Scene Control aka Manage a Scene

[CoolToys]

I am using an ISY 994i.  Recently I upgraded to 4.5.4.

 

Maybe I have been in the biz way too long, but didn't we used to be able to set the devices for each scene uniquely?

 

When I select a Scene, the space below the device status window, does not show the devices.

 

Only when I select a controller in the scene can I change the device on levels individually.  I have the option to "copy scene attributes from XXXX" 

 

The question is, how do I set the attributes for the Scene?

 

I would like the ISY to set the scene "Night" at a certain event trigger like sunset for instance.

 

All of the devices in the scene come on to 100% when the ISY triggers it, and at normal levels when I use either "night" button on Keypadlinc's.

 

Each of the controller/responders allows for individual settings which seems even more odd.  The scene "Night" should have one setting regardless of the ISY activating the scene or either of the two keypads in the house activating the scene.

 

I have had X-10, Lutron, Crestron and Insteon in my homes for over 20 years, all either installed by me or a company I owned, and the ISY is just making this way harder than it needs to be.  In many ways the insteon hub is smarter, and I can't figure out why anyone would do this.  

 

My request is to eliminate the ability to have each controller set a scene uniquely, and make the scene a "hard scene" meaning no matter how it is activated, it sets at the same levels.  All controllers make the same thing happen.  With that, when a scene is selected in the Admin Console, all of the devices should list in the lower half on the right side of the screen as it does now when a controller/responder is selected.

 

If I want a "50% night scene" and a "100% night scene", I can simply copy the scene, change controllers and change the levels in the new scene.

 

Thank you in advance for your consideration of my request.

[stusviews]

If I want a "50% night scene" and a "100% night scene", I can simply copy the scene, change controllers and change the levels in the new scene.

 

I do that now. In fact, I have a kitchen dim scene (10%), bright scent (100%) and light (50%) scene. Only the light scene has an Insteon device as a  controller, Albeit, I had to create each scene separately. A copy command would be useful.

[oberkc]

When I select a Scene, the space below the device status window, does not show the devices.

 

Did you click on the little "+" sign next to the scene?

 

The question is, how do I set the attributes for the Scene?

 

 

On my admin console, if I select the scene, itself, I can set the responder levels.  I wonder why yours does not do this.  Is it possible you have a mismatch software version for the OS and User Interface?

 

Eliminating the ability to set different levels for different controllers in a scene can (and will, in my estimation) create unnecessary complications under certain conditions.  Besides, I suspect that is built-in to insteon.  Furthermore, I don't think forcing the same responder levels for all controllers does not help solve your problem.   Besides, I suspect this is all built-in to insteon and cannot be changed by the ISY. 

 

Like stusviews suggested, simply create two scenes, all with the same devices.  If you are controlling any scene exclusively via program, no controller need be identified.

 

Alternatively, you can set responder levels also by program.  If you want a scene to respond differently based upon time, this can be done.

[CoolToys]

Thank you for the ideas.

 

I was using an older UI, but now have it updated.  It didn't help.

 

I have now lost the ability to control click a scene and copy it so I have to build several scenes for each set of devices.

 

With the new UI when I click a scene I still do not get a list of devices to set levels as I recall I used to.  Maybe I need to try a PC?

 

I have tried to set levels by program and found it to be way less reliable than using programs to trigger scenes.

[stusviews]

The ISY does not have the ability to copy a scene, only a program.  Selecting a scene should show a list of all devices in that scene. Clicking on the + to the right of the scene name should allow you to select an individual device.

 

What is you firmware? your UI? (Help, About)

[CoolToys]

UI 4.5.4

Firmware 4.5.4

 

Since upgrading the UI, I can no longer control anything via the administrative console.  I can query.

 

The sunset program didn't run, so I am going to reboot the ISY.

 

On the good side is that I am down to one Keypadlinc that isn't working.  Everything else is working perfectly including Mobilinc.  

 

 

Go Figure...

 

For some reason I thought we could copy scenes in an older version. Maybe a competitor does it, again too many years doing this stuff so the "new ideas" just seem ridiculous sometimes.

[CoolToys]

More playing around.... I find that if I remove all "controllers" then I can set the scene the way I want.  The devices appear in a list when I select the scene.  

 

Once I do this, then re-add the controllers it works the way I want.  Sorry this "feature" makes no sense to me. I should be able to have the controllers in the "group" aka "scene", and be able to set the default scene setting.  

 

I get it that UDI calls groups "scenes" and they aren't really scenes like a Crestron, but why not?  This is a simple logic tweak that makes sense.  The program, the buttons or my phone should all make my home look the same when I select "night".

[stusviews]

The terminology was created by Insteon. For several years group was synonymous with scenes. (Insteon has dropped the term groups as scenes seemed more appropriate, the Amazon Alexa app prefers groups) Terminology varies between programming languages and trades. Even among trades, terminology can be different depending on the area. But, none of that should be a deterrent. The "better" term is nearly always the opinion based on what was learned first

 

 

The program, the buttons or my phone should all make my home look the same when I select "night".

 

Only if the program, button or your phone executes identical statements. That's expected if you're sticking with one protocol/programming language such as Insteon. Mixing programming languages nearly always requires using different instructions to achieve the same result.

[CoolToys]

What I want is simple and I'll list it first for UDI to read quickly, and I'll explain afterwards.

 

*******************The Change Requests:

1. When a scene is selected in the left column of the Administrative Console Window, all listed devices should be in the right column in a "live adjustment mode".  

 

"Live Adjustment Mode" means that I can adjust via slider or direct entry the level of each device individually for that "scene", not the on level of the device.

 

Seeing "Current Level" in the top right of the Administrative Console, is helpful, but also a "scene level" that can be set would be better.

 

Currently I have to individually select the device from the left column and set each device then select the next one.  Time killer, non-intuitive.  Further, I can not set the scene levels, only the "on levels".   If I change the on level in the scene, the on level for the device changes too?

 

2. A controller should not have the ability to change the scene.  i.e. two keypadlinc buttons in different locations should activate the "scene" in the same way.  If I want on button to make the front porch 100% and the other to make it 50%, those should be two different scenes.

 

Along with this I would request the ability to copy a scene, so this can be done quickly and effeciently.

 

***********************End of Change Request

 

Unlike what you guys are saying, I can not set a group of devices to a certain level via a "scene".  I can set the individual device on levels and when the scene activates then all devices come on at that level.  When I create a program to do certain things, they don't trigger right, and still trying to learn why that changed as well.  i.e. when motion is a controller for a light, when motion times out, light goes out.  I have tried variables and timers from old forum posts and since updating to 4.5.1 they no longer work.  4.5.4 hasn't helped.

 

My old "program" that ran fine was an event like time, sunset or motion, would activate a "scene".  Now those events are just activating the devices.  Much simpler logic and way less than system is capable of.  Now I have to list all of the devices when the trigger occurs, reliability is lower.  Random lights aren't coming on, if I have multiple "wait" in the same program, the program stops at the second one.  Regardless of my notes below, using "waits" in scenes to make the house look less automated and more like a person walking through turning on lights is (was) something I liked.  That is now out. The whole house goes POOF and lights are on.  Feels less natural to me but it is working for now.

 

Back to this thread.

 

My opinion why for the requests above.

 

Humans are very simple, while there are a few people who want their homes to do all kinds of crazy lighting, my experience is that 90% of the time, there are five simple "Scenes" that people want when lighting a home.

 

For my purposes here, I will define a "scene" as a fixed group of lights individually set at a specific level, thus creating a very specific visual "feel" for the house.  I am not a "lighting designer" but have spent a lot of time studying how light effects us.  My background is Stanford GSB network engineering (before ethernet), Apple Computer and then self employed in the home automation and home theater world.  Now host a web show about tech and toys.

 

Regardless of whether we installed Insteon, X-10, Lutron or Crestron.  The same five scenes were always set up, and occasionally one or two more at a customers request.  With 20 years of data, I can tell you that the "custom" scenes were so rarely used that making individual light changes would be easier.  Many times they resulted in a service call for re-training the customer.

 

 

Stusviews said "Only if the program, button or your phone executes identical statements". That's expected if you're sticking with one protocol/programming language such as Insteon. Mixing programming languages nearly always requires using different instructions to achieve the same result."  

 

That is thinking way too deep, All I am asking for on that part is that when I hit "night" on my Controlinc by the bed (sad those got discontinued), a keypadlinc in the kitchen, mobilinc on my iPhone or the program runs on the ISY, the house should always look the same way.  I should always feel like it is "night" at my house when "night" is set.  I get it that the lights in "night" scene are not truly a scene, but just a group.  If I can't set a scene level, cross linking appears to be the only reason for the scene.  

 

That said, Stusviews and OberKC you did help.  While I respectfully disagree that eliminating the controllers ability to set a scene at different levels will complicate things, the idea to take the "controllers" out of the scene was helpful in getting the scenes where I want to go.  I ended up creating a program called "night" and then using the triggers to run the program.  Many more steps than needed if we could make the change I requested above.

 

OberKC, I think that if two separate scenes are used as Stusview said, and one controller assigned to each via a program, it solves both of our concerns.   For now I still only have two groups of devices, not a true "scene".  

 

While Stusview, thinks my terms are what I learned first, I consider the term "Scene" as I defined it to be industry standard.  Lutron, Crestron, AMX, and even X-10 defined scenes this way.  I still think that UDI once did have scenes with an ability to set levels seperately, otherwise my old program logic wouldn't have worked.  Snack and Night would turn the device "stairwell" on at the same level if Snack and Night were "Scenes".  They weren't but are now.

 

I believe that it would be easier for the user, more reliable, and more intuitive to our human mind if "night" always sets "night" exactly the same.  

 

That said, I do have a "home night" and "away night" scene.  Certain needed interior lights are not turned on when I am away to save energy.  Both scenes work at random times if not user selected via button or mobilinc first.  Some days the "random" feature waits just a bit too long when we are home so having buttons is nice.  If I come home when "away night" is active, "home night" runs to adjust accordingly.  Simple logic, effective results.  And yes my wife is now addicted to lighting control too.  This week while troubleshooting has made her nuts.

 

From my time at Apple, I learned that choice is difficult for most people.  The Boss' big goal of make it easy was ingrained into me very early and I carry that in all of my work now.  Simple elegance always beats complicated in the market. The key is to hide the complication.

 

More than three choices and indecision levels begin to rapidly rise.  The same proved true while building lighting systems.  The more choices, the less the people liked it six months later.  Hence the reason we went to five standard scenes, one of which is totally automatic, narrowing choices to four, and the fourth can be automatic in some cases.

 

The scenes we used, and these came to me via discussion with my friends at Lutron and Crestron, this isn't my own genius here.  It is years of them watching big systems in "learning" mode.   They are listed in order of use and named by how I see them.

 

Yes I already see the response "But what about...."  This is for the 90% of the world that just wants stuff to work, not a dealer, hobbyist or enthusiast which I assume is what everyone here is.  

 

Night - most people will set the house up the same way every day.  Once they know that lights will go off on their own, they stop getting fidgety about it.  Also crime stats indicate that automatic lighting is as effective as an alarm in burglary deterrent if the house looks lived in.

 

Snack - sometimes called night light, usually a motion only scene that lights a dim path from the bedrooms to bathrooms and the kitchen.

 

Movie - A mostly dark house with a dim path to the bathrooms and kitchens.  In my house Movie is nearly black with motions to activate path lighting if someone leaves the media room or living room for a snack.

 

Morning - for those early risers who just need to get dressed, get a cup of coffee and head out without waking everyone 

 

Alarm - Basically an All On that does not turn on anything in the master bedroom, blinding a potential intruder, and letting the homeowner adjust to the lighting without being easy to see.  I have seen this used less than a dozen times, but every one seems to feel good having it.  With a connected alarm, this can be automatic also thus reducing the user choices to three.

 

My request to change how the Administrative Console works in the beginning is simply a request to make the "programming" interface match what the system can do and eliminate a step or bunch of steps when setting a large scene.  I have other issues, but they are mostly insteon related, like needing to open up my motion and door sensors every time I reprogram something related to them and sending out refurb product in a new four pack that is locking up.

 

Right now it is working 97%, by using programs to create what I call scenes and just using scenes as a cross linking management tool.  There are still bugs with programs not running or some lights not coming on but that may be due to the refurb 2477D that is still in my system and causing problems.  Waiting for the replacement.  

 

Thank you again for the help guys.

[oberkc]

1. Your request suggests (to me) that you want to use the administrative console to provide real-time control of your house. I do not view that as the purpose of the admin console.

 

I view the console as something I use to create scenes and programs. If I desire to control my house, I will use switches, keypads, the dashboard, or an app. The console needs, in my mind, to favor efficiency in the creation of scenes over efficiency of manual control of devices within scenes.

 

2. One can, of course, choose to create scenes in such a way. In fact, the ISY provides a little button to assist in making all responder levels in a scene the same for all controllers.

 

In the end, I am one that values flexibility over simplicity. I get frustrated more by companies that reduces choices. While I agree that simple and elegant is valuable in the marketplace, they are deciding factors only when all other things are equal. If simple and elegant come at the cost of choice and flexibility, simple and elegant loses in my world.

 

And...while you may disagree about the relationship between eliminating controllers and complicating things...I am involved in a couple of current threads where, should your suggestions come to be, it would result in the need to create four scenes where one is currently adequate. For me, the ability to minimize numbers of scenes and programs is a form of simplixity itself.

 

Also, yes, I suppose I am more of a hobbyist. My goal has been to create a lighting system that is automated (requires minimal manual ntervention) and intuitive where automation fails. The admin panel is never used in the normal operation of my sysyem.

 

I appreciate the interesting discussion.

[CoolToys]

oberkc - I am very curious about your setup and your goals with your system.

 

I guess I am not being clear.  I do not want to use the admin panel for control of the system.  And yes I am biased in my views from having programmed and lived with much bigger systems.

 

All I want to do is make a "Scene" a true Scene and be able to set it on one screen.

 

Right now, with 4.5.4.  If I change the "on level" of my stairwell to 50%, then every scene with "Stairwell" can only set the stairwell lights to 50%.  There is only one "on level" available to me.  The ISY has way more horsepower, and I am not sure how you are setting things so that one button activates a "scene" that comes on at different levels based on which button is pushed.  We clearly have different UI's.

 

My work around has been to create "stairwell" as a group for the two devices, replacing the old 3-way switch setup.  Then I use different programs to set the level of the two devices directly.  The only thing the scene appears to give me is the ability to have the master or slave set the led level to the correct spot when manually set.  In the programs if I set the master to 50% the slave still indicates off.  The program individually sets both to 50% to solve the issue.  Setting the master first appears to work more reliably, I don't know or care why, it just does.  

 

I define a scene as a specific set of lights set to a specific level given a specific event.  I get it that UDI does not.  They should call it groups as they did in the past.

 

For Example,

 

When "night" scene is "on" 

Stairwell 50%

Stairwell Slave 50%

Front Porch 30%

Hallway 50%

Kitchen Under Cabinet 100%

Curio On.

 

When "Snack" scene is "on"

Stairwell 30%

Stairwell slave 30%

Curio On

 

Now I can not do this with "scenes", only a program since I can only set "Stairwell" to one level.  And there is about a .25 second difference in activation time between a motion sensor triggering a scene vs a program.  Just long enough to make it noticeable.

 

I am starting to think the random failings of the program are related to the defective 2477D I added earlier in the week.  

 

I too appreciate the discussion and ideas.

[oberkc]

I agree, it sounds as if your UI is not working like mine. When I select a scene, the included devices are listed immediately below (press the little +). Devices in red are the controllers of that scene. When one of the controller devices is selected, one can then define the responder levels unique to the selected controller. I cannot imagine, however, why yours would be any different.

 

I believe one can define responder levels at the scene level, then choose an option to apply those same levels to all controllers in the scene. This sounds to me similar to that for which you lobby.

 

I have several scenes in my house that work much like you describe. For example, I have an evening scene that can be triggered by a program, or by several keypad buttons throughout the house. Regardless of how triggered, all responders come on to the same levels, by design. I don't generally use programs to trigger scenes for two reasons. First, there is a noticeable delay when using programs as an intermediary. Second, scenes still work should there be a failure with the ISY or PLM.

 

In your example regarding "night" versus "snack", I am not sure that I follow your belief that this cannot be done with a scene(s). I think a scene is exactly how I would do this...one night scene and a second snack scene. Are you triggering these scenes from a motion sensor, based also upon time of day? This could also be done via a single scene, but I would use two in this case.

[CoolToys]

Yes and I think that is how mine used to work. I made the mistake of adding switches and upgrading firmware all at once and the system went stupid.  

 

What UI/Firmware are you using?

 

I have confirmed if I change a device in one scene, it changes the "on level" for that device in all scenes the device is in and the device at the device itself.  I think this is new.  So now if "snack" sets hallway to 30%, then a single tap on the dimmer sets that light to 30%.  This has got to be a bug.

 

If I change the level of the hallway lights in the "night" "scene", and select hallway lights in the "snack" "scene", it has changed to mirror it.  Just odd.

 

The workaround is to use a program, but then I don't get button feedback the way I used too.  If I have a "snack" button on a keypad linc that activates the group of lights in the "snack" scene, and then shut off the group in that scene from another button the "snack" button on the keypad remains illuminated.  The next time I press "snack" it is "off" and nothing else happens.  So now I have some scenes with buttons and other buttons with no feedback to let me know the scene is active.  

 

Totally goofy.... UDI are you reading this?

[G W]

 

 

Yes and I think that is how mine used to work. I made the mistake of adding switches and upgrading firmware all at once and the system went stupid.

 

What UI/Firmware are you using?

Did you also update the Admin Console to 4.5.4? What versions are shown in About?

 

I'm Gary Funk. Pay no attention to this message.

[stusviews]

KC10Brain,

 

You seem to be expecting one protocol to imitate a different protocol that you've programmed with. A scene in one protocol can and does have a different meaning in another. It's very important that you be thoroughly familiar with Insteon, its capabilities (which is, in some areas, considerable greater than others) and its limitations. Especially be concerned with scenes/groups.

 

Try here: http://cache.insteon.com/pdf/insteondetails.pdf

 

and here: http://cache.insteon.com/pdf/INSTEONCompared.pdf

 

here, too: http://www.insteon.com/technology/

 

I'm in no way disagreeing with your request.

[CoolToys]

Stu's View - Yes I get insteon all the way to bit level programming.  My apologies for my lengthy response.

 

Things I think should be basic are not.  Insteon does not require a "controller/responder" for a scene only a controller which can be as simple as an old X-10 clock.

 

UDI does not have an option for controller only in the ISY when building a scene.  Insteon allows this, and I think for good reason.

 

Additionally, I am pretty sure looking at old back ups that a Controller/Responder was not always required for a scene to work from the ISY directly.  Now it is for sure.  My house started working differently since upgrading to 4.x.x. and more so at 4.5.4.  The changes are minor on the surface, but major when you have a multi person household.  If you have to train someone in the house to use the system or explain why buttons that say the same thing do something different, that is bad design.  It should be simple and intuitive when the system is complete and at the admin console while creating it.

 

More reading of manuals, update notes and playing with the software, I figured out some things.  

 

I know I can set the controller/responders within the scene to set the levels discretely from the device itself.  Again this isn't what I am asking for, and thank you oberkc for pointing out that two controllers in the same "scene" can make the "scene" do different things.  This is due to the Insteon term "group" which ISY abandoned and switched to "scene".  Group makes more sense given how this works and it does not take full advantage of insteon capabilities.  An ISY has the power to turn a "group" into a "scene" instead of just changing the name.

 

As a programmer, this "feature" fails basic logic, but I see how some could like it.  As Stusview basically, said earlier if the ISY is your first system, then it is what you know and like.

 

If I press "night" in my bedroom and it sets the group of devices at a certain level, and activates the "night" button in my hallway this is an inconsistent logic tree unless both do exactly the same thing is there not?

 

After one of the buttons is pressed, how do you know which lights should be set where?  Did I press the downstairs "night" light, and get the 30% settings or the upstairs and get the 90% settings.  If the 30% button is labeled  "snack" that would make sense but the "night" button on the controller which selects the brighter setting will appear to be "on" as it is also a responder.  This makes no sense, hence my interest in oberkc's system..

 

UDI can make the system more consistent, and for dealers who are installing systems, easier to maintain by either changing terms, or eliminating the requirement to have buttons act as "controller/responders"only in the same group at the same time or ideally both.  

 

Now in the case of the snack v night light in the same scene, you have to create a program to query the other controller/responder and change it, which makes sense if you don't mind the extra keystrokes.  This way when you press night, if snack is already active, the lights get brighter and the snack light goes out.  Troubleshooting nightmare in my book, but if you like it, ok, I'll yield and quit asking UDI to "fix" it.

 

IF,  as is being asked in another thread,  UDI followed the Insteon Protocol where a button could be a controller only without being a responder, then I could see this current system making more sense.  The exact same lights could come on at 30% for "snack" and 50% for "night" and the night button would not light up the snack button and vice versa.  Again thank you oberkc for bringing up this point.  The trouble though within the UDI programming would be how to turn off the two buttons.  i.e., I turn on snack, my wife wants it brighter and selects night.  Now both buttons are illuminated.  When I select snack again, what happens?  How is the button marked night turned off?  With both as controller responders they both go off.  But if I don't know my wife selected night and I see the light brighter than expected, I am not happy.  A query program might fix it.  I'll work on that another day.

 

System feedback matters.  

 

Just this week I looked at a system for an electrician and a button was remaining lit.  He used a program to turn on the "scene" and when he used the "all off" button, the keypadlinc remained lit.  Minor, but important to the buyer and the electrician tired of the "nuisance calls", he wondered why the customer even cared.  I agree with the customer.  If the "stairs" button is lit, the stairs light should be on (or off depending on how you set up the keypadlinc) in direct relationship with the device it is controlling.   This was an insteon hub install so it took about 5 minutes to fix.  With an ISY, it would have been more difficult because UDI does not follow all of the insteon protocols and leverage all of its features.

 

From a professional point of view, what I am saying is that UDI terminology and programming isn't consistent with industry standards, nor Insteon standards.  It may be why many larger dealers choose to move up to the bigger names like Lutron or Crestron.  When I leave a customers house, the stuff has got to be bullet proof and can't give them a reason to call me.  And trust me after a year, the house will sell and the buyer will say WTF is this thing doing?   A pro never wants to get a call to train a home buyer, real estate agent, guest or visiting family member how to use a "system".

 

If both buttons say night and the "scene" reacts exactly the same like it does with an insteon hub for instance, no additional service calls or family confusion.

 

Just trying to keep it simple and utilize all of the capabilities insteon has.  Truth be told, I am to cheap to buy another Lutron, and an insteon can do everything a lutron can do except vacation learn.  The ISY is the limiting factor, not Insteon.  I am asking UDI to fix it without me writing 46 query programs, one for each button and device on my system.  That is the workaround I came up with today and it isn't playing nice with older things like my controlinc.  Which I very much like for the size, and ease of tactile use.

 

Finally if there isn't a controller in the scene, the scene is limited to the default on settings when a program activates the scene.  Of my five scenes, three do not need a controller, only an event trigger.  I should never have to push a "night" button.  I have one to see the system is working.  I believe this to be a reasonably easy correction for UDI and it is my first request to correct before my second request of adding the ability to have a button be a controller only.  

 

As Oberkc said, I just want things to work.  I don't ever want to touch a switch and even in my crazy world, I can make my house do what we want it to do just by living our lives and never touching a switch once you get used to not turning lights off yourself.  My family and friends all understand my house and have never asked "how do I" or "What's it doing now?"  It just works. Ok worked, I almost have it back together.

 

Thank you guys for the conversation, but I have my answer and just want UDI to make those two changes.

[oberkc]

I turn on snack, my wife wants it brighter and selects night.  Now both buttons are illuminated.  When I select snack again, what happens?  How is the button marked night turned off?

 

This is a pretty common problem that can be handled.  Snack button should be set to zero ON level in response to night button, and vice versa.

 

Now in the case of the snack v night light in the same scene, you have to create a program to query the other controller/responder and change it, which makes sense if you don't mind the extra keystrokes.  This way when you press night, if snack is already active, the lights get brighter and the snack light goes out.

No program needed.  Do this through a scene.

 

If I press "night" in my bedroom and it sets the group of devices at a certain level, and activates the "night" button in my hallway this is an inconsistent logic tree unless both do exactly the same thing is there not?

Possibly inconsistent, unless you want it to mean something different.  My point...one is free to make bedroom and hallway buttons do the same if wanted.  One can make them do different things if wanted.  Why limit the flexibility for those who want to use it in ways different than you?

 

Could different terms (groups, scenes, whatever) be used and be more clear?  Maybe.  A "controller only" option?  Makes no difference to me, personally (I could adapt).  I remain uncertain that these changes would allow me to do anything different or easier than what I do now or what I want to do. 

[larryllix]

From the description of the request, ISY does it exactly like that and always has.

 

This is the way Insteon scenes work, as presets, and ISY has only made management of the system/style easier. Scenes were not created to be modified on the fly from Insteon devices and all devices using that scene get the same response levels and ramps from the same devices, each and every time, unless the scene is changed.

 

Scenes can contain responders and controllers. Just add them to the scene in the admin console and it sends the new profile into the all  devices listed in the scene.

 

There appears to be a lot of confusion, and maybe excitement, in this thread and it appears to be mostly based on lack of understanding of how Insteon Scenes work. Perhaps this is just how the information is laid out in text, here.

 

Responses to managing scenes, from the admin console, appear to be giving instructions how to adjust device's local values and not scene values whatsoever. 

 

In the end, I don't see  any requested feature that isn't the status quo already. ISY can't  control how Insteon scenes work.

 

Copying a scene would make a nice feature, but for the few times it would have been used in three years the drag and drop technique in admin console is fairly easy and the level adjustments would need to be done anyway or a new scene was a waste of time

[PurdueGuy]

Finally if there isn't a controller in the scene, the scene is limited to the default on settings when a program activates the scene.  Of my five scenes, three do not need a controller, only an event trigger.  I should never have to push a "night" button.  I have one to see the system is working.  I believe this to be a reasonably easy correction for UDI and it is my first request to correct before my second request of adding the ability to have a button be a controller only.  

 

The comment about "the scene is limited to the default on setting when a program activates the scene" isn't true.

Default On = level a light/dimmer goes to when activated manually (for example 70%)

The scene level (when trigged by ISY) can be any level (for example 45%).   If the scene has multiple controllers, each controller can set the light to a different level (one to 60%, another to 100%, etc).

[CoolToys]

The comment about "the scene is limited to the default on setting when a program activates the scene" isn't true.

Default On = level a light/dimmer goes to when activated manually (for example 70%)

The scene level (when trigged by ISY) can be any level (for example 45%).   If the scene has multiple controllers, each controller can set the light to a different level (one to 60%, another to 100%, etc).

 

I'd like to know how. 

 

The scene level can not be set unless the scene has a controller.  The ISY itself is not a controller.  I have tried it, and verified it with multiple tests.  

 

If I have a scene with no controller, none of the devices show in the scene settings.  Only when a controller is selected to I have the option to change a device level.

 

If I directly select a device in the scene and change the level there, the default on level is changed to match.  

 

Thus, I can not have the ISY trigger "snack" and "night" scenes and set the hallway lights to a different level.  

 

The options I have determined are: 1. add a controller/responder to each scene or 2. change the scene into a program and add each device individually to the program, but with that you can't have any feedback.

 

Again, I think the ISY could set device levels in a scene without changing default levels in the past, and regardless I would like this feature added along with adding the ability to make a button a controller only.

[CoolToys]

From the description of the request, ISY does it exactly like that and always has.

 

This is the way Insteon scenes work, as presets, and ISY has only made management of the system/style easier. Scenes were not created to be modified on the fly from Insteon devices and all devices using that scene get the same response levels and ramps from the same devices, each and every time, unless the scene is changed.

 

Scenes can contain responders and controllers. Just add them to the scene in the admin console and it sends the new profile into the all  devices listed in the scene.

 

There appears to be a lot of confusion, and maybe excitement, in this thread and it appears to be mostly based on lack of understanding of how Insteon Scenes work. Perhaps this is just how the information is laid out in text, here.

 

Responses to managing scenes, from the admin console, appear to be giving instructions how to adjust device's local values and not scene values whatsoever. 

 

In the end, I don't see  any requested feature that isn't the status quo already. ISY can't  control how Insteon scenes work.

 

Copying a scene would make a nice feature, but for the few times it would have been used in three years the drag and drop technique in admin console is fairly easy and the level adjustments would need to be done anyway or a new scene was a waste of time

 

I am not sure how to reply to this, you are correct I think , When you say "insteon scenes" do you mean ISY Scenes? or Insteon Scenes?  They don't have to be the same thing.

 

Yes the ISY has made it simpler, but YES the ISY could set scene levels very easily without a controller by acting as the controller.  How hard would it be to add random false addresses to the ISY so it can be a controller and therefore set commanded scene levels.  Now I can have a program trigger a scene without needing another controller in the system.

 

That is my request.  Probably won't happen. 

[G W]

Maybe you need to email support your concerns.

 

I'm Gary Funk and I approved this message.

[CoolToys]

Maybe you need to email support your concerns.

 

I'm Gary Funk and I approved this message.

Done,  Just wanted to see if there was something I was missing first.  

 

Thank you again for your insights and ideas.

 

 

S

[PurdueGuy]

I'd like to know how. 

 

The scene level can not be set unless the scene has a controller.  The ISY itself is not a controller.  I have tried it, and verified it with multiple tests.  

 

If I have a scene with no controller, none of the devices show in the scene settings.  Only when a controller is selected to I have the option to change a device level.

The ISY is always a controller.  It will not show up as a controller in the list.  You adjust it by clicking on scene name, and setting the levels there.

 

Can you post a screen capture of the Admin Console when you have the scene name selected?   It will be similar to the picture here:  http://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=ISY-99i/ISY-26_INSTEON:Scene&redirect=no#Scenes

 

As other stated, emailing support might be a be faster/better option.

[stusviews]

I'd like to know how. 

 

The scene level can not be set unless the scene has a controller.  The ISY itself is not a controller.  I have tried it, and verified it with multiple tests.  

 

If I have a scene with no controller, none of the devices show in the scene settings.  Only when a controller is selected to I have the option to change a device level.

 

If I directly select a device in the scene and change the level there, the default on level is changed to match.  

 

Thus, I can not have the ISY trigger "snack" and "night" scenes and set the hallway lights to a different level.  

 

The options I have determined are: 1. add a controller/responder to each scene or 2. change the scene into a program and add each device individually to the program, but with that you can't have any feedback.

 

Again, I think the ISY could set device levels in a scene without changing default levels in the past, and regardless I would like this feature added along with adding the ability to make a button a controller only.

 

That's correct. There's no provision in the Insteon protocol for setting a scene level. Devices within the scene, however, can have their levels set and each can be set to a different level if desired, including off. And each device in the scene can be a responder only. There is no requirement that a member of the scene be a controller.