Compatability Question: LED Strip Light Driver comparable with Insteon Dimmer Switch

[epete]

I have an old 2X4' T12 Florescent Ceiling lamp that takes 4 T12 Bulbs.  I would love to gut the lamp (remove ballasts and bulbs) and replace with four 4 foot strips of LED Tape.  I wanted t know if anyone was familiar with the LED Drivers that go from the 120VAC and provide the 12V DC output.  Some are dimmable with "MLV TRIAC" Dimming switches.  I am wondering what I need to look for to be compatible with Insteon so I can connect the driver to an Insteon Dimmer.

 

 

[jtara92101]

Some are dimmable with "MLV TRIAC" Dimming switches.  I am wondering what I need to look for to be compatible with Insteon so I can connect the driver to an Insteon Dimmer.

 

 

That's what you need to look for! Yes, those are compatible.

 

Don't get your hopes up on dimming at the low-end. They will probably cut-off at 20%. It's just not possible to achieve "architectural" dimming (typically defined as 5% or less) with this setup. 

 

Some of the screw-in bulbs are getting better, in that at least they don't cut-off at 20% or 10%, but instead, maintain their lowest-possible dimming below the cutoff down to maybe 5%. I dunno which strip light drivers might do this as well.

[epete]

I can live with with the dimming limitations and can probably swap out my LED Driver in the future if this is a problem.  Thanks for your help

[roblombardo]

I'm, using Illuminous EV-12V-1000-12D drivers with the Insteon micro dimmers. They work very well.

[epete]

Thanks.

 

I assume this is the driver you are talking about

https://www.amazon.com/Pack-ONE-Dimmable-Driver-approved/dp/B00AH2OX5E/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1472510505&sr=8-1&keywords=EV-12V-1000-12D

 

It says it is only 12W, so I am thinking it may not be good to connect to four of these

 

https://www.amazon.com/Hyperikon-equivalent-Single-Ended-DLC-Qualified-Tombstones/dp/B00NXBMDEY/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1472511270&sr=8-3&keywords=4%27+led+t8

 

In fact it says these tubes are 18W each so probably wont even drive one

 

Then going back to my LED Strip idea, I could simply use these by cutting it into four, 4 foot strips

 

https://www.amazon.com/LEDwholesalers-Flexible-300xSMD3528-Adhesive-2026WH/dp/B007JF2A6G/ref=sr_1_39?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1472511785&sr=1-39&keywords=led%2Blight%2Bstrip&refinements=p_n_feature_keywords_four_browse-bin%3A7802632011

 

These are 24W total so I could use two drivers to drive two 4 foot strips each and then connect both drives to the same Insteon Dimmer.

 

Any ideas on what I should look for on strip lights?  I want 4000K White, but other than that, do some strips have better LEDs than others?  Do they have different spacing?

 

Am I better off looking for a higher wattage Driver?  Maybe even something that can handle 50W and just get the tubes?

 

Just looking for opinions before I purchase anything.

[epete]

After thinking about this some more, I realized I cannot use tubes as they already have their own drivers built in.  So I will look for double density SMD3528 Strips

[larryllix]

After thinking about this some more, I realized I cannot use tubes as they already have their own drivers built in.  So I will look for double density SMD3528 Strips

You may want to use the single width strip folded back. They come in 5m (15.4') lengths with connectors on each end.

 

Cut in half and folded would give you 49 inches.

 

I suspect inside a tube could give you heat problems and burn out the LEDs though. LEDs run hot when confined and can't take their own heat generated without lots of cooling.

 

 

The SMD5050 RGBWW strips have a beautiful white that appears to run about 3000-3500K. I have several RGBCW strips that I replaced after seeing the WW strips. The CW ones were way too violet, against 6500K fluorescent tubes, and not what I consider white at all.

Edited August 30, 2016 by larryllix

[epete]

You may want to use the single width strip folded back. They come in 5m (15.4') lengths with connectors on each end.

 

Cut in half and folded would give you 49 inches.

 

I suspect inside a tube could give you heat problems and burn out the LEDs though. LEDs run hot when confined and can't take their own heat generated without lots of cooling.

 

 

The SMD5050 RGBWW strips have a beautiful white that appears to run about 3000-3500K. I have several RGBCW strips that I replaced after seeing the WW strips. The CW ones were way too violet, against 6500K fluorescent tubes, and not what I consider white at all.

 

At this point I was planning to cut them into four 4 foot lengths and use the double stick tape to tape directly onto the 2X4 foot lamp fixture.  So there would be no tubes,  I see the LED Drivers like to be used at >50% of the rated power so depending on the power rating of the driver, I will design for the strips to use ~90% of the rated power and either use two 26W or one 48W Driver.

 

Not sure what you mean by folded back, maybe you meant so there are lights on either side of the strip.  I think for the 2X4 enclosure, it may be better to simply tape the strip to the housing where each of the 4 tubes would have been.  This will make sure the light is directed downward and evenly distribute the light over the entire fixture.

 

For SMD5050 RGBWW, I see this https://www.amazon.com/BZONE%C2%AE-Flexible-SMD5050-Non-waterproof-Multicolor/dp/B01ABC7PMM/ref=sr_1_1?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1472569182&sr=1-1&keywords=SMD5050+RGBWW+strips 

 

I see 4 pins on these.  I assume one is ground and the other three are power for the Red, Green and Blue.  Not sure how I would connect this to get the 3000-3500K white.  It also doesnt tell me the power consumption per foot.

[jtara92101]

Why not just get the tubes? Seems like a lot of trouble on a DIY project to perhaps save a bit of money, when you can just go out and already-manufactured tubes for cheap?

 

You just have to bypass the ballast on your fixture.

 

Example:

 

https://www.1000bulbs.com/product/153509/PLT-10021.html?utm_source=SmartFeedGoogleBase&utm_medium=Shopping&utm_term=PLT-10021&utm_content=Direct+Wire+-+4100K+T8+Retrofit+LED+Tubes&utm_campaign=SmartFeedGoogleBaseShopping&gclid=CJyXos3b6c4CFY5rfgodFc0IhQ

 

Just make sure you get ones that are dimmable. (Note the one above is not dimmable.)

Edited August 30, 2016 by jtara92101

[larryllix]

At this point I was planning to cut them into four 4 foot lengths and use the double stick tape to tape directly onto the 2X4 foot lamp fixture.  So there would be no tubes,  I see the LED Drivers like to be used at >50% of the rated power so depending on the power rating of the driver, I will design for the strips to use ~90% of the rated power and either use two 26W or one 48W Driver.

 

Not sure what you mean by folded back, maybe you meant so there are lights on either side of the strip.  I think for the 2X4 enclosure, it may be better to simply tape the strip to the housing where each of the 4 tubes would have been.  This will make sure the light is directed downward and evenly distribute the light over the entire fixture.

 

For SMD5050 RGBWW, I see this https://www.amazon.com/BZONE%C2%AE-Flexible-SMD5050-Non-waterproof-Multicolor/dp/B01ABC7PMM/ref=sr_1_1?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1472569182&sr=1-1&keywords=SMD5050+RGBWW+strips 

 

I see 4 pins on these.  I assume one is ground and the other three are power for the Red, Green and Blue.  Not sure how I would connect this to get the 3000-3500K white.  It also doesnt tell me the power consumption per foot.

RGBW has to have 5 pins.

 

If you cut the 5m length into four lengths, then two of them will  have no connections on the ends. I have done soldering all my life and I doubt I could solder another set of wires onto a silicone dipped PCB strip that the foil  will evaporate when you apply a soldering iron to it.

 

If you are thinking about the solderless, 5 pin, snap on connectors, they sell on eBay, I have a box of them and the spacing is incorrect. They don't work despite the cons they give you on eBay. The vendors admit it but still sell them for those strips. They short out some connections.

 

The 5m strips come with connectors welded on each end. You will have to fold the 2.5m lengths in half for easy factory made  connections.

[epete]

Why not just get the tubes? Seems like a lot of trouble on a DIY project to perhaps save a bit of money, when you can just go out and already-manufactured tubes for cheap?

 

You just have to bypass the ballast on your fixture.

 

Example:

 

https://www.1000bulbs.com/product/153509/PLT-10021.html?utm_source=SmartFeedGoogleBase&utm_medium=Shopping&utm_term=PLT-10021&utm_content=Direct+Wire+-+4100K+T8+Retrofit+LED+Tubes&utm_campaign=SmartFeedGoogleBaseShopping&gclid=CJyXos3b6c4CFY5rfgodFc0IhQ

 

Just make sure you get ones that are dimmable. (Note the one above is not dimmable.)

 

All of the Ballast bypass tubes are non dimmable.  I didn't think tubes designed to be used with a ballast would be compatible with the Insteon switch.

 

https://a89b8e4143ca50438f09-7c1706ba3fabeeda794725d88e4f5e57.ssl.cf2.rackcdn.com/spec_sheets/files/000/038/192/original/green-creative-97833-dimmer-comp.pdf?1456241917

 

Above is a link to a dimmable tube that lists the compatible dimmers.  I would definitely consider these bulbs if I knew they would work.

 

If buying my own driver and LED Strips would perform better as I would have control of the driver, then hat would be my preference.

[epete]

RGBW has to have 5 pins.

 

If you cut the 5m length into four lengths, then two of them will  have no connections on the ends. I have done soldering all my life and I doubt I could solder another set of wires onto a silicone dipped PCB strip that the foil  will evaporate when you apply a soldering iron to it.

 

If you are thinking about the solderless, 5 pin, snap on connectors, they sell on eBay, I have a box of them and the spacing is incorrect. They don't work despite the cons they give you on eBay. The vendors admit it but still sell them for those strips. They short out some connections.

 

The 5m strips come with connectors welded on each end. You will have to fold the 2.5m lengths in half for easy factory made  connections.

 

OK, yes.  I have soldered LED Strips with and without the silicone protective seal.  If I purchased strip lights I would look for strips that dont use the silicone.  My Florescent fixture has a frosted cover so the strips should be fully hidden anyway.  I also have solderless connectors that dont perform very well.  I much prefer solder.

 

So how would I power these strips.  I asume I need to put power on the proper combination of pins that gibe the combined color of the 4100K White.

[larryllix]

OK, yes.  I have soldered LED Strips with and without the silicone protective seal.  If I purchased strip lights I would look for strips that dont use the silicone.  My Florescent fixture has a frosted cover so the strips should be fully hidden anyway.  I also have solderless connectors that dont perform very well.  I much prefer solder.

 

So how would I power these strips.  I asume I need to put power on the proper combination of pins that gibe the combined color of the 4100K White.

I use the MiLight controllers but 4100K is not available via them. With the MiLight/LimitlessLED controllers it's RGB or White, no mixing but the SuperNight RGBWW strips have the nicest white I have seen. Very smooth white good for work surfaces without being 6500K but good for softer lighting too. My guess is about 3000-3500K.

[epete]

I did some searching on dimmable LED T8 Tubes.  I see they require dimmable ballasts.  So if I go this route, I will need to purchase two 2-bulb dimmable ballasts.  These are not cheap and the bulbs are more expensive.  

 

I am not convinced that going the LED Driver + LED Strips will be any less epensive and may not work as well.

 

So do the MiLight controllers interface with ISY?  

[larryllix]

I did some searching on dimmable LED T8 Tubes. I see they require dimmable ballasts. So if I go this route, I will need to purchase two 2-bulb dimmable ballasts. These are not cheap and the bulbs are more expensive.

 

I am not convinced that going the LED Driver + LED Strips will be any less epensive and may not work as well.

 

So do the MiLight controllers interface with ISY?

 

Yup. I used a dozen Network resources for 9 bulbs/strips and 2 hubs, for many months. Now io_guy has written a Nodelink Node for them that remebers what you last set them at.

 

Either system you need a 12v 3-6A power supply, and a controller for each strip, but the MiLights also need a WiFi to priority 2.4GHz bridge/hub.

 

The MiLight controllers are one way comms, only, so you can't interrogate them for status. They just obey what you send and with NodeLink, remembers what you set them at.

 

There is a recent thread concerning a newer controller for the strips (around the $15-18 each) that should perform better, and you can mix white and RGB to make pastels or white temperatures. No hub is required being WiFi listening controllers. The technique to NR control these is still being discovered. Look for the recent posts in the thread. The major issues are working. Many of us have these newer controller on order to experiement with so expect more progress.

Edited September 4, 2016 by larryllix

[jtara92101]

 

I did some searching on dimmable LED T8 Tubes.  I see they require dimmable ballasts.

 

Wrong ones. Those are called "direct replacement" or "plug and play" tubes. They are meant for directly replacing existing tubes without modifying the fixture. They use (or is it "tolerate"? ) the existing ballast. You can use an existing dimmable fluorescent ballast with some of these. This is for lazy retrofit. Actually, it is probably the only LEGAL retrofit, since modifying your fixture will invalidate the UL listing. (Even installing the strips, let alone bypassing the ballast.)

 

Edit: I take that back! There is a standard for LED conversion retrofits, and apparently ballast bypass is OK. Products can be UL listed as a conversion product. Installing your own strips still will invalidate the fixture's UL listing, if that matters to you. But if the place burns down, it WILL matter to your insurance company!

 

http://ulstandards.ul.com/standard/?id=1598C_1

 

 

You want the ones that require you to bypass your existing ballast. If they are dimmable, they will be dimmable with a common dimmer.

 

This is the kind you found. You don't want this:

 

http://www.ledsmagazine.com/articles/print/volume-11/issue-6/features/led-tubes/how-do-plug-and-play-t8s-stack-up-against-ballast-bypass-led-lamps.html

 

You want something like this:

 

http://www.ledtronics.com/Products/product_new.aspx?id=LED48T8SM-170X2-XWW-120CAD

 

 

• Requires Simple Ballast Bypass / Removal
• It's Recommended to Use "Leading-edge" Phase Control/Triac Dimmer Controls

 

 

 

In other words, works with normal household dimmer, like Insteon.

Edited September 4, 2016 by jtara92101

[larryllix]

I think one of the tricks with LED strips, and so many other gadgets, is you plug in a UL approved power supply and what you do with the 12vdc side is nobody else's business.

[epete]

I think one of the tricks with LED strips, and so many other gadgets, is you plug in a UL approved power supply and what you do with the 12vdc side is nobody else's business.

That's why so many products are powered by external UL approved AC Adapters.  Cuts the cost of getting the whole product UL Listed.

[epete]

 

 

You want something like this:

 

http://www.ledtronics.com/Products/product_new.aspx?id=LED48T8SM-170X2-XWW-120CAD

 

 

 

In other words, works with normal household dimmer, like Insteon.

 

...and wish me luck finding anyone willing to sell four of these.  Dimmable Ballast Bypass Bulbs are not common for the consumer market.  Thanks for showing me though, Until now, I didn't think any existed.  

[epete]

There is a recent thread concerning a newer controller for the strips (around the $15-18 each) that should perform better, and you can mix white and RGB to make pastels or white temperatures. No hub is required being WiFi listening controllers. The technique to NR control these is still being discovered. Look for the recent posts in the thread. The major issues are working. Many of us have these newer controller on order to experiement with so expect more progress.

 

Great. I will follow the thread out of interest.  The UL issue is making me lean towards implimenting bulbs, if I can ever get my hands on any.

[larryllix]

I would just rip out the fluorescent ballast and mount a UL approved 12vdc power supply in it's place.

Now can you do whatever you want with low voltage wiring and the high voltage wiring changes you made are all inside the metal fixture no different than wiring inside any other fixture.