Question about wiring a 3-way switch

[edokid]

Hi everyone, I have several 3-ways in my house I've already swapped for Insteon no problem.  The one right now is kicking my *** though.  Where the load is, there's the standard bundle of neutrals, the red traveler wire, and then the black wire.  I installed a SwitchLinc here and it controls the light upstairs just fine.

 

However when I go upstairs to the switch there, there's no neutral, it's just a white wire, black wire, and red traveler.  I've tried every combo, I cannot get a SwitchLinc to work up there (not connected to the load, just to connect to the switch downstairs as a scene).  The red and white must be connected together otherwise the light won't turn on at all.  I've tried everything, even my 2-wire SwitchLinc and no combo of wires will make it work, the switch upstairs always has no power.  I had it working at one point but as soon as you turn off the light downstairs it kills the switchlinc.  Since there's no neutral I assume I have to use my 2-wire SwitchLinc but I can't figure out how to wire it, it never gets power.  Do I have to use the red traveler in some capacity?

[giesen]

In the box downstairs, the white wire from upstairs should be tied to the neutrals, and the black wire from upstairs should be tied to the hot (line) feed from the panel. The red traveller should be capped at both ends. In the box upstairs, wire the switch black wire to the black wire in the box, the white switch wire to the white in the box, and cap off the red load wire on the switch.

 

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[giesen]

Sorry let me ask a clarifying question. Does the 2-wire feed from the panel and 2-wire feed from the load enter the same box? Is there a separate 3-wire feed from the box upstairs?

 

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[apostolakisl]

First off, red and white should never be spliced together.

 

Steps:

1) Find the hot.

  - turn off breaker

  - disconnect every black wire from every other black wire at each box.

  - turn on breaker

  - use volt meter to find which of the blacks is hot by touching one lead to each black and the other to a ground or neutral wire

  - turn off breaker

2) For simplicity, use the red traveler wire as your hot at box without native hot.  Splice red to hot wire.  Now red at box 2 is hot.

3) Connect red at box without native hot to hot on insteon switch.

4) Connect red/black spliced wires to hot on insteon swith at hot box.

5) One of your remaining unconnected blacks is the load wire.  You don't need to figure out which it is.  Just splice all the currently unused blacks together and splice one of the two insteon switches to it at either box (not both of them, just one).  Cap them all off.

6) Splice your Insteon Neutrals to whites at each box

7) Splice your Insteon grounds to house ground at each box

Breaker back on.

[edokid]

Thanks I'll review this and try it after as I put it all back together and gave up and forget what is what!  I have a power tester or whatever so it's easy to tell which line is which.  I'm pretty sure the white one going to upstairs is not a neutral, as originally that was how I wired it, I had that connect to the neutral on the SwitchLinc and then the black to the black one, capped off the red traveller in the box, and capped off the red load on the SwitchLinc like I did on all the other 3-ways.  That did work but when I'd turn the light off downstairs it would kill the SwitchLinc which makes me think the white is not a neutral.

 

@apostolakisl I think your post will make more sense when I get back into the box but that's what I was actually wondering if that was the way, as with my Lutron Caseta lights that's how you do it, shown here 

 

Only question is would I have to use the 2 wire dimmer, as I'm pretty sure that white wire is not a neutral, as again if I remove the switch upstairs and want to turn the light on I bundle the black and white together and it comes on, where as that wouldn't happen if it was a neutral.  It's 100% not a bundle of whites or anything, it's the first switch in my whole house I've seen without a bundle of white wires in it.  I think the missing link was using the red traveler as I had it capped at both ends doing nothing, just because with the Caseta ones you use a Pico remote for the remote switch so you're not wiring into anything.

 

@giesen your first post is what I did the first time but it didn't work, again because I think the white is not a neutral.  Going to give it a try again tomorrow when no one is home as family is getting annoyed at me cutting the power non stop

[stusviews]

In any 3-way configuration there must be two travelers, not one. Also, at least one white wire in not a neutral. Black can be a line wire, a load or one of the two traveler wires. So can white or red be any of those. If you have a 3-wau switch with only black, white and red wires, then one wire is the load or line and the other two are travelers. Nearly every 3-way configuration can be controlled using regular SwitchLincs.

 

Describe the wires in each switch box. Did you make not of which wire was connected to the black screw in the original configuration?

[apostolakisl]

Thanks I'll review this and try it after as I put it all back together and gave up and forget what is what!  I have a power tester or whatever so it's easy to tell which line is which.  I'm pretty sure the white one going to upstairs is not a neutral, as originally that was how I wired it, I had that connect to the neutral on the SwitchLinc and then the black to the black one, capped off the red traveller in the box, and capped off the red load on the SwitchLinc like I did on all the other 3-ways.  That did work but when I'd turn the light off downstairs it would kill the SwitchLinc which makes me think the white is not a neutral.

 

@apostolakisl I think your post will make more sense when I get back into the box but that's what I was actually wondering if that was the way, as with my Lutron Caseta lights that's how you do it, shown here 

 

Only question is would I have to use the 2 wire dimmer, as I'm pretty sure that white wire is not a neutral, as again if I remove the switch upstairs and want to turn the light on I bundle the black and white together and it comes on, where as that wouldn't happen if it was a neutral.  It's 100% not a bundle of whites or anything, it's the first switch in my whole house I've seen without a bundle of white wires in it.  I think the missing link was using the red traveler as I had it capped at both ends doing nothing, just because with the Caseta ones you use a Pico remote for the remote switch so you're not wiring into anything.

 

@giesen your first post is what I did the first time but it didn't work, again because I think the white is not a neutral.  Going to give it a try again tomorrow when no one is home as family is getting annoyed at me cutting the power non stop

 

The white wires are always neutral.  It is a big time code violation to do it otherwise.  So unless this was a DIY wiring job by somehow who seriously didn't know what they were doing, your whites are neutral, except for where you connected red to white, that is a code violation and you should undo that splice.

 

Yes, there are two travelers in a 3 way, but the red will for sure is a traveler.  The blacks can be a traveler, hot or load.  The way I told you to wire it, you only need to identify the hot, the others will by default end up connecting as needed.

[stusviews]

The white wires are always neutral.  It is a big time code violation to do it otherwise.

 

Not so. It is not only standard practice to use the white wire for other than a neutral wire in a 3-way configuration, it's the only possible way to wire a 3-way configuration when using a 3-conductor Romex cable..  The white wire should be marked (i.e., color tape) to be in accordance with the NEC, but that doesn't always happen.

[apostolakisl]

Not so. It is not only standard practice to use the white wire for other than a neutral wire in a 3-way configuration, it's the only possible way to wire a 3-way configuration when using a 3-conductor Romex cable..  The white wire should be marked (i.e., color tape) to be in accordance with the NEC, but that doesn't always happen.

Well it should always happen, it is code, and a pretty simple and reasonable and safety conscious one at that.  

 

But either way, you would never need to splice a white to a red.  And when switching to Insteon, your white doesn't need to be re-purposed as a hot, it can be used as neutral.  And I'm pretty sure you can't wire it that way in new construction since like a really long time.  Perhaps as an add on 3-way after the fact it is still OK.  But new construction requires a neutral at every box for probably well over a decade, maybe 20 years?

[stusviews]

The OP has an original 3-way configuration with three wires (ground, if any, is disregarded), black, red and white, none of which is a neutral. That's not unusual. Yes, the wires need to be connected differently to 1) work correctly with Insteon devices and 2) be in accordance with the code. Both requirements are easily met.

 

A description of the wires in each box is required.

[apostolakisl]

The OP has an original 3-way configuration with three wires (ground, if any, is disregarded), black, red and white, none of which is a neutral. That's not unusual. Yes, the wires need to be connected differently to 1) work correctly with Insteon devices and 2) be in accordance with the code. Both requirements are easily met.

 

A description of the wires in each box is required.

 

If you follow the procedure I outlined it will work.  You only need to know which is your hot.  Everything else defaults into place based solely on color.  It doesn't matter what 3-way configuration it was to start with.  White's will be neutral at all boxes doing it this way.

[stusviews]

IMO, black should be line at all boxes, not red.

 

Aside: The NEC does allow any color other than white, gray (both are allowed as a neutral) or green (ground only) to be line--unless appropriately marked.

[apostolakisl]

IMO, black should be line at all boxes, not red.

 

Aside: The NEC does allow any color other than white, gray (both are allowed as a neutral) or green (ground only) to be line--unless appropriately marked.

In a standard 3-way, red is alternately a hot wire.

 

The only difference between what I wrote and using black only as the hot is that you are using the black traveler wire to carry hot to box 2 instead of the red.  Since black is both the color of one of the travelers and the wire to the load, you have to figure out which is which should you choose to use it as the hot.  This is not difficult, but it is an added step which isn't necessary.  If you have a tone generator is is super easy.  If you have an ohm meter you can do it by hooking up one of the blacks to ground and going to the other box and seeing if the black at the other box is shorted to ground (of course you turn the power off to do this).

[G W]

On three-way switches, I wire the black to Line, cap off the Red and make sure white is connected properly.

 

Short and to the point.

Best regards,

Gary Funk

[stusviews]

That's the most usual wiring, black and white for line and neutral, respectively. The red wire, if used, is connected to the load.

[larryllix]

The biggest stumblng block for Switchlinc installers is that Insteon switches do not support 3-wire switch wiring. Insteon supports multiple switch controlled lighting through Insteon signal logic.

 

I have two switchlincs operating as a 3-wire logical configuration that are barely in the same house, let alone on the same circuit.

[stusviews]

Any Insteon scene that has more than one controller is a virtual 3-way configuration. Any standard 3-way wiring can be reconnected to support a virtual 3-way configuration.

[edokid]

Thanks again all, will try to post the setup soon haven't had a chance.  I'm literally 99% sure that the white is not a neutral.  My house is 9 years old we bought it built new from the builder, so any wiring in here was done by actual electricians and the builder.  Literally every switch I've changed so far has the bundle of white neutrals tucked back inside, but this one here on the upstairs 100% does not have that.  Just the red traveler, a black and a white, all 3 were connected to the original 3 way switch before I disconnected it.  I have to pull off the downstairs KPL to check that wiring, was such a pain to get it all tucked in there that I dread removing it again but will soon!

[oberkc]

Literally every switch I've changed so far has the bundle of white neutrals tucked back inside, but this one here on the upstairs 100% does not have that.  Just the red traveler, a black and a white, all 3 were connected to the original 3 way switch before I disconnected it.

 

If you had a three-way switch connected to black/white/red, you should be MORE than 99% confident that white is NOT a neutral.

[edokid]

K I'm at a loss with this!  Here's how the wires are:

 

Downstairs the box has:

- Hot black entering from the bottom to a wire nut which then went to the original switch 

- White line entering from the bottom to the big wire nut bundle of neutrals

- White line coming from that neutral bundle leaving the box through the top of the switch

- Red traveler leaving the box through the top, same line as the white neutral above which went to the original switch

- Black line leaving the box through the top, part of the same cable as the red/white above, which goes to the red on the KPL

This switch right now has the KPL with the white going to the neutral bundle, black to the black hot bundle coming in from the bottom, and then the red connected to the black line heading upstairs.  The KPL works fine to turn the light on and off.

As of right now I bundled the red traveler with the bundle of black hot wires from the first line above to bring a hot upstairs.

 

Upstairs the box has:

- The red traveler coming into it

- The black line from downstairs

- The white line from downstairs

The original switch up here had all 3 connected to it.  When I remove the switch, even with the KPL turned on downstairs the light up here is off.  I have to bundle the white/black together and then the light comes on only when that circuit is connected.

 

What I tried was bundling the red traveler with the black bundle of hot from downstairs to make that hot upstairs, and connected that to the black on the SwitchLinc upstairs and capped off the red line from the SwitchLinc.  The black/white upstairs is capped together otherwise the light is always off.  The Switchlinc does nothing and has no power, I assume because it needs a neutral.  So I tried my 2-wire one but same thing zero power to the SwitchLinc.  While leaving the power on I carefully tried connecting the SwitchLinc to pretty much every possible combo up there, nothing I do will make the SwitchLinc power up.  Not sure if it's because I need a neutral, but the 2-wire SL doesn't work either.

[edokid]

If you had a three-way switch connected to black/white/red, you should be MORE than 99% confident that white is NOT a neutral.

 

Well apostolakisl's post above says white must always be neutral otherwise it's a code violation so that's where the 1% of uncertainty comes from lol.

[apostolakisl]

Thanks again all, will try to post the setup soon haven't had a chance.  I'm literally 99% sure that the white is not a neutral.  My house is 9 years old we bought it built new from the builder, so any wiring in here was done by actual electricians and the builder.  Literally every switch I've changed so far has the bundle of white neutrals tucked back inside, but this one here on the upstairs 100% does not have that.  Just the red traveler, a black and a white, all 3 were connected to the original 3 way switch before I disconnected it.  I have to pull off the downstairs KPL to check that wiring, was such a pain to get it all tucked in there that I dread removing it again but will soon!

It doesn't matter what it used to be.  The white needs to be neutral now, you must have a neutral for Insteon.  At every box bundle any and all whites together.  You don't have a 3 way switch anymore, you don't need to use white for anything else.  If white was not neutral before, it was simply a wire between the boxes, it is not a wire going back to the house service panel.  Once you bundle the whites (and only whites) together at every box it will be neutral everywhere. 

[edokid]

It doesn't matter what it used to be.  The white needs to be neutral now, you must have a neutral for Insteon.  You have to have a neutral.  At every box bundle any and all whites together.

 

K I'll try that now, why doesn't the 2-wire switchlinc work though, it doesn't require a neutral but doesn't work at all.

[apostolakisl]

Well apostolakisl's post above says white must always be neutral otherwise it's a code violation so that's where the 1% of uncertainty comes from lol.

 

If white wasn't neutral, it should have been taped.  But again, it doesn't matter, it should be used as a neutral now for you Insteon setup.

[apostolakisl]

K I'll try that now, why doesn't the 2-wire switchlinc work though, it doesn't require a neutral but doesn't work at all.

 

2 wire insteon only works with an incandescent and "leaks" a little power through the load wire to the light bulb to power the switch itself.  It is like setting the dimmer on .01% or something.  The filament will be ever so slightly warmed up, but it won't light.