Stuck with 3 way switch wiring for Switchlink Dimmers

[wwat]

Hi,

 

I posted this same question elsewhere and the thread got a little confusing, at least for me so I'll try again with some pics to explain.

 

The pics demonstrate how the standard switches were connected to begin with. Can anyone explain how the Insteon switchlink dimers should be connected to set up a three way switch for this wiring scenario.

 

Switchbox 1 has a 14/2 and a 14/3 cable entering the box. If I disconnect switches in both boxes, and test all wires with a meter the only power comes from the WHITE 14/2 wire entering switchbox 1.

 

 

Switchbox 2 - only a 14/3 in this box

 

 

Fixture (there are 4 fixtures in all)

 

 

Thanks,

Wayne

[Sub-Routine]

Can you check for continuity from the black 14/2 to the hot of the light fixture?

 

Unfortunately it appears you do not have a neutral in either box

 

Rand

[G W]

It looks like the power was run to the light, then to box one, then 14/3 was run to box two. I"m also bothere by the lack of a ground wire in your pictures.

[upstatemike]

It looks like the power was run to the light, then to box one, then 14/3 was run to box two. I"m also bothere by the lack of a ground wire in your pictures.

 

There is a ground wire on the grounding point of the metal box. Newer installations would also have a ground pigtail to the device itself but that was not always a requirement.

 

Not having a neutral is certainly the challenge here.

[someguy]

here is what I would do, not sure if it will work, but worth a try:

 

1) turn power off at the breaker.

2) hook up an insteon switch to the 14-2 at switch box 1, but if you say the white wire is the power wire, then switch the polarity (black to white and white to black).

3) turn the power on and see if the LED light lights up.

 

If it does, then you could proceed with bringing power to the other switch with the other two wires and making it work.

 

My guess is that my plan won't work, but it is worth a try.

 

This might be the other option:

 

http://www.smarthome.com/2474S/2-Wire-I ... ite/p.aspx

 

even if you don't want to go this way, the wiring diagram in the user manual may be of help.

[upstatemike]

There is a chance that this will put the switch in series with the load and underpower the switch.

[someguy]

that's a good point.

 

let's try this:

 

remove all light bulbs from the fixtures, then go with my 3 steps. if the little LED light on the switchlinc goes on when you turn the power on, then proceed. If not, then you are in series and you have to make another plan.

[Sub-Routine]

I suspect the hot is on the white and the load on the black from the 14/2. The 14/3 carries the hot to switch 2 and the travelers between the switches.

 

An InlineLinc may be the only way.

 

Wayne, there is also a dimming version of the InlineLinc. The price on the kit is quite reasonable and is, AFAIK, the only way to get a switch that has no local control. It would be great if Smarthome would sell the kits with multiple switches. The n-way circuits are the most likely to be missing a neutral.

 

You will have to get in the box at the first fixture. You will have to rewire the 14/2 to carry hot and neutral to the switches. If you can pull the fixture it should not be very difficult. Many recessed fixtures are held up with springs, just pull them down.

 

Rand

[wwat]

Rand said:

Can you check for continuity from the black 14/2 to the hot of the light fixture?

 

Not sure which is the hot on the fixture but there was a measurement of 4.5 to the outer ring and 0.2 to the small copper strip in the centre of the fixture.

 

Rand said:

Unfortunately it appears you do not have a neutral in either box

 

You may have noticed that box 2 was not totally shown in the picture. Box 2 is actually a 3 gang box, the other two swtiches are an Insteon which is part of a 4 way switch and the other one is for another fixture all together.

That means there is a neutral in box 2 but its on a differnet circuit, I dont know what the code is in relation to using that or whether its even possible, just thought I'd let you know in case its useful.

 

Before I try what Someguy suggested I'll await an answer to this.

 

Thanks for everyones help.

 

Wayne

 

ps.

I suspect the hot is on the white and the load on the black from the 14/2. The 14/3 carries the hot to switch 2 and the travelers between the switches.

 

This seems correct.

[someguy]

You may have noticed that box 2 was not totally shown in the picture. Box 2 is actually a 3 gang box, the other two swtiches are an Insteon which is part of a 4 way switch and the other one is for another fixture all together.

That means there is a neutral in box 2 but its on a differnet circuit, I dont know what the code is in relation to using that or whether its even possible, just thought I'd let you know in case its useful.

 

One time in the recent past, I hooked up an insteon switch to the the wrong neutral in a double gang box by mistake and every time that I turned on the circuit breaker, it would blow. I'm no electrician, but I'd say you could try it, but it may not work, based on my experience.

 

Any other takers?

[Sub-Routine]

All you need in box 2 is a hot and a neutral, it doesn't matter what circuit that switch is on because that switch won't be connected to the load.

 

If you don't have ground fault breakers you could borrow the neutral from box 2 (via a traveler wire) for the switch in box 1. The only load on the neutral would be the power for the switch and not the fixtures.

 

The proper way to install though would be to use an InlineLinc at the fixture. Then you could use the hot and neutral (via traveler wires) to power switch 1 with no load connected to it and your hots will all match the neutrals.

 

Rand

[wwat]

The proper way to install though would be to use an InlineLinc at the fixture. Then you could use the hot and neutral (via traveler wires) to power switch 1 with no load connected to it and your hots will all match the neutrals.

 

Rand

 

If I have 4 fixtures does that mean I need 4 InlineLinks?

 

Wayne

[Sub-Routine]

If I have 4 fixtures does that mean I need 4 InlineLinks?

 

Wayne

 

Not as long as you don't exceed 300 watts. You can wire it just like the switch, except for the new neutral connection.

 

Rand

[gregoryx]

... there is a neutral in box 2 but its on a differnet circuit, I dont know what the code is in relation to using that or whether its even possible, just thought I'd let you know in case its useful.

 

perhaps worth pointing out that (in the panels I've looked in) the neutrals typically all go to ONE neutral bar; only the hots go through breakers... meaning ANY neutral is the same as the next.

 

I am no expert or professional electrician; I have installed a hundred switches in the last couple of houses I've had (had the Switchlinc V1s previously ) and I dealt with what you're doing a few times.

 

I found that Sub-Routine's advice a couple posts up was right on: if you can find a hot and a neutral in the box, there's a way to make it work; if there's a traveller between multi-switch installs, they make a great way to bring a hot (or neutral) to the other end. The other alternative seemed to be to get up to the light box itself and put in an inline and use both the old hot/load to become hot/neutral to power the switch.

 

Based on the pix you posted, it doesn't look to me like you need to do that; it looks like box one is the only potential problem, but it has another pair of wires tied together in the box. It /could/ be that pair is hot on a different circuit, but I'd bet not. If it's a common (though weird that it's a black tied to a white - I hate that), then you're in business on that box. You already established that you're in business in box two since there's live switchlincs in that box.

 

$.02, as usual.

[ulrick65]

Rand's suggestion is the best one for sure, unless you want to pull a wire to that box.

 

It is not really a good idea to use a neutral from a different circuit, although it will work fine provided you do not have ground fault breakers. It does violate code. It is also a safety concern because the borrowed neutral will have power on it even when it's associated breaker is off. Down the road, if someone were to shut off the breaker feeding that circuit, then test the hot wire...they would find no power. However, when they disconnected the neutral, they could get a shock because they would complete the circuit for the OTHER breaker that is still powered. Also you have the ability to overload the neutral wire because you now have double the amp capacity capable of going over it. For the 14 gauge wire, you will have a 15 amp breaker....using the neutral from the other circuit, you will have the capability of sending 30 amps down that neutral wire...which exceed it's capacity and it could get hot (which means risk of fire, etc.).

 

I don't recommend using the neutral from a seperate circuit.

[wwat]

Rand's suggestion is the best one for sure, unless you want to pull a wire to that box.

I don't recommend using the neutral from a seperate circuit.

 

unless you want to pull a wire to that box.

 

Thats not as bad as it sounds, and thinking more about it I might just do that down the road because this part of the house will be renovated within the next 12 months and the walls will be opened. I certainly wont do anything that violates code so if I were to go ahead it would have to be the Inlinelink route.

 

Appreciate everyones helps.

 

Wayne

[Sub-Routine]

While I have an aversion to InlineLincs (I prefer a switch with the load connected) I have found uses for a few of them, one in almost exactly the situation you have, but outside and so not as critical as an inside light.

 

We are lucky enough here to have conduit here so pulling a wire doesn't usually involve destructing a wall.

 

Did you have any luck removing the first fixture? I hate going to the attic.

 

Rand

[wwat]

 

Did you have any luck removing the first fixture? I hate going to the attic.

 

Rand

 

Does it have to be the first fixture, if thats a yes then which is the first fixture, from which end. My fixtures are in a square pattern in the basement ceiling (so no attic )

I was able to pull one of the fittings down and can get at the box which is screwed to the joists. At this stage I haven't got an InlineLink but would you mind explaining exactly how it would all work. Do I use standard 3-way switches and if so how does the dimming work etc..

 

Thank you,

Wayne

[ulrick65]

It mounts in the fixture for the light. What you have to do is rewire the wires that go down to the switch box #1 that you currectly have. This is called a "switch loop". Basically, power comes into the fixture first, then you run that power down to the switch and back to the fixture. In your case, you have a 3-way switch that complicates it a little more. The power runs down to your first box and then "travels" to your second box via the traveler wires, then back to your 1st box, then back to the fixture (via the black wire).

 

In a switch loop, it is "code" that the white wire be the "feed to the switch"...which in your case it is.

 

With the 2 wire dimmer kit (http://www.smarthome.com/2474D/2-Wire-INSTEON-Dimmer-Kit-White/p.aspx you can get dimming capability with your setup. It comes with good directions, but the jist of it is this:

 

You install the dimmer portion (that controls the load) in the fixture. You rewire the "switch loop" that goes down to your switch to be a normal power (black) and neutral (white) and then connect the no load switchlinc dimmer. This solves the problem.

 

You can install the second switchlinc dimmer in box #2 and connect it to the neutral that you can pick up on there (because, as Rand said, it has no load attached, it will be the only load...and it will get on the powerline via the power and neutral in that box, so it does not violate code). OR.....you could run the power and neutral that you have in box #1 over to box #2 via the 3-wire cable that you have (leaving one wire unused) and accomplish the same thing, while keeping both switches on the same circuit (this is what I would do if I were doing this in my house).

 

Running the new wire solves the problem, so if you can wait...you can save the cost of the 2-wire switchlinc kit.

 

Eric

 

 

Did you have any luck removing the first fixture? I hate going to the attic.

 

Rand

 

Does it have to be the first fixture, if thats a yes then which is the first fixture, from which end. My fixtures are in a square pattern in the basement ceiling (so no attic )

I was able to pull one of the fittings down and can get at the box which is screwed to the joists. At this stage I haven't got an InlineLink but would you mind explaining exactly how it would all work. Do I use standard 3-way switches and if so how does the dimming work etc..

 

Thank you,

Wayne

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