Aeotec Doorbel instead of Siren for repeater

[gduprey]

Howdy,

 

I'm fiddling with improving my Zwave network reliability and one thing I've read over and over is using the Aeotec Gen5 siren as a repeater.  Not only because it is apparently a strong repeater, but that it also supports security repeating for things like front doors.

 

While I'd be fine sprinkling those around, I'd love to use the newer Aeotec ZWave door bell instead.  Unlike the siren, which I'd never use for anything other than a siren, the doorbell would be useful for announcing some things around the house (possibly even as the doorbell).

 

My questions, to anyone with experience:

 

1) With the ZWave doorbell do the security repeating support like their siren? (i.e. repeat and talk to door locks)

 

2) Does the doorbell offer a strong a repeater as the siren?

 

Thanks!

 

Gerry

[gduprey]

Additional info: I have one of the doorbells and queried it.  Here's what I saw:

 

Also - in addition to the Aeotec siren, I'm wondering if their new ZWave doorbell also will work as a security enabled repeater.  When I queried the one I have, it lists the following

 

Mon 10/10/2016 11:46:05 : [ZW-SHOW         ] ----------------------------------------------
Mon 10/10/2016 11:46:05 : [ZW-SHOW         ] ZW035_1 uid=35 type=4.16.5 mid=134 tid=260 pid=56 model=0
Mon 10/10/2016 11:46:05 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x5E  V0  ZWAVEPLUS_INFO
Mon 10/10/2016 11:46:05 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x86  V0  VERSION
Mon 10/10/2016 11:46:05 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x98  V0  SECURITY
Mon 10/10/2016 11:46:05 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x5A  V0  DEVICE_RESET_LOCALLY
Mon 10/10/2016 11:46:05 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  xEF  V0  MARK
Mon 10/10/2016 11:46:05 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x82  V0  HAIL
Mon 10/10/2016 11:46:05 : [ZW-SHOW         ] 
Mon 10/10/2016 11:46:06 : [ZW-SHOW         ] Node  35 - ZW 035 Siren has the following neighbors
Mon 10/10/2016 11:46:06 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -          - Node   1 - [This ISY]
Mon 10/10/2016 11:46:06 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -          - Node   2 - Front Door Lock
Mon 10/10/2016 11:46:06 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node   5 - First Floor Thermostat
Mon 10/10/2016 11:46:06 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node   7 - Second Floor Thermostat
Mon 10/10/2016 11:46:06 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node   8 - Panel 1 Meter
Mon 10/10/2016 11:46:06 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node   9 - Panel 2 Meter
Mon 10/10/2016 11:46:06 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node  12 - _REPEATER: Master Guest
Mon 10/10/2016 11:46:06 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node  13 - _REPEATER: Sitting Room
Mon 10/10/2016 11:46:06 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node  14 - _REPEATER: Dining Room
Mon 10/10/2016 11:46:06 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node  16 - _REPEATER: Basement
Mon 10/10/2016 11:46:06 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -          - Node  17 - Crawlspace Climate
Mon 10/10/2016 11:46:06 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -          - Node  19 - Back Porch Gate
Mon 10/10/2016 11:46:06 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -          - Node  20 - Outside Climate
Mon 10/10/2016 11:46:06 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -          - Node  21 - Kitchen Climate
Mon 10/10/2016 11:46:06 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -          - Node  23 - Office Climate
Mon 10/10/2016 11:46:06 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -          - Node  26 - Living Room Climate
Mon 10/10/2016 11:46:06 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -          - Node  27 - Dining Room Climate
Mon 10/10/2016 11:46:06 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -          - Node  28 - Master Bath Climate
Mon 10/10/2016 11:46:06 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -          - Node  29 - Attic Climate
Mon 10/10/2016 11:46:06 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -          - Node  30 - TV Room Climate
Mon 10/10/2016 11:46:06 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -          - Node  33 - Screen Porch Door

Does this mean it can be a security-enabled repeater? I see it's showing my front door lock as a neighbor and that seems strongly suggestive that it does.

 

Doesn't answer if they unit is as strong a repeater as the siren though

 

Gerry

[G W]

I'm interested to know the answer.

 

S.A.T.T.P.

Best regards,

Gary Funk

[cyberk]

As am I, I too have heard that the siren is the way to go!

 

I'm currently using Ring Pro without an internal doorbell chime. I had an IFTTT association between Ring and the ISY to chirp my Elk Siren on Ring press, but that was unreliable.

 

I've almost bought the Ring Chime a few times but I keep shying away. If the aotech doorbell can be hard wired to a doorbell, and if it can interact with other aotech doorbells, and be a security repeater to boot! then I would really get a pair of these guys.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[gduprey]

While I'm not yet sure, it appears that the ZWave "base" the doorbell is built on is the same one as in the siren.  As such, it supports security and should have the range boosting abilities of the siren, but in a more useful device (the doorbell can be loaded with up to 100 MP3 files and play them on command, making for a very useful announciator).  I've ordered 5 of them and will deploy them in the next 2 days and test.

 

As delivered, the Zwave doorbell isn't designed to be wired into anything -- it's a complete, stand alone unit. However, if you are slightly handy with a solder iron, you can do this.  I did it for adding other wireless doorbells to my old house. The basic outline is:

 

1) Find a place where the doorbell wire runs that is accessible to you

2) Disconnect the doorbell wire from running to the transformer and any old chime box.  You want a "dry" contact button (no power!).  If in doubt, put a volt meter on the wires and insure there is no power (you will destroy the Zwave doorbell in seconds if there is).

3) Using a solder iron and tools, gently crack open the remote doorbell button from the ZWave doorbell and remove the button.

4) Solder a wire unto each of the two contacts that make up the button.  Use thin, flexible wire (the stuff inside a RJ11 telephone cord is perfect)

5) Close up the button as best you can (not necessary really, just to make it look nice)

6) Use wire nuts to wire the two wires from the Zwave button to the dry, non-powered doorbell wires.

 

Thats it -- your old door bell should now fire off the ZWave doorbell.  If you ever have to move, assuming you've left the old transfomer and chime in tact, just remove the ZWave button and use the wire nuts to connect the doorbell back to it's original wiring.  

 

Make sure the unit is accessible as you'll have to periodically open it up and replace the battery (once a year or so).

 

Gerry

[mwester]

Gerry,

  Thanks for finding this -- I look forward to your results!  As my automation has grown, we've encountered more "alert" conditions than I ever expected -- most of them don't rate setting off the alarm on the Aeon siren, but I would surely appreciate some recorded announcements!  "Hey mwester, the battery on the mudroom door sensor is low", "Hey mwester, the devices in the north bedroom have stopped responding, please check that darned AFCI breaker again"... etc...

[gduprey]

I already have one of the doorbells (for a few months) and have used the ability to fire off commands to play different MP3s successfully.  I even have a script that lets me "program" a doorbell with a standard set of MP3s (not a biggie now, but as I add more, I want them, to all have the same MP3s & MP3 IDs). You really need 5.x in order to do this from an ISY program as you select/play arbitrary MP3s by writing to a parameter value -- something you can do programatically only from 5.x.  You can use the REST interface to play things too under 4.x, but not "resident" ISY programs.  

 

It works well.

 

The only question I have to discover is if the range of the doorbell is comparable to the range of the siren (I've already determined it's both a repeater and a secure repeater (needed for repeating locks and something the standard ZWave repeaters do not do).  Or, at least, greater than the range of the current repeaters.  I'll report back once they are all up and in play.

[G W]

Is this the unit?

 

Aeon Labs ZW056 z-wave doorbell Gen5 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0182XG27Q/ref=cm_sw_r_sms_awd_x_PAp.xbD7VH6Az1

 

S.A.T.T.P.

Best regards,

Gary Funk

[gduprey]

Yep!  Same price as siren, but better functionality.  As long as it's a strong a repeater, it's a good replacement candidate for the siren.

 

Gerry

[G W]

Yep! Same price as siren, but better functionality. As long as it's a strong a repeater, it's a good replacement candidate for the siren.

 

Gerry

I need a new doorbell so this looks good.

 

S.A.T.T.P.

Best regards,

Gary Funk

[gduprey]

One caveat -- the doorbell button is a bit "fussy".  It often will not work if you are holding it (assuming that detunes the transmitter a bit) and doesn't have the greatest range.  I replaced the battery in  mine and re-learned it into the base unit and it's good enough (about as good as my last doorbell) all while leaving it alone on a flat surface when testing and then mounting it.

 

So worth doing those things and test-mounting it to test range before replacing any existing solution.

 

You have to configure a few useful parameters to use it with automation.  In particular, set parameter #80 to 1 to enable reports of the doorbell press that the ISY can react to.  If you use your own custom MP3 rings, you'll want to change the parameter that controls the "repeat count" (defaults to two and fine for "ding dong" sort of default noises, but goofy for voice and/or music playing on use of the doorbell).  All params seem well documented at the http://www.pepper1.net/zwavedb/device site.

 

Gerry

[G W]

Thank you.

 

S.A.T.T.P.

Best regards,

Gary Funk

[cyberk]

I did some research of my own and this looks very promising. However, in order for it to work for me, I need some sort of zwave sensor that will fire off from a contact closure. Basically, I'd want to use my hard wired doorbell to fire off the siren. In this case, my hard wired doorbell is my Ring Pro.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[stusviews]

The only true test is to place a Z-Wave device where it is out-of-range of the ISY.  Then, plug in  a Siren. If the works, then instead of the Siren, plug in the Door Bell device and observe the results.

[gduprey]

I deployed them last night and did a few network heals.  I can't say categorically they worked better, but I have noticed that every ZWave device is claiming all 5 doorbells as their neighbor.  This is a 3,500 sq ft house with about 30 zwave devices (most of which are battery -- pretty much everything except the doorbells).  I had a mix of 7 repeaters before and I know that not all of them were seen by all devices.

 

Since there doesn't appear to be a way to see relative signal strength from each node, I'll have to just go on connectivity and so far, it looks good!

 

Gerry

[cyberk]

I'm mostly Insteon but I had a few zwave devices and needed to strengthen the network...so I bought a bunch of aotec repeaters...I hated them.

 

I got rid of them and bought a bunch of enerwave zwave outlets...a few are giving me issues, waiting for an RMA from enerwave.

 

I'm looking to get at least 2 doorbells to both solve my no chime issue and to strengthen the network. I reached out to a few manufacturers and have some options to get it working

 

Mimolite

-issue is that it only supports a 16V sense, my doorbell is 24v. I could use a resistor to bring that down probably.

 

nexia doorbell sensor

-it's nexia branded....gag

 

I found a few sensors that support a contact closure as a trigger, but I don't think any can support much voltage, especially not 24V.

 

I've also reached out to Aotec for feedback and I've asked them whether or not the doorbell has the same repeating capabilities as the siren.l, including repeating secure signals. Let's see what they say.

 

If anyone has any other ideas on how I can capture my hardwired doorbell button press, to trigger the Zwave doorbell, please let me know.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[stusviews]

I deployed them last night and did a few network heals.  I can't say categorically they worked better, but I have noticed that every ZWave device is claiming all 5 doorbells as their neighbor.  This is a 3,500 sq ft house with about 30 zwave devices (most of which are battery -- pretty much everything except the doorbells).  I had a mix of 7 repeaters before and I know that not all of them were seen by all devices.

 

Since there doesn't appear to be a way to see relative signal strength from each node, I'll have to just go on connectivity and so far, it looks good!

 

Gerry

 

But still absolutely no evidence that the doorbell device functions to repeat the signal as well as the siren. I'm not saying it doesn't, only that there's no proof at all.

[gduprey]

Well, what proof do we have that the sirens are all so good?

 

I know - they have a good rep, but most of us do not have the tools necessary to actually test signal strength.  I don't either.  But as I said, every Zwave device in the house can see all 5 repeaters and I never had that before.  While that is not absolute proof, it is a quantifiably better outcome with better coverage than the old aeotec repeaters I was using.

 

So I'd say there is some evidence that they are at least better than standard repeaters.  I do not have a siren to compare them too.

 

My conclusion, based purely on observing my situation in a pretty good sized home - these things are much stronger than the "standard" repeaters, they support security repeating so they help door locks and, unlike a siren, they also provide an optional but useful day-to-day announcing function.

 

From a practical perspective, I'm sold.

 

Gerry

[gduprey]

I found a few sensors that support a contact closure as a trigger, but I don't think any can support much voltage, especially not 24V.

 

I've also reached out to Aotec for feedback and I've asked them whether or not the doorbell has the same repeating capabilities as the siren.l, including repeating secure signals. Let's see what they say.

 

If anyone has any other ideas on how I can capture my hardwired doorbell button press, to trigger the Zwave doorbell, please let me know.

 

A lot depends on how handy you are with a solder iron and if you want to keep your existing doorbell chime working.  

 

If you do NOT need you existing doorbell chime, I posted a basic outline of what I've done in the past to integrate a wireless doorbell button into existing wiring (post #7 in this thread).  It's important that the existing transformer and chime are not connected to the button, but otherwise about 20 minutes work and fully reversible.

 

If you DO want your existing doorbell chime too, then you step up the complexity a small bit.  You'd basically build a small circuit that had a bridge recitifier, capacitor and a relay.  The recitifiers A/C input is connected in parallel with your existing door chime.  The D/C output is connected to a capacitor (200-1000 mfd should be fine) and to the input of a 24V relay (or use a resistor to knock that voltage down to whatever your relay can handle).  Then relay contacts are then hooked to the wireless doorbell button and you're set.  About an hours work, maybe less, and about $10 in parts.  Again, fully reversible (just remove it and tape over the wires).

 

Gerry

[MWareman]

 

 

If anyone has any other ideas on how I can capture my hardwired doorbell button press, to trigger the Zwave doorbell, please let me know.

DPST relay with a 24VAC coil?

 

Bell push turns the relay coil on momentarily. One of the poles switches 24VAC to your current bell. Second pole drives whatever... (Could be an IOLinc, zwave dry contact device, Elk zone etc...)

 

Been working for me for over a year now.....

[gduprey]

24VAC Relay -- brilliant and even simpler!  I suspect that you can run it in parallel with the doorbell (instead of using a set of contacts for the original doorbell), but either way -- nice and clean.

 

In fact, for about $3, here is a good one: http://www.mouser.com/search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=0virtualkey0virtualkeyRT424524

 

The pins are a little small, but workable. If you want bigger, easier to wire pins, for about $7, this is overkill, but easy to use: http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Omron-Automation-and-Safety/LY2-AC24

 

Both use so little current they could easily be wired in parallel with the existing chime and just use the contacts to close the wireless doorbell button.

 

Gerry

[stusviews]

Well, what proof do we have that the sirens are all so good?

 

The "proof" was easy to establish. I found that communication to my first Schlage lock was unreliable. I added an Aeon repeater to no avail. As soon as I tried the Aeon Siren communication was solid. The Siren was plugged in between the ISY and the lock (ISY--10 ft--Siren--5 ft--lock).  As a further test. I plugged in the Siren more distant from both the lock and ISY (ISY--15 ft--lock--20 ft--Siren). Communication remained fully dependable.

 

As I indicated, a simple test is to place a Z-Wave device out-of-range from the ISY. Add the doorbell device to determine if communication improves. Then test using the Siren. Compare the results.

[cyberk]

I don't think the fact that the siren is the best way to strengthen your Zwave Network is up for debate. Google it, search the forums, there is plenty of evidence from different people and different places, all that prove the fact....

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[gduprey]

I don't think there was anyone trying to debate it.

 

I was trying to humorously respond to the pretty absolute statement that there "absolutely no evidence" the doorbell worked as well as the siren.  I don't believe I've seen anyone who has ZWave RF strength meters reporting here about the siren, just empirical reports (and a fair number of them) that things got better with the sirens.

 

Which is great!  But the evidence is just a bunch stories of people reporting their success and that was all I was doing as well - Just reporting a success.

 

All I can report is that the doorbells appear, from a cursory examination, to be built on a similar hardware base and that with them in place, all of my nodes can see all of my repeaters and that was not the case before.  I didn't have sirens installed so I can't directly compare.  But demonstrably, things are stronger than they were (or the pretty dramatic difference in neighbor node visibility wouldn't be seen).  I feel that's at least as much evidence as anyone elses story about using the sirens successfully.

 

Gerry

[stusviews]

I don't disagree that the doorbell improved communication. That many others indicated that the Siren improved communication is valid evidence. Nearly all "proof" is based on experimental evidence. Drugs, for example, have ingredient that are quantifiable, but the evidence that they work (or don't) can be gained only through experiments.

 

That's also true about Alpha and Beta testing. But, the only way to compare is to use both products in the same situation. For all I know, the doorbell may be an even better repeater than is the Siren