pcarfan Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 I built my house 3 years ago with the intent of doing Insteon/UD ISY 994i/Elk for lighting and security setup. I have a separate Q-see camera system. I bought all relevant components. But, only now Am I getting the installation started. So, my knowledge is murky. I had a complete understanding then. ELK is the most complicated setup here. So, for now I am going to just setup Insteon and ISY 994i. I just want to make sure, I can just come in and seamlessly integrare elk into the whole system and not have to dismantle and start from scratch. I could study the whole setup again and figure our myself. But, if someone can help, I can just study Insteon and at least begin this project with just Insteon and ISY. Thank you! P.S: Will I be getting into any firmware issues as the whole setup is being sitting for over 3 years? For instance I have Windows 10, will this cause a problem. Same with Java etc., will ISY still recognize all of this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWareman Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 Yes. That's what I did years ago, started with ISY, built out Insteon then added Elk. Since then, tweaking programs to use the Elk zones... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulbates Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 Probably the place to think ahead of time is where the two overlap in terms of functionality, and decide which way to implement.. as opposed to re-doing it later. Primarily this would be for sensors: I would only use elk for security sensors and actuators, especially things like garage and entry doors. It may require more wiring, but the reliability and security are considered better. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcarfan Posted January 14, 2017 Author Share Posted January 14, 2017 Thank you both. Everything was wired when the house was built, including to all sensors. Thank you for reminding of the overlap, that jogs my memory. I am using insteon only for lighting. ELK Door, window, elk sensors will be wireless too. Did not want to drill into these. Motion, vibration, water etc sensors will be hard wired. Yeah the wires are hanging off the walls now. Of course the keypads are already hard wired and the keypad end installed 3 years ago as those wires were truly unsightly. I am dealing with router issues with my wired camera setup. It's all setup for both LAN and WAN and it works however since then the router keeps malfunctioning requiring constant reboot. I am troubleshooting that now. Once that is sorted out, next thing is insteon/ISY which seems like a breeze (I printed all relevant info/posts 3 years ago and re-read it now). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulbates Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 FWIW, I've found that since more iot is operating within the house LAN, a more substantial router is needed. Just upgraded mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcarfan Posted January 14, 2017 Author Share Posted January 14, 2017 I have an ASUS RT AC68R router, which should be sufficient. I recently requested my modem to be put into bridge mode to get a public IP address, which was needed for the camera setup. We also had to setup a static IP for my camera. I've just unplugged the camera DVR from the router to see whether that's the cause. Tech support was very helpful in this process. Once I narrow down the issue I should be able to have them sort it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulbates Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 I had a 68, behind a Comcast Arris Tm722G, that is in pass-through mode. As i added my most recent iot and increased LAN traffic in a number of ways is when it would occasionally (6 weeks are so) would lock up. I had my family trained how to restart it, but as a traveler didn't want to deal with it anymore. Having worked through other brands of routers over 15 years, I do like Asus the best. I systematically turned off some of the more processor hungry features of the 68 and also went from 4 QOS levels to 3, and that seemed to help a little. I went with the 88 around Christmas time. I was able to simplify my LAN wiring and get rid of another switch because of the 8 on board ports. So far, it has not locked up and the interface is more responsive on the 88. But the jury is still out. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcarfan Posted January 14, 2017 Author Share Posted January 14, 2017 Paul, Wow! That's great to know. Mine is the Comcast Arris DG860. I don't know much about this stuff, just what I learned through tech help. I also have a newer ASUS ac87/AC 2400, which is currently just used a range extender. Wonder whether that is a better option? I could switch their roles. I haven't connected ISY/insteon or ELK to it. If it already has load issue, I guess it's only going to get a lot worse. Surprised these pricey routers are so easily overwhelmed. I don't have much connected to it, just the typical iPads and laptop. Oh yeah Netflix, Hulu wired to few tv's. I also have a Cisco switch connected to the router. Currently I have the camera hooked to the switch to see whether it's stable. I don't know whether that makes a difference. I'll study and see what QOS levels and see whether I could change that too. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulbates Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 ... I also have a newer ASUS ac87/AC 2400, which is currently just used a range extender. Wonder whether that is a better option? I could switch their roles. I haven't connected ISY/insteon or ELK to it. If it already has load issue, I guess it's only going to get a lot worse. Surprised these pricey routers are so easily overwhelmed. I don't have much connected to it, just the typical iPads and laptop. Oh yeah Netflix, Hulu wired to few tv's. I also have a Cisco switch connected to the router. Currently I have the camera hooked to the switch to see whether it's stable. I don't know whether that makes a difference. While the the elk integration should add minimal traffic compared to a streaming device like a camera or mutliple tvs, the swap is probably worth a try from a reliability (potentially less/no rebooting) perspective. My 68 was the older first rev with 800mhz processors. The 87 is 1ghz I believe. Also patch the ISY and ELK on the same physical switch to contain their traffic. There is an ASUS FW utility used to save the router settings when switching between models, which is what you are doing (twice). I used it to upgrade from the 68 to the 88. http://www.snbforums.com/threads/ac68-ac88-migration.36225/#post-295377 (download files are in post 1) You'll want to poke around and validate settings. My wired printer and NAS did not appreciate the new mac address of the new router when hot patched over and needed to be restarted, not a biggie. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcarfan Posted January 15, 2017 Author Share Posted January 15, 2017 Thanks Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 Video / LAN Basics: - Video should always be segmented or run on its own LAN. - Selecting the correct FPS, IPS, Resolution, Compression. - Programming the camera to record and send ONLY upon movement, schedule, timed interval. - Static vs Active motion management: some cameras will auto reduce IPS when the image is static. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcarfan Posted January 16, 2017 Author Share Posted January 16, 2017 Video / LAN Basics: - Video should always be segmented or run on its own LAN. - Selecting the correct FPS, IPS, Resolution, Compression. - Programming the camera to record and send ONLY upon movement, schedule, timed interval. - Static vs Active motion management: some cameras will auto reduce IPS when the image is static. How do I segment it, can you elaborate. Motion management is not reliable, (at least on my system per reviews) so, I don't want to use it. Reducing video quality doesn't sound appealing to me, as why buy a HD camera etc and not use its full potential. Of course, it is better than it not be in the network, but hopefully I can solve it without lowering video quality. However, I only have one camera running now, it will be 5-8 once I am done. So, router problems, if caused by the camera (still figuring out), is only gong to get much worse. What is IPS? Wonder whether I can hookup the camera directly to the router and on,y view it through WAN. Would that alleviate this 'bandwidth' issue? Thank you for your comments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Wonder whether I can hookup the camera directly to the router and on,y view it through WAN. Would that alleviate this 'bandwidth' issue? If a device is connected to your router, then it's on your LAN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 How do I segment it, can you elaborate. Motion management is not reliable, (at least on my system per reviews) so, I don't want to use it. Reducing video quality doesn't sound appealing to me, as why buy a HD camera etc and not use its full potential. Of course, it is better than it not be in the network, but hopefully I can solve it without lowering video quality. However, I only have one camera running now, it will be 5-8 once I am done. So, router problems, if caused by the camera (still figuring out), is only gong to get much worse. What is IPS? Wonder whether I can hookup the camera directly to the router and on,y view it through WAN. Would that alleviate this 'bandwidth' issue? Thank you for your comments As noted the ideal method is to operate the security cameras on its own dedicated network. This avoids bandwidth issues that may clash with other network devices / services. I am going to over generalize the phrase segmenting because you're a consumer and not a Enterprise user. In your specific use case you would simply place the device on a different subnet. This in no way will change or alleviate bottle necks or bandwidth issues seen on the network. Only a managed switch and a high bandwidth gigabit network will offer that solution. Resolution: Everyone wants to see 1080 / 4 K video - The reality is 99% of the consumers today don't have the infrastructure to support it. Even if they did there isn't a pressing need for every area to use 1080 vs 720 vs 480 vs X. IPS is images per second do a Google search as to the why all of the above needs to be considered and tailored to the environment. As of this writing there are several common compression methods which many companies use to alleviate bandwidth issues. But note this isn't the magic bullet its simply a tool to be used while balancing other trade offs. You can select from MJPEG, MPEG-4, h.264 etc but you will quickly find out it doesn't solve bandwidth issues alone. Bandwidth: As noted up above assuming you had the best gigabit gear in place. Assume you had the perfect security camera system set up. You are still limited by your upload limit governed by your ISP / Internet service package. So if you have a max upload of 2 Mb vs 10 Mb you have almost no chance seeing 8 to 12 cameras streaming live. Let me qualify the phrase live . . . If I wave my hand past the camera 10000 miles away and you could some how confirm when I did so there would be no delay. It would happen in real time - which in your case is never going to happen. What you are going to find is unless you resolve the hardware, ISP, camera setup, etc you will have to accept the fact some cameras will need to be adjusted for less quality. Its not the end of the world because having something vs having nothing is far better. Lastly, keep in mind we haven't even addressed what a person would be using to view the remote images . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcarfan Posted January 16, 2017 Author Share Posted January 16, 2017 If a device is connected to your router, then it's on your LAN. I meant to write, directly to the modem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcarfan Posted January 16, 2017 Author Share Posted January 16, 2017 Taken There's a lot of good info you've mentioned. I checked it, my main stream is doing 4,000 kb/s, the software is setup to do about 600 kb/s for the side stream, which I assume are my other cameras. Which means they will all be poor quality anyways. I will tweak the settings you mentioned. The menu shows most of the parameters you mentioned. Mine is a 720p camera. For, nor I've unhooked the camera from the router/modem and see whether my router will stay stable. Mine is already doing h.264 compression. Ill also see whether I can increase my upload speed. When it came to video resolution, I was thinking wrong. The NVR will still record high reduction it's just the streaming via LAN/WAN right? I can certainly live with very low resolution there. Or does it also reduce resolution of recorded image? Thanks It sucks I can't get real time motion 1000 miles away. But that's ok. Thanks for mentioning the receiving end. That's a great point. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Lots of this depends on the camera maker and the correct technology to make things happen. Back in the day all there was were analog cameras that taped everything to a standard Beta / VHS medium. Now you have digital NVR's either as a central recorder or those cameras with what many call edge recording. There are huge benefits of using both over one or the other. Having a central NVR allows one box to manage the primary aspects of the images and recording preferences. Having a camera with edge recording (Micro SD) allows a person to use each camera as a recorder. This saves on bandwidth immensely because nothing needs to be streamed to a central point. All of the processing, compression, access, alarms, etc are all handled by the edge recorder. This also provides extreme fail over which I am a big fan of . . . Meaning someone would have to physically disable all the cameras one by one vs just taking one central NVR. Resolution: Its up to the maker to define if the local recording is 1080i, 1080p, 720, etc when you change the various settings. You will need to record the images and compare what the different settings yield to you. Keep in mind don't fall prey to the silly tricks many of the lower end companies offer. Meaning they will show you the live local stream (1080p) at all times regardless of recorded vs monitoring modes. They do this because its great marketing and fools 99% of the people when in reality what you are seeing isn't close to what would be streamed, recorded, and played back. Regardless of the above as I stated you will come to realize some areas truly don't need to be set up to have the highest quality of recording. A rarely accessed or low threat area is a good use case and can help save you some resources in the system. In closing if this area becomes more serious for you the market offers many professional hardware which offers dual Ethernet input vs output. This was done long ago because companies quickly realized real world bandwidth restrictions were never going away. Thus they include massive buffers for the hardware and separate in bound recording vs out going viewing. This is the only way to ensure a system that exceeds 12 to X cameras any measure real time video quality. Keeping in mind almost all high end cameras that offer edge recording or similar web based access include some kind of video buffering to allow the smoothest video representation. Just to hit home the key point no serious enterprise / government site operates the CCTV system on the same LAN. Its no magic as to why because even the FBI, CIA, NSA, it doesn't matter what alphabet you think of have learned the hard way its near impossible to have both (normal users) and (security) cameras on the same network and not impact the other. Please consider do the very same it will ensure the WAF remains high and you don't sleep with the dog because Netflix won't load, the kids XBox session is slow, and grandmas cooking channel isn't freezing mid frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcarfan Posted January 16, 2017 Author Share Posted January 16, 2017 Oh! you hit home with 'sleeping with the dogs'. I had to hardwire the main TV directly to the modem, so there's no Netflix wifi issues when I am not there...this was done after a clearly articulated threat. I am going to look into setting up two LAN. It looks like I can do that with just one internet connection and one modem. I have a cisco switch and it looks like the two routers will connect to the switch and the switch to the modem. I have two ASUS routers (68 and 87) and I should be able to do this. I did a quick google search and only read one blog, so I could be wrong. I will study further. Any Tips is welcome. Thanks! P.S: It looks like my NVR can indeed set a different setting for LAN/WAN vs recording. So, this is the 'extra stream', with a setting of 600kb/s. Could that possible be overwhelming my network? "These same settings can be applied separately to the Extra Stream. This is the video data that is sent by the NVR through the Internet to enable remote monitoring. This stream has a lower bandwidth than the main stream which is recorded to the DVR. " P.S 2: It has traffic data too...It looks like it displays everything I need to know, to make certain systems are not overloaded. "You can track the traffic load of your system on your network in real time by clicking on this tab. It displays both upload and download speeds to and from your NVR graphically and numerically"................... "This window shows the network activity of your NVR. While the Network Load tab covered previously shows the upload and download speeds, this window shows the communications between your system and the network and how they rate compared to the NVR’s capacity. If either send or receive capacities are reached, video may not stream smoothly either to the NVR or to remote users attempting to access video from the system." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottmichaelj Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Oh! you hit home with 'sleeping with the dogs'. I had to hardwire the main TV directly to the modem, so there's no Netflix wifi issues when I am not there...this was done after a clearly articulated threat. I am going to look into setting up two LAN. It looks like I can do that with just one internet connection and one modem. I have a cisco switch and it looks like the two routers will connect to the switch and the switch to the modem. I have two ASUS routers (68 and 87) and I should be able to do this. I did a quick google search and only read one blog, so I could be wrong. I will study further. Any Tips is welcome. Thanks! P.S: It looks like my NVR can indeed set a different setting for LAN/WAN vs recording. So, this is the 'extra stream', with a setting of 600kb/s. Could that possible be overwhelming my network? "These same settings can be applied separately to the Extra Stream. This is the video data that is sent by the NVR through the Internet to enable remote monitoring. This stream has a lower bandwidth than the main stream which is recorded to the DVR. " P.S 2: It has traffic data too...It looks like it displays everything I need to know, to make certain systems are not overloaded. "You can track the traffic load of your system on your network in real time by clicking on this tab. It displays both upload and download speeds to and from your NVR graphically and numerically"................... "This window shows the network activity of your NVR. While the Network Load tab covered previously shows the upload and download speeds, this window shows the communications between your system and the network and how they rate compared to the NVR’s capacity. If either send or receive capacities are reached, video may not stream smoothly either to the NVR or to remote users attempting to access video from the system." Maybe a better idea would be less equipment but one router like Mikrotik and setup a separate VLAN for the cameras and one for the network. Then you can go from router to a unmanaged switch for your network and then a router to a PoE managed switch on the separate VLAN for your cameras. This is similar what I do for.my customers. The switches and routers can handle everything you want to do as long as your using gigabit equipment. If you want spend the money on managed switches for both sides and each port can be adjusted to specific speeds/throughput for each connection so nothing hogs the bandwidth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcarfan Posted January 16, 2017 Author Share Posted January 16, 2017 Scott, I was just reading this blog on Mikrotik http://networkingforintegrators.com/2013/01/how-to-run-multiple-networks-from-a-mikrotik/ managed switches are $$$, but if it helps the camera's I will consider one, hoe about this one? https://www.amazon.com/NETGEAR-ProSAFE-24-Port-Gigabit-GS728TP-100NAS/dp/B00LW9A328?th=1 with 15W for each port Or https://www.amazon.com/NETGEAR-ProSAFE-24-Port-Gigabit-GS728TP-100NAS/dp/B006V38CAU?th=1 with 30W of power for each port, but $255 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottmichaelj Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 Scott, I was just reading this blog on Mikrotik http://networkingforintegrators.com/2013/01/how-to-run-multiple-networks-from-a-mikrotik/ managed switches are $$$, but if it helps the camera's I will consider one, hoe about this one? https://www.amazon.com/NETGEAR-ProSAFE-24-Port-Gigabit-GS728TP-100NAS/dp/B00LW9A328?th=1 with 15W for each port Or https://www.amazon.com/NETGEAR-ProSAFE-24-Port-Gigabit-GS728TP-100NAS/dp/B006V38CAU?th=1 with 30W of power for each port, but $255 Well depends on the per camera power draw and how many cameras you need. TBH if its just a couple cameras I would just get a unmanaged switch and test how things go. I bet under "normal" circumstances you won't need a managed switch and dare I say even worry about a separate VLAN. You could setup a VPN server on the Tik router then use the external devices to connect via "VPN" for a secure connection. Then you can use the normal internal IPs and ports for your cameras without "port forwarding" them allowing them to be seen on the internet. So you would connect to your VPN server on the router then all 192.168.0.x:port would work externally as if you were at home. Make sense? The least amount of open ports the more secure the network. Edit: BTW I like Netgear switches! Can't go wrong they are solid as a rock. The thing with a managed switch is you can set each port a max amount of throughput. Then no one is a hog. Not 100% on this but the Tik CCR/CRS routers/switches can also be managed per port within itself. Edit: https://routerboard.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcarfan Posted January 17, 2017 Author Share Posted January 17, 2017 Scott it kind of make sense, my ASUS router can do VPN. I can study it further. What doesn't make sense is, it's just my wife and I at home. I have about 19 devices attached to the router, but only 2-3 is used at a time. The most bandwidth we will be using is if we are both watching Netflix or Hulu. I'm paying over $70 a month to timewarner, so internet is not slow. Why would even one camera fail the router? I will attach at least 5 cameras (already bought) and may go up to 8 cameras (max for this system). All cameras hardwired to the NVR. I set the streaming video to lowest possible quality. The NVR showed streaming video is only using about 155 Mb/s. my wifi internet on my iPad goes down immediately after hooking the NVR to the router. However, I can view the camera live view on my iPad via wifi/LAN. So, it looks like the camera is hogging the bandwidth. The router was brought back to factory setting a couple of days ago and no modifications were made to it since. Something weird is going on. 155mb/s should not crash my router. Yet it does it immediately, as soon as I unplug the camera wifi comes to life, I don't even need to reboot the router. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottmichaelj Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 Scott it kind of make sense, my ASUS router can do VPN. I can study it further. What doesn't make sense is, it's just my wife and I at home. I have about 19 devices attached to the router, but only 2-3 is used at a time. The most bandwidth we will be using is if we are both watching Netflix or Hulu. I'm paying over $70 a month to timewarner, so internet is not slow. Why would even one camera fail the router? I will attach at least 5 cameras (already bought) and may go up to 8 cameras (max for this system). All cameras hardwired to the NVR. I set the streaming video to lowest possible quality. The NVR showed streaming video is only using about 155 Mb/s. my wifi internet on my iPad goes down immediately after hooking the NVR to the router. However, I can view the camera live view on my iPad via wifi/LAN. So, it looks like the camera is hogging the bandwidth. The router was brought back to factory setting a couple of days ago and no modifications were made to it since. Something weird is going on. 155mb/s should not crash my router. Yet it does it immediately, as soon as I unplug the camera wifi comes to life, I don't even need to reboot the router. Those cameras are hardwired? You router is gigabit so shouldn't be an issue there. Also that router is 1300Mbps over 5ghz and 600Mbps over 2.4 so wireless shouldn't be an issue UNLESS those cameras are wireless. I don't know QSee but are you certain that's not an avg per camera use? IF its taking 155mb/s times 5 wireless cameras over 2.4ghz your maxing out your total bandwidth on wireless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcarfan Posted January 17, 2017 Author Share Posted January 17, 2017 Those cameras are hardwired? You router is gigabit so shouldn't be an issue there. Also that router is 1300Mbps over 5ghz and 600Mbps over 2.4 so wireless shouldn't be an issue UNLESS those cameras are wireless. I don't know QSee but are you certain that's not an avg per camera use? IF its taking 155mb/s times 5 wireless cameras over 2.4ghz your maxing out your total bandwidth on wireless. Thanks. Yes all cameras are hard wired. LAN WAN is used to view onsite with other devices like iPad or from outside respectively. I called q-see they seems to be very good. Tomorrow when I am home they are going to remotely login and resolve the issue. He said it could even be a firmware issue. So, let me report back, and thanks again for your offer of help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcarfan Posted January 18, 2017 Author Share Posted January 18, 2017 Today it is working fine. The immediate failure started jusr a couple of days ago. On that day, I checked the NVR carefully. NETWORK LOAD (under the folder REMOTE DEVICE INFO) jumped up as soon as I plugged in the Ethernet. Today it does not. It only moves up when I actually view my camera via LAN or WAN and that too it spikes up very little. I don't know what happened, I didn't change anything, it seems to be fine. However, for the previous two days, it too 24 hrs prior to it crashing the router. So, let me see what happens in the next few days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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