only if communicating through an I1-only repeating node, they still work and are able to link. For example, I have two of these. One is in my office, near the PLM. I can see from event log that they are communicating with the PLM using I2C. I have another one at my front door, and it is on the other phase of the wiring. It is clear from event log (repeat count) and simple logic that it has to be going through an RF repeating node to get to the PLM. And I can see that it is communicating with the PLM using I1. Sure, "it would be nice" if I updated everything and it communicated using I2C! But it would not be nice to fork over even more $$$ to update my system, when I already have an excess of devices from recent move! I have no problems with older devices - I have many 1.8 SLs and 3.3 KPLs and they work just fine. Along with the latest KPLs (don't have any of the latest SLs) micro-dimmer, and various RF-only devices. But I have a HUGE stack of "doesn't work" 5.x devices. Some of these seem to work intermittently, and may depend on where you place them in system. Can't confirm, but think also they make other devices go wonky if you install them. I also think that the devices can become somehow permanently corrupted such that they will never again link. Again, just a theory, but I have seen too many of these go from "works" to "flakey" to "doesn't work at all". (Except for local dimmer function.) Perhaps there is some sort of "super factory reset"? The devices in question: KPL version 5.3 SL version 5.15 The SLs are single-band powerline only. The KPLs are Insteons early attempt at dual-band. Note these are the versions printed on the devices. I know the firmware versions are a bit different, but don't have any of these installed right now. With this specific information now, I wonder if others have observed similar results? Maybe this will help clear up some mysteries! ---- General question: I've read that some features on some devices "don't work" if can't communicate using I2C. Now, how the heck can that be considered "backward compatible"? (Which I thought all Insteon devices were? Save loss of X-10 in some recent devices.) Specifically what features on what devices are lost when a device has to fall back from I2C to I1? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techman Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 All Insteon devices are compatible with the latest 4.x.x ISY firmware release, and will work with each other. The newer devices do not support X10. It's possible for a device to get permanently damaged from voltage surges in the power line, from exceeding the current load or from excessive heat. The older I1 devices do not support RF and is for the most part a discontinued technology Your PLM must support I2CS in order for it to take advantage of the device's I2CS protocol. The attached Insteon white paper should answer most of your questions Insteon white paper.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 After reading some of the random posts you have created in this forum. No where do I see the basic(s) being followed or even attempted as others have suggested here. Also based on the information you have provided thus far its apparent to me how you came to a final conclusion, which isn't based on facts. If all of these devices worked perfectly fine in the previous home that would indicate what? That all of the Insteon hardware in your possession is compatible and has nothing to do with any of the random ideas you have suggested . . . None of this rocket science and it never ceases to amaze me how people fail to even RTFM. As of this writing I have personally installed over 400 plus Insteon sites that range from the first Smarthome branded Insteon product line to the very latest. I am probably also one of the most vocal and direct person who has no problem throwing Insteon under the bus - should it be deserved. In this case you have at least ten things you haven't done to ensure a solid and reliable Insteon network. I would highly suggest you take some time to read the manual and understand how each device is supposed to function and what features are present for that period of hardware. Once you fully understand how each device is supposed to operate - hard reset all of the devices per the manual for those specific units as various years and models had unique steps. Next, verify and confirm proper coupling / bridging via the 4 tap beacon test as outlined by the full users manual. Again, each device will have a unique method to indicate same phase - opposite phase. Regardless of how much coupling / bridging you have in the home it will not supersede the need to identify all the noise makers - signal suckers in the home. Every device needs to be either filtered, removed, or replaced there is no other solution. The most direct approach is to unplug every device in the home and verify that the Insteon network is sound and reliable. At each point you will add in another piece of electronics in the home and rinse & repeat. I can tell you from personal experience 99% of the people who get involved with powerline home automation are too lazy to do this step. So to help the lazy the next best step is to turn off breakers which isn't ideal because one breaker could shut off an entire branch circuit where coupling was or where massive noise makers - signal suckers were present! But again, for the 99% of lazy people this works just fine but those lazy people still need to use some grey matter up in their brain to isolate what else is on that circuit. But, oh boy guess what?!?! They will end up doing exactly what I just wrote above and have to unplug those devices to find out whats causing the freaking comm issues! You see, doing the first step would have saved massive amount of time and offered factual data and no guessing is required. Using the breaker method would require the lazy person to just do the same step one over again. At the end of the day there is real work that needs to be done and stop all the guessing . . . Everyday I watch people guessing, swapping parts, and chasing their tales when none of this is magic. Its just following some basics, using common sense, and RTFM . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtara92101 Posted July 9, 2016 Author Share Posted July 9, 2016 Small correction - the new dual-band KPL at the front door DOES get back to the PLM with I2C. See log: Sat 07/09/2016 02:19:56 PM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 3D 8C A6 0F 19 00 Sat 07/09/2016 02:19:56 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 3D.8C.A6 0F 19 00 06 LTSREQ (LIGHT) Sat 07/09/2016 02:19:56 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 3D.8C.A6 22.FE.EF 2B 00 00 (00) Sat 07/09/2016 02:19:56 PM : [std-Direct Ack] 3D.8C.A6-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2 Sat 07/09/2016 02:19:56 PM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [3D 8C A6 1] [sT] [0] uom=0 prec=-1 Sat 07/09/2016 02:19:56 PM : [ 3D 8C A6 1] ST 0 Sat 07/09/2016 02:19:56 PM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [3D 8C A6 1] [OL] [255] uom=0 prec=-1 Sat 07/09/2016 02:19:56 PM : [ 3D 8C A6 1] OL 255 Sat 07/09/2016 02:19:56 PM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [3D 8C A6 1] [RR] [31] uom=0 prec=-1 Sat 07/09/2016 02:19:56 PM : [ 3D 8C A6 1] RR 31 Sat 07/09/2016 02:19:56 PM : [iNST-TX-I2CS] 02 62 3D 8C A6 1F 2E 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 D1 Sat 07/09/2016 02:19:56 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 3D.8C.A6 1F 2E 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 D1 06 (00) Sat 07/09/2016 02:19:56 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 3D.8C.A6 22.FE.EF 2B 2E 00 (00) Sat 07/09/2016 02:19:56 PM : [std-Direct Ack] 3D.8C.A6-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2 Sat 07/09/2016 02:19:57 PM : [iNST-ERX ] 02 51 3D 8C A6 22 FE EF 11 2E 00 01 01 00 00 20 20 1F FF 05 00 C0 00 00 00 Sat 07/09/2016 02:19:57 PM : [Ext-Direct ] 3D.8C.A6-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0 The one in my office (near the PLM and on same phase): Sat 07/09/2016 02:21:38 PM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 3D 90 2B 0F 19 00 Sat 07/09/2016 02:21:38 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 3D.90.2B 0F 19 00 06 LTSREQ (LIGHT) Sat 07/09/2016 02:21:38 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 3D.90.2B 22.FE.EF 2B 00 00 (00) Sat 07/09/2016 02:21:38 PM : [std-Direct Ack] 3D.90.2B-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2 Sat 07/09/2016 02:21:38 PM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [3D 90 2B 1] [sT] [0] uom=0 prec=-1 Sat 07/09/2016 02:21:38 PM : [ 3D 90 2B 1] ST 0 Sat 07/09/2016 02:21:38 PM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [3D 90 2B 1] [OL] [255] uom=0 prec=-1 Sat 07/09/2016 02:21:38 PM : [ 3D 90 2B 1] OL 255 Sat 07/09/2016 02:21:38 PM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [3D 90 2B 1] [RR] [31] uom=0 prec=-1 Sat 07/09/2016 02:21:38 PM : [ 3D 90 2B 1] RR 31 Sat 07/09/2016 02:21:39 PM : [iNST-TX-I2CS] 02 62 3D 90 2B 1F 2E 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 D1 Sat 07/09/2016 02:21:39 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 3D.90.2B 1F 2E 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 D1 06 (00) Sat 07/09/2016 02:21:39 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 3D.90.2B 22.FE.EF 2B 2E 00 (00) Sat 07/09/2016 02:21:39 PM : [std-Direct Ack] 3D.90.2B-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2 Sat 07/09/2016 02:21:39 PM : [iNST-ERX ] 02 51 3D 90 2B 22 FE EF 11 2E 00 01 01 00 00 20 20 1F FF 05 00 C0 00 00 00 Sat 07/09/2016 02:21:39 PM : [Ext-Direct ] 3D.90.2B-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0 But micro-dimmer, which is furthest from the PLM: Sat 07/09/2016 02:25:03 PM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 3B 2E 83 0F 19 00 Sat 07/09/2016 02:25:03 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 3B.2E.83 0F 19 00 06 LTSREQ (LIGHT) Sat 07/09/2016 02:25:03 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 3B.2E.83 22.FE.EF 27 00 FF (FF) Sat 07/09/2016 02:25:03 PM : [std-Direct Ack] 3B.2E.83-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1 Sat 07/09/2016 02:25:03 PM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [3B 2E 83 1] [sT] [255] uom=0 prec=-1 Sat 07/09/2016 02:25:03 PM : [ 3B 2E 83 1] ST 255 Sat 07/09/2016 02:25:03 PM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [3B 2E 83 1] [OL] [255] uom=0 prec=-1 Sat 07/09/2016 02:25:03 PM : [ 3B 2E 83 1] OL 255 Sat 07/09/2016 02:25:03 PM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [3B 2E 83 1] [RR] [27] uom=0 prec=-1 Sat 07/09/2016 02:25:03 PM : [ 3B 2E 83 1] RR 27 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtara92101 Posted July 9, 2016 Author Share Posted July 9, 2016 No, I've done everything suggested above, save for a witch-hunt for noise, for which I am not currently equipped - as I just gave-away my (one channel working...) Textronix scope, as it was one of the things I no longer have room for. Anyway, the average consumer wouldn't be able to conduct a witch-hunt for noise - and SmartHome squarely markets Insteon to consumers. Yes, professional installers as well, but mainly to consumers! Factory reset - check, every single device. 4-tap test. Yes, flying colors. Since I am an ex-ham, and did have an interest in shortwave listening in my previous location (not possible here, and no longer have an interest) I did in fact eliminate most sources of noise in my previous place. (Ah, actually, I probably still have a "sniffer" if I can find it...) The only electronics in the place would be my computer, etc. and it's all fed through a huge FilterTec filter. If it can't work with typical home electronics operating, then it doesn't work - period. SmartHome did realize that, and went to dual-band. IMO, they should just go to RF-only at this point. Give everybody who funded their years of development toward an unachievable goal, and just admit that the old power-line technology never worked right and never will. I know what it takes to get rid of the noise in home electronics, and it is not a reasonable fix. You'd have to replace every switching power supply with a linear supply, for starters. I killed most of it - at least the awful radio buzz - by putting all my computer electronics in a metal rack cabinet, all off the same power feed, and connecting the UPS (yes, UPS, sorry, my job requires that I be able to work off-power if need be, it's a practical consideration) through a multi-stage filter of adequate (more than) capacity. Yes, I have an inkjet printer and monitors (I can't crawl inside the cabinet, and the monitors are too big), outside of the rack cabinet. Yes, I have a couple of iPhone chargers. I'm not going off-the-grid for the sake of home automation, LOL! There is a clear correlation that the 5.x devices have a serious problem when mixed with others. I consciously started the new system with the newest devices I had, and worked back from there. I was not expecting the "wall" at the 5.x devices! I am willing to ditch assumptions, though, and so now all is working fine so long as I use either pre-5.x or post-5.x devices. No, they weren't all working in my old place. They once were, but the system was gradually degrading over time. So, I knew when I moved, I had to sort the working from the non-working, and guess what? The non-working at almost all 5.x! (The two exceptions: one of a pair of 15-year-old access points that just went completely dead, dead power supply I presume. I think it performed adequate duty! And a very old big boxy LampLinc that is reported memory write failures. Both expected failure modes, and not as upsetting as my dozen-or-so dead 5.x devices. I'm sure, though, that a lot of professional installers are more than happy with Smarthome for providing them with adequate justification to charge a great deal of money conducting a witch-hunt for noise! That perfectly-good TV - NOISE MAKER, GOTTA GO!. Ohhh, look here, your speaker wires are leaking RF, you need GOLD PLATED ONES! To be clear, EVERYTHING WORKS PERFECTLY NOW. The problem is solved, but I have a pile of non-working 5.x devices ("a pile" meaning, like a dozen). Fortunately, I don't need those, I have way more devices than I need. I MIGHT eventually replace the really old ones (the 1.8 SLs and 3.3 KPLs) with the latest, but at this point I see no reason, since there are no problems. I've now sorted through everything on my quick-test zip-cord setup, and am confident that there is some correlation with 5.x devices. I made the false assumption that "newer is better" and I was wrong. I do realize that for many here, 5.x is "old". I posted in order to: 1. Save somebody else the grief. 2. See if others have noticed the same correlation. (Or maybe those with troubled systems might air-gap their 5.xs and see what happens...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryllix Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 At least get rid of those 25L6 noise makers you have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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