Lights "flash" every 30 seconds to 1 minute.

[apostolakisl]

I had a house full of Cree LEDs (ceiling cans with 2-6 bulbs on each switch) that I just bought before starting my HA endeavor that were flashing with Insteon traffic. I was sooo frustrated that I just spent $1500 on light bulbs that would need to be replaced. However, I found that if I replaced just one bulb on each switch with a different LED bulb then it stopped. I validated this several times so it wasn't just a single happenstance. I picked a bulb that matched brightness and color and didn't do any "compatibility" testing.

That is not a problem I have had.  Although I had some 100watt eq Cree A19's that would flicker a little from time to time.  Perhaps Insteon traffic was the cause, but if it was, it was not obviously the cause.

[larryllix]

So one has to ask is anyone going to bother with the warranty exchange? Most of the warranties state you must offer the sales receipt, UPC code, and ship the item on your dime.

 

Given most of us can find a decent LED bulb now for about $2-8.XX is the cost for postage, time, aggravation worth it? Speaking for myself only if I had a whole box that might be worth it because it would be a one shot deal. But to send in one single bulb at a Canada Post rate of at least $12.XX not even worth the time or effort never mind fuel! 

Sure $2-3 now, but most of us OCD buyers paid $10-$40 dollars for some of these bulbs then.  Fair dinkum?

 

Go shopping for a BR-40 bulb to fill your pot desires fixtures. They are still $20-$40 each.

[apostolakisl]

Sure $2-3 now, but most of us OCD buyers paid $10-$40 dollars for some of these bulbs then.  Fair dinkum?

 

Go shopping for a BR-40 bulb to fill your pot desires fixtures. They are still $20-$40 each.

don't buy a br-40.  Get a CR-6.  It looks better and I can vouch for the CR-6.  I have many years of service with many many fixtures and no failures.  My assumption is that they don't fail because they have a much better heat sink.  That and I think Cree wasn't going for the basement price tag that HD is squeezing them into.  I got my for roughly $35/ea but that was several years ago and I was buying them by the case.

[larryllix]

don't buy a br-40.  Get a CR-6.  It looks better and I can vouch for the CR-6.  I have many years of service with many many fixtures and no failures.  My assumption is that they don't fail because they have a much better heat sink.  That and I think Cree wasn't going for the basement price tag that HD is squeezing them into.  I got my for roughly $35/ea but that was several years ago and I was buying them by the case.

Thanks.

 

These were bought a year or so ago. They were not Cree, but maybe Luminus? from Costco online. 3000K and 27 watts.

A lot of light and never had a problem with a bulb yet that wasn't CREE.

 

IIRC they came delivered for around $25 each if you ordered two at a time. That's about half the price of the CR-6 and they sit deeper so they don't glare in your eyes as much. I tried two and after the better part of a year bought another four. Then they came out with an equivalent in 500K that I put over my Kitchen bar in the same room. despite the K difference it is not noticed in the same room.

 

These dim nicely to about 10% and are mostly used dimmed. With eight of these BR-40s, five Hue bulbs, five 60W euqiv. over the dining area table, four RGBWW strips, and four MiLight 9W bulbs, the double tap up makes this room like an operating theatre room. Very nice for grey days, which we get a lot of and it mostly fixes the SADs.

 

Other times, the TV and movie scenes are awesome with dimmed white BR40s overhead, and ful bright colours all around the room. I have created a colour theme for every occasion and I dim down on the main switchLinc (that controls everything) gets the festive colour mix of the festive season.

 

Another one I always forget about is my sunset theme. White lights start fairly bright with sunset colours around the room. Then an extended ramp over the next hour and half, dim the whites down until they go out at about 8%, leaving just the oranges and reds around the perimeter.

[shannong]

That is not a problem I have had.  Although I had some 100watt eq Cree A19's that would flicker a little from time to time.  Perhaps Insteon traffic was the cause, but if it was, it was not obviously the cause.

 

For me it was definitely Insteon traffic causing the flashing. I had zero flashing before installing Insteon and they all flashed in sync across multiple switches and circuits after installing Insteon. I could induce the flashing by purposefully creating a lot of Insteon traffic such as restoring a device.

[apostolakisl]

One more failure to add.  Cree BR30 installed 9/20/14.  Used about 8 hours per day.  That's about 7,000 hours.  roughly 1/4 of advertised 25,000 hours.  Bulb is in an open ceiling can in an air conditioned space with an on/off switch (not dimmer).  Can't get much kinder to a bulb than that.

[Teken]

One more failure to add. Cree BR30 installed 9/20/14. Used about 8 hours per day. That's about 7,000 hours. roughly 1/4 of advertised 25,000 hours. Bulb is in an open ceiling can in an air conditioned space with an on/off switch (not dimmer). Can't get much kinder to a bulb than that.

Unfortunately most manufacturers base the life expectancy of their product only on three hours per day use.

 

As seen here Luminus and every other brand I have State the same thing!

 

 

So if we round up your eight hours to nine. That is triple the daily hours used which comes close to the makers claim.

 

Keeping in mind if we use their unrealistic 3 hour per day max!

[larryllix]

One more failure to add.  Cree BR30 installed 9/20/14.  Used about 8 hours per day.  That's about 7,000 hours.  roughly 1/4 of advertised 25,000 hours.  Bulb is in an open ceiling can in an air conditioned space with an on/off switch (not dimmer).  Can't get much kinder to a bulb than that.

On that note: I have Luminus BR40 17W, 5000K bulb starting to work and not work sometimes. Purchaed at costco.ca online and only available for a short time. I use four of them and it will be hard to match without replacing all four.

 

Paid about $30 per bulb, so not too happy and not sure where to go. I know Costco will give my money back easily but then what? ...a different temperature bulb in a set of four? or a different brand that shows a different colour or dims with a different curve? **SIGH** Install date of December 2015, written on the side of the bulb with permanant marker.

 

Anyway, the result of that sequence was I attempted to pull it's brother out, in another ceiling potlight socket and burned my fingers on the bulb. I didn;t feel the ehat until I had to grab past the outer face rim and I thought I was going to drop from the top of the ladder, fixing another one.

 

My guess if LED bulbs will never become a viable option installed in an overhead potlight socket inside an insulated ceiling. The heat has no place to disapate and the temperature builds up until the electronics just burn out as expected in that sort of temperature. Capacitors are well know to not handle that as evidenced in the old electron tube TV sets. Even hardened ICs don't like that kind of heat once you get around 100C.

[Teken]

My WAG is another five years the LED industry will taper out and more consistent products will be seen. If not I supposed the land fills will be quite full in the short / long term!

[apostolakisl]

The bulb is rated for 28.8 years at 3 hours per day. That is 25000 hours.

[larryllix]

The bulb is rated for 28.8 years at 3 hours per day. That is 25000 hours.

It appears their simulated testing hasn't proven to be reliable in many cases.

Fairly bold to put out extravagent claims for life before and bulbs has ever been in existence yet.

 

My guess it ten years down the pipe, we all be thinking, "We had high hopes." Solid state devices do not like heat. Either do capacitors. LED bulbs produce lots of heat as evidenced by massive heat sinks found on many manufacturer's "experimental bulb designs".

 

Are built in fans with stats coming next?

[Teken]

The bulb is rated for 28.8 years at 3 hours per day. That is 25000 hours.

 

Yes, pretty sure what I wrote up above made no sense in terms of the life expectancy you saw!

 

LOL . . .

 

But I am sure you understood what I meant in that *they* the maker assumes a light bulb will only be on for 3 hours per day. I have to gather the engineers have tested the hardware to sustain that light output duration / period.

 

Taking into account MTBF as all good engineers would - I'd hope.

 

Unfortunately at some point trying to squeeze out XX years from something that costs $4.XX might be a little hard for some. Besides cheap parts the biggest factor I've seen is proper heat sinking, dissipation, and venting. One would think something so obvious would be considered but sadly thermodynamics is one of the major weaknesses in in these products.

 

You simply can't expect something that generates heat and have it no where to go to expect it to last. Whether it dries out capacitors, burns out resistors, IC's that heat must be removed. Back in the day I always heard the OG's (Old Guys) talk about weight. I never paid much attention to this area before as I was just a young punk!

 

But as I got older and could actually own high end equipment this whole weight thing really hit home. There are a few fancy ways to remove heat but the tried and true method is mass / density and using natural convection. Makes no noise and offers steady and predictable heat dissipation when properly employed.

 

Bottom line if you pick up a LED bulb and it has some heft the engineers and company didn't skimp on that part. All of the Luminus 100 watt bulbs I own just weigh like a freight train!

 

LOL . . . 

[stusviews]

Mean Time Between Failures is just the numerical average. It doesn't mean that's how long the device will last. It's only an estimate of what you can expect most of the time. As an extreme example, if one device lasts 1 hour and another lasts 99 hours, then the MTBF of those two devices is 50 hours.

[apostolakisl]

Mean Time Between Failures is just the numerical average. It doesn't mean that's how long the device will last. It's only an estimate of what you can expect most of the time. As an extreme example, if one device lasts 1 hour and another lasts 99 hours, then the MTBF of those two devices is 50 hours.

 

Technically true, but we all know how electronic failures work.  Very predictable.  Death in infancy or they last as long as they would be HONESTLY rated.  Unless they rated these bulbs for use in a blast freezer, they know the real life and they lied.  It isn't like this is a one off bad bulb either that lived through infancy and got a weird disease of adolescence.  This bulb was the longest lasting of 4 BR30's I installed in my office.  For comparison, just read the thread on the PLM's.  Unlike lightbulbs, these are on 24/7 so there is not much debate on how many hours they ran.  Time and time and time again, failure at 26-30 months.  Cree is a company that has proven competent people, so I feel compelled to say they know exactly the lie they are telling on these bulbs.

 

Speaking of longevity, I just put a little mini pizza for my son in my toaster oven, that I got for college graduation, that was 1991.  Black and Decker.  Aside from the fact that the indicator light bulb is burned out, all else functions.

 

Back to bulbs.  If indeed the average is accurate, then I guess someone out there is going to have some bulbs that they have to put in their will to makeup for all my failures.

[stusviews]

You're just now eating a pizza that you got in 1991?

[apostolakisl]

You're just now eating a pizza that you got in 1991?

Wise guy

[larryllix]

The bulb is rated for 28.8 years at 3 hours per day. That is 25000 hours.

There may be some word twisting there. In my case with recessed ceiling lights 3 hours per day may cause the lights to last forever by turning them off before the operating heat builds up to the point of destroying the electronics.

 

These companies may know this factor and list them as 3 hours per day on purpose to taint the testing results.

 

Perhaps at 8 hours per day at 100% brightness, they only last 1000 hours.

 

Perhaps at 10% brightness the MTBF of the PS capacitors is only about 500 hours.

 

Perhaps at100% brightness and cycling them for 5 minute each cycle, 30 times per day the ballasts burn out in 500 hours.

 

All these factors are possible while still meeting the "last 25,000 hours based on 3 hours per day" claim. Maximum was never mentioned, but may be a factor, especially in an insulated ceiling fixture.

 

These factors were all problems discovered with the CFL, promises too. I have a lot of them with brown, burnt, ballasts where mounted, hanging down in ceiling fixtures.

 

Energy conservation aside, perhaps we have all been duped by the light bulb companies. It wouldnt be the first time they perpetuated a global conspiracy with light bulbs.

[apostolakisl]

There may be some word twisting there. In my case with recessed ceiling lights 3 hours per day may cause the lights to last forever by turning them off before the operating heat builds up to the point of destroying the electronics.

 

These companies may know this factor and list them as 3 hours per day on purpose to taint the testing results.

 

Perhaps at 8 hours per day at 100% brightness, they only last 1000 hours.

 

Perhaps at 10% brightness the MTBF of the PS capacitors is only about 500 hours.

 

Perhaps at100% brightness and cycling them for 5 minute each cycle, 30 times per day the ballasts burn out in 500 hours.

 

All these factors are possible while still meeting the "last 25,000 hours based on 3 hours per day" claim. Maximum was never mentioned, but may be a factor, especially in an insulated ceiling fixture.

 

These factors were all problems discovered with the CFL, promises too. I have a lot of them with brown, burnt, ballasts where mounted, hanging down in ceiling fixtures.

 

Energy conservation aside, perhaps we have all been duped by the light bulb companies. It wouldnt be the first time they perpetuated a global conspiracy with light bulbs.

I think you are being quite kind giving them such benefit of the doubt.  

 

The rating on the package says "lasts 28.8 years".  The fine print says "based on 3 hours per day".  It does not say "when used no more than 3 hours per day".  Furthermore, none of br30's I used were in insulated cans nor were any on dimmers.  Though the package clearly states they are dimmable with no caveat that it would shorten life span or otherwise damage them.  

 

From an electronic standpoint, once the unit makes operating temperature, failure time is done by simple linear addition, not an exponential scale.  And, no doubt, they make operating temperature in seconds, not hours.  Cycles on the other hand are known to shorten life span, and 25,000 hours at 3 hours per day with a single on/off per day is more cycles than 25,000 hours at 8 hours per day.  So in that case 8 hours per day should give you even more than 25,000 hours. 

 

So, in short, they promised us a good value and delivered a terrible value.  And they are totally getting away with it. Excepting that I will never buy another Cree A19 or B30 bulb again and I hope that anyone reading this does the same.  While I have very much enjoyed my other Cree lights, I do not think I will buy them either just as a result of this screw job.

[larryllix]

I think you are being quite kind giving them such benefit of the doubt.  

 

The rating on the package says "lasts 28.8 years".  The fine print says "based on 3 hours per day".  It does not say "when used no more than 3 hours per day".  Furthermore, none of br30's I used were in insulated cans nor were any on dimmers.  Though the package clearly states they are dimmable with no caveat that it would shorten life span or otherwise damage them.  

 

From an electronic standpoint, once the unit makes operating temperature, failure time is done by simple linear addition, not an exponential scale.  And, no doubt, they make operating temperature in seconds, not hours.  Cycles on the other hand are known to shorten life span, and 25,000 hours at 3 hours per day with a single on/off per day is more cycles than 25,000 hours at 8 hours per day.  So in that case 8 hours per day should give you even more than 25,000 hours. 

 

So, in short, they promised us a good value and delivered a terrible value.  And they are totally getting away with it. Excepting that I will never buy another Cree A19 or B30 bulb again and I hope that anyone reading this does the same.  While I have very much enjoyed my other Cree lights, I do not think I will buy them either just as a result of this screw job.

I agree, I will not touch CREE bulbs again after 50% of my dozen bulbs failing but...

 

The BR40 lamps that run so hot and recently burned out was a Luminus from Costco.ca.

 

These bulbs do not reach their operating maximum temperature after a few seconds. There is no maximum temperature and dependant on the ambient temperature and air circulation. When you install them in a enclosed ceiling fixture temperatures can exceed the limits for any electronics. Insulation around the fixture makes it even worse.

 

Many CFLs contained warnings, "Only to be used in base down positions". My guess is after many thousands of warranty claims LEDs will contain the same warnings. They can't take their own heat.

 

LED bulbs will either, become a lot cheaper and throwaway, stopping the ridiculous  long life claims, improve their efficiency and reduce heat, or state warranty void if used base up. Returning to incandescent bulbs, after modifying our ceiling fixtures for high temperatures and adding thermal protection for the last 30 years , is becoming much harder with eco-terrorists so rampant, and escalating electrical energy prices, these days.

[Teken]

So one has to ask the question moving forward. Is it worth knowing something will die and not ever meet the service life and purchase the cheapest LED bulb?

 

Or continue to purchase more expansive bulbs hoping they do meet that life expectancy?

 

For this specific topic only this offers me some conflict. While I believe in general terms you get what you pay for in most things. This market segment has shown the industry still has lots of room for improvement. I can only imagine the feeling of disgust after spending top dollar for such a product only to find out it didn't last.

 

Doesn't help to read many others have spent a lot less and have seen better service life!

 

My take is to follow the masses in waiting for a nice sale, POCO rebate, and grab those premium items for cheap. Going this route offers some balance of *I didn't buy the cheapest LED bulb* so one would hope the vendor invested the proper design and components to last close to the advertised period.

 

For me when I'm at the store just browsing. I take a few moments to look over the product and hold the unpackaged item in my hand. I always look at what the base is made of and what kind of venting / heat sink technology is in use. When you can feel the heft in a product and see metal frames you know at least one area has been addressed.

 

I can't honestly say spending $25 - 150.XX on a single none smart LED bulb is something I would ever consider.

 

Thoughts?

[apostolakisl]

So one has to ask the question moving forward. Is it worth knowing something will die and not ever meet the service life and purchase the cheapest LED bulb?

 

Or continue to purchase more expansive bulbs hoping they do meet that life expectancy?

 

For this specific topic only this offers me some conflict. While I believe in general terms you get what you pay for in most things. This market segment has shown the industry still has lots of room for improvement. I can only imagine the feeling of disgust after spending top dollar for such a product only to find out it didn't last.

 

Doesn't help to read many others have spent a lot less and have seen better service life!

 

My take is to follow the masses in waiting for a nice sale, POCO rebate, and grab those premium items for cheap. Going this route offers some balance of *I didn't buy the cheapest LED bulb* so one would hope the vendor invested the proper design and components to last close to the advertised period.

 

For me when I'm at the store just browsing. I take a few moments to look over the product and hold the unpackaged item in my hand. I always look at what the base is made of and what kind of venting / heat sink technology is in use. When you can feel the heft in a product and see metal frames you know at least one area has been addressed.

 

I can't honestly say spending $25 - 150.XX on a single none smart LED bulb is something I would ever consider.

 

Thoughts?

 

Caveat Emptor I believe is the phrase.

 

Now this person I know who is building a house down the street from me has decided to use this brand of light called Lucifer.  Yes, like the devil.  Anyway, they cost like $250/fixture and he has like 100 of them.  Think about that if 2 years from now they all start failing.

[mwester]

I have to wonder about commercial-rated bulbs...  to start, is there even such a thing with LED bulbs at this point?

 

I've have very good luck with commercial bulbs for florescent fixtures in the distant past -- the general distinction is that replacing bulbs piece-meal in an office building or in a store or in a warehouse is prohibitively expensive, and thus the rating is done differently.  It usually assumes lighting to be very few cycles, but on for extended periods of time each day, and it is usually relatively conservative so that when the property manager does the regularly scheduled light-bulb change there are very few, if any, bulbs out at that point (and btw, those bulb changes are massive operations, for example in office buildings that's usually done by a team of guys on stilts who go through the entire floor and replace every florescent tube in every fixture all at once).

 

I have many LED fixtures that approach commercial installations in terms of number of on/off cycles, and in terms of cost (difficulty) of replacement.  If there are commercial LEDs whose ratings can be trusted, I'd pay top dollar for at least several dozen fixtures here (I have a few that even require scaffolding to be erected to replace them -- you can't reach them with a ladder even!)

[larryllix]

Caveat Emptor I believe is the phrase.

 

Now this person I know who is building a house down the street from me has decided to use this brand of light called Lucifer.  Yes, like the devil.  Anyway, they cost like $250/fixture and he has like 100 of them.  Think about that if 2 years from now they all start failing.

When I was building 9 years ago the push was to offer rebates for fixtures that were eco-rated. They were pushing the new (at the time) twist-lock double pin base. I successfully avoided all them despite the attractive rebates and discounts, sticking with only medium base bulb sockets.

 

My son recently bought a huge house loaded with those 2" halogen pot lights. Rough guess about 50 of them throughout out house.

Terrible lighting!

 

The first year in there he replaced 30, 50 Watt halogens with LEDs going from 1500 watts of lighting down to about 140 watts of lighting and the LEDs were much brighter and a cleaner white for kitchen work.

 

And as a bonus, he doesn't have to replace a halogen bulb every week on average. With the intense heat and high temperatures these halogens generate, trapped in a ceiling fixture,  the life expectancy is only about 6 months per bulb. Do the math...that was less than a week MTBF for the room. What a PITA. There was either a ladder in the room or a few burned out bulbs, at all times!

[Teken]

Caveat Emptor I believe is the phrase.

 

Now this person I know who is building a house down the street from me has decided to use this brand of light called Lucifer.  Yes, like the devil.  Anyway, they cost like $250/fixture and he has like 100 of them.  Think about that if 2 years from now they all start failing.

 

Wow . . .

 

To both brand name and price - I will need to take a few moments and review what benefits these bulbs offer. I would like to think they offer something really special in terms of looks, design, color rendering? For that kind of money they better be sipping 1/2 watt when turned on!

[Teken]

I have to wonder about commercial-rated bulbs...  to start, is there even such a thing with LED bulbs at this point?

 

I've have very good luck with commercial bulbs for florescent fixtures in the distant past -- the general distinction is that replacing bulbs piece-meal in an office building or in a store or in a warehouse is prohibitively expensive, and thus the rating is done differently.  It usually assumes lighting to be very few cycles, but on for extended periods of time each day, and it is usually relatively conservative so that when the property manager does the regularly scheduled light-bulb change there are very few, if any, bulbs out at that point (and btw, those bulb changes are massive operations, for example in office buildings that's usually done by a team of guys on stilts who go through the entire floor and replace every florescent tube in every fixture all at once).

 

I have many LED fixtures that approach commercial installations in terms of number of on/off cycles, and in terms of cost (difficulty) of replacement.  If there are commercial LEDs whose ratings can be trusted, I'd pay top dollar for at least several dozen fixtures here (I have a few that even require scaffolding to be erected to replace them -- you can't reach them with a ladder even!)

 

Not - but kind of related to your ask but I am really interested in what Insteon offers for that ballast dimmer. I think if everyone was using the whole 0-10 VDC to control such commercial lighting it would offer more options and reduce consumer prices. Even though Smarthome has finally reduced the price on this item the costs of the fixtures are just wow!