Cannot add device to ISY994i

[DAlter01]

I am starting out on converting 140+ device and functioning Houselinc network over to ISY994i.  I'm going to break it into bite sized chucks of house segments.  I'm starting out with my first two devices and trying to add them to the ISY.  I keep getting an error in linking a device the has historically worked fine under Houselinc.  The text of the error code is "could not determine device link table".  I am getting error code 9 and error code 3.  

 

Below is a level 3 diagnostic.  I am not familiar with how to read these diagnostics so I don't know what it is telling me.  Can anybody give me some pointers and what this diagnostic is telling me and what you see as to why I am not getting this device to link?  

 

Sat 02/04/2017 06:48:47 AM : [        Time] 06:48:48 0(0)

Sat 02/04/2017 06:52:07 AM : Start Insteon Device Linking Mode

Sat 02/04/2017 06:52:07 AM : [LNK-BGN     ] 02 64 01 00 06 

Sat 02/04/2017 06:52:38 AM : [LNK-STAT    ] 02 53 M(01) gid=00 2B.C8.D1 0120 41 

Sat 02/04/2017 06:52:38 AM : [2B.C8.D1 00] Linked device type=01.20 fw=41

Sat 02/04/2017 06:52:38 AM : [2B C8 D1 0  ] Added to list of devices to link to ISY

Sat 02/04/2017 06:52:38 AM : [iNST-SRX    ] 02 50 2B.C8.D1 43.A9.2C 23 01 00           (00)

Sat 02/04/2017 06:52:38 AM : [std-Direct Ack] 2B.C8.D1-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=0

Sat 02/04/2017 06:52:38 AM : [iNST-DUP    ] Previous message ignored.

Sat 02/04/2017 06:52:38 AM : [LNK-BGN     ] 02 64 01 00 06 

Sat 02/04/2017 06:53:11 AM : Stop Insteon Device Linking Mode, Final processing to follow

Sat 02/04/2017 06:53:12 AM : [iNST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 2B C8 D1 0F 0D 00

Sat 02/04/2017 06:53:12 AM : [LNK-END     ] 02 65 06 

Sat 02/04/2017 06:53:12 AM : [std MH      ] Unexpected Ack imCmd=65 cmd1= 0xA9

Sat 02/04/2017 06:53:12 AM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 2B.C8.D1 0F 0D 00 06                 (00)

Sat 02/04/2017 06:53:17 AM : [iNST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 2B C8 D1 0F 0D 00

Sat 02/04/2017 06:53:17 AM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 2B.C8.D1 0F 0D 00 06                 (00)

Sat 02/04/2017 06:53:26 AM : [iNST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 2B C8 D1 0F 0D 00

Sat 02/04/2017 06:53:26 AM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 2B.C8.D1 0F 0D 00 06                 (00)

Sat 02/04/2017 06:53:29 AM : [2B C8 D1 0  ] Failed to add device, reason 3

Sat 02/04/2017 06:53:30 AM : [All         ] Writing 0 bytes to devices

Sat 02/04/2017 06:53:30 AM : [All         ] Writing 0 bytes to devices

 

[paulbates]

Hops left of 0 is ugly. It suggests a communication problem. If you went with 2 PLMs, where did you locate the ISY's PLM? Ideally near the electrical panel in the center of the network?

 

Paul

[DAlter01]

I only have one PLM.  It is a very large house.  The main electrical panel is a 600 amp standalone outdoor panel cabinet that is not within the house and I can't put the PLM in there as it is not conditioned space (The house is in Palm Desert and temperatures in that cabinet will approach 200 degrees in the summer due to sun exposure) .  The house itself has several subpanels.  The PLM is somewhat near one of those subpanels.  The two devices I am initially attempting to connect are coming off the same subpanel that the PLM is on.  The existing Houselinc system seems to work fine from that same location.  On the Houselinc, I am using a 1st generation HUB as it's PLM.  That has worked fine.  This PLM is a brand new PLM I purchased and installed to start the ISY install.  I have turned off the HUB while attempting to link these devices.

[paulbates]

Gottcha... I was counting the hub as a plm. That's what I had on Homeseer when I converted.

 

If you are using the "Remove Existing Links" when Adding the insteon devices, having the Hub plugged in should not be a problem. And as a dual band device, might be supporting the network.

 

Is your PLM plugged in very close to the Hub and sits right next to it?

 

Paul

[DAlter01]

The HUB and the PLM are plugged into the same receptacle.  I am using the "Remove Existing Links" when adding.  I have tried it both ways with the HUB plugged in and with it unplugged.  It really didn't seem to have any impact.  

 

I don't know how to read the diagnostics.  Am I reading it correctly to see that the PLM is set to use a maximum of 3 hops and that I am using all 3 hops to reach this device (0 hops left)?  And, am I understanding hops correctly in that hops are the number of jumps the signal takes from one device to another before reaching from the PLM to the device?  I didn't have to dig to deep into understanding the background of the system with the Houselinc as it communcated fine with all of the devices through the HUB and therefore didn't have to learn that part of the system.

 

I assumed I couldn't use the HUB as a PLM for ISY.  Maybe the HUB is a better (more robust) communication device to the network than a PLM?  If so, would it make more sense to get a Gen 2 HUB and use it as a PLM for ISY?

[paulbates]

Another question, how did you bridge all legs of your existing electrical system when you set up houselinc?

• Signallinc passive bridges?
• Dual band devices verified with the "4 tap test"

It would be worth "4 tap testing" the devices your are trying to add if they are dual band

 

Paul

[paulbates]

The ISY only works with the Serial PLM. But that shouldn't be an issue,

 

Paul

[DAlter01]

Passive bridges are in the main electrical panel.  I have not heard of 4 tap testing before today but ran into the concept today in reading another thread.  I'm not familiar with how that works but I understand it is detailed in the ISY manual and will research and attempt to do that later today.

 

Maybe the bridges are too far away being in the main electrical panel causing the additional hops. Maybe I need to put bridges in one or two of the sub panels.

[paulbates]

Hard to say, its better to diagnose. The 4 tap sets up dual band devices an internal diagnostic mode to see if they are on opposing legs. Here is the basic procedure and how to read it. That 4 button press needs to be really fast

 

Use PowerLinc Modem as a Phase Bridge

1. Install additional dual-band INSTEON devices if they are not already installed
    
2. Start Phase Detection Mode by tapping the Set button on PowerLinc Modem four times quickly PowerLinc Modem will begin beeping and status LED will turn on solid green
    
3. Check the LED behavior of the other dual-band devices to see if they are on the opposite phase If at least one of the dual-band device LEDs is blinking green or is bright solid white or blue, the device is on the opposite phase. Continue on to step 4. If none of the dual-band devices exhibit the behavior above, they are on the same electrical phase. Try the following: • Follow steps 2 and 3 with the other dual-band devices to see if they are exhibiting the desired LED behavior • Move a dual-band device to another location until it exhibits the desired LED behavior
    
4. Tap PowerLinc Modem Set button PowerLinc Modem will stop beeping

[DAlter01]

Dabbled with it, I got the PLM into test mode but I didn't see anything in the LED's.  I'm running out the door and will spend more time fiddling with it later today.  Thanks for the help.

[stusviews]

If the status/set LED on other devices is not bright and/or blinking (depending on the device), then there is no RF communication at all between the PLM and target device. That doesn't mean that there's no powerline communication.

[DAlter01]

If I understanding the 4 tap test correctly, the switchlinc that I can't add to the ISY is NOT responding in any way to the test.  I turned the led down to 2% and I do not see it increase in intensity when I put the PLM into test mode.  I noticed that some of my switchlincs were flashing and others, only a few feet away, were not flashing.  I'm not sure of the function of the 4 tap test but I think it tells me:

 

1.I didn't look at all of my RF devices but I did notice some of them were 

[DAlter01]

Oops, sent the post prematurly,

 

I think the 4 tap test tells me:

 

1. If the LED increases in intensity it is receiving RF signal

2. If the LED is flashing it is on the opposite phase from the PLM

 

I don't think my understanding from above is complete.  Wouldn't the 4 tap test also have some way of telling if:

 

1.  the switchlinc is:

     a.  Only receiving RF

     b.  Receiving RF and powerline

     c.  Only receiving powerline

     d.  which phase it is on

 

If the 4 tap test will tell me items a-d above, I don't see any documentation which describes how to interpret the results on the switchlinc.  Also, since my switchlinc is working under Houselinc and responds to my HUB, but it failing the 4 tap test (no change in LED), how would I interpret that result?  

[paulbates]

The hub and PLM are not that different from a circuitry point of view. I used the first gen hub too, and it is very similar to the plm.

 

We should expect some differences, but not great differences, and at this point I think the test proves that there are great differences. Which seems to point back to something being different about where the PLM is versus the hub.

 

Since the hub is on a cord, it can be moved around and placed such that its RF gets a better view. The PLM normally has to be plugged down lower and right into the wall by wires, etc and its rf blocked. Can you put the PLM on a 6' extension cord, plug it into the exact same outlet as the hub and set it nearby the hub, then repeat the tests?

 

Paul

[DAlter01]

I have various dead zones around the house where my switchlincs fail the 4 tap test (no change in LED).  Would it be safe to assume that installation of a few  well placed Insteon Range Extenders would likely bridge whatever RF hole I have and also work to bridge my powerline signal from one sub-panel to the next so that I can improve my powerline signal in addition to improving my RF signal in those areas?

 

As mentioned in one of my early posts, my house's main electrical panel is a standalone cabinet that is not within the structure of the house.  The house itself has three subpanels that are tied to the standalone cabinet.  My phase bridges are within the standalone cabinet.  So, in theory to go from one part of the house to the next my powerline signal, in some instances, will have to go from the device to a subpanel, back to the main panel, back out to another subpanel and then to the other device.  That could, I suppose, result in a lot of powerline signal drop should there not be a dual band device that is within range that is otherwise bridging that powerline signal from one of the subpanels to the other.  My thoughts for which I'd like to get input back from the forum is:

 

1. Is my theory of why I'm having the problem likely

2. Would the Range Extender, if placed correctly, likely solve my problem

3. Would it be better to attempt to put in Phase bridges within the subpanels (currently phase bridges are only in the main panel)

4. Should I be looking in another direction to bring those failed 4-tap tests areas into proper fuction

[paulbates]

That is one way. I personally get a lot of value out of the passive coupler:

• Its dumb so it never has to be rebooted or reset
• It's a bridge, and as such costs 0 hops to cross. There are Insteon signal and hop diagnostics in the Homeseer Insteon Plugin from Mark Sandler. I logged 'before' and after the signal linc and the results were significant. Dual band transitions cost a hop.

I also have some access points and dual band devices. Some circuits have noise at the edges and dual band helps that, where needed. In addition, I put the PLM in an outlet right off my main panel so that its in the center of the electrical system for a better reach. In your case try to put the PLM at a location that is the fewest wire feet from there, as best as possible.

 

Given the size of your home and complexity of the electrical system, I would have couplers on every panel, and also dual band. The dual band is a no brainer these days because almost everything is. Use access points or range extenders in conjunction with single band devices like io linc where no dual band exists. For instance, I have one in my detached garage that it line of site to dual band switches in the house

 

Paul

Edited February 5, 2017 by paulbates

[DAlter01]

So, making progress in trying your extension cord trick.  Moving the PLM outside the cabinet (it was previously sitting right next to the HUB, touching actually) did get more devices to respond to the 4 tap test.  Still, many do not respond.  I think this tells me that I have improved the RF function of the PLM by moving it.

 

Also, the device that I couldn't get linked to ISY still did not respond to the 4 tap test but I was able to link it to the ISY.  So, my thought at present is to use a super long cat 5 cable I have and move the PLM around the house plugging it in at each end of the house and allowing me to link most/all of my devices to ISY.  If, after linking the devices I have some that don't respond once I return the PLM to it's normal operating spot, I can then attempt to rectify whatever dead zones I may have in getting signals to those dead zones.

 

Do you think the subpanel arrangement in my house is the issue and should be resolved with phase bridges at the subpanels?  Or, do you think it would be be easiest/best to just use well placed Range Extenders to bridge any RF voids or phase bridging issues I may have?

 

Also, is there a way to set the max number of hops to be higher than 3?  The house is about 170' from one end to the other so there will need to be multiple hops under any RF signal link.

[paulbates]

I think there are cases of here of similar sized and # of device setups that this can be accomplished without adding hops. 

 

I would add a signalinc bridge to each sub panel. 

Dualband will most likely be needed to move traffic between each separate subpanels wiring. To the best of your ability, have dual band devices and or Insteon Range extenders from each system on a circuit near each other. Here is what I mean

 

      Panel A                                                                       Panel B

  Signalinc bridge                                                      Signal Linc Bridge

Leg A      Leg B                                                      Leg A             Leg B

               Dual Band device   --line of sight  -- Dual band device

 

It doesn't matter which leg you use one either panel, just be sure you know that there is a dual band device from one of Panel A's legs near to a dual band device on one of Panel B's legs. Knowing that electrical system mapping can be tricky or take time to do by turning breakers off. Repeat the process for sub panel C

 

Also, the closer the blue item are, in terms of wire feet, to each respective panel, the better. Do the best you can with that. 

 

As mentioned above, the crossing the signal linc bridge is 0 hops.. you can potentially get a lot of benefits there

 

Paul

Edited February 5, 2017 by paulbates

[Teken]

Hello Dalter2,

 

The following reply is intended as informational feedback so your understanding is complete.

 

- The passive 2406H simply bridges the two sides of the split single phase electrical system in your home. This device couples both sides of the 120 VAC feeds of the homes electrical system. This device does not repeat or bolster the Insteon signal nor does it offer any RF Insteon signaling.

 

- Best practices is to have a plugin dual band device on all four corners of the home. This encompasses all floors of the home from basement, main, second level etc. If a plugin device is to be used I always opt for using and buying a lamp linc, on-off relay module as it offers dual use vs the dedicated Range Extender (RE) which replaces the Access Point (AP).

 

The benefit of the On-Off Relay module is that it has the ability to turn the RF vs Powerline signaling on vs off. It also includes other features not seen on the dual band lamp linc.

 

- 4 tap beacon test: This test simply indicates three critical points when the test is initiated. 

 

A) That both sides of the electrical feed is coupled / bridged.

 

That the device is either on the same leg vs opposite leg of the split single phase electrical system.

 

C) That the RF signal can indeed reach another dual band device in the home. If a specific device does not respond it simply indicates its not with in RF reception of the beacon test.

 

- Hop Count: The topology limits the hop count to three to reduce the possibility of communication *Fire Storm*. Meaning if the system was allowed to continue to send signals the entire Insteon network could be brought down due to over flow of data flow to complete that single request.

 

This is why its limited to three attempted hops or attempted signals . . .

 

- PLM vs HUB: The HUB II offer a stronger RF signaling vs the 2413S PLM. Specs range from 200 - 250 feet vs the 2413S PLM's *Up to 150 range. As you noted if your *Initial Insteon Mesh* is still in the mist of being deployed its important to have the 2413S PLM open and exposed to allow the enrolling process to be completed.

 

- Noise makers / Signal Suckers: No matter how much coupling - bridging you have in the home along with how much dual band devices you have in the home. No power line technology will over come these issues so proper use and deployment of filters are a must if you seek to have a robust and reliable Insteon network.

 

Please ensure all electronics are placed on a Insteon Filter Linc or similar . . .

Edited February 5, 2017 by Teken

[DAlter01]

Thanks Paul and Teken,

 

I'm going to invest in some phase bridges, Lamplincs, and filters.  Much appreciated!!

[Teken]

Thanks Paul and Teken,

 

I'm going to invest in some phase bridges, Lamplincs, and filters.  Much appreciated!!

 

Given the 2406H is fairly cheap adding this specific device to the sub panel is fine. I know lots of people use this device for personal reason(s). But, I am of the opinion that using a plugin dual band device offers more benefits. As noted the passive 2406H does not repeat, strengthen, or offer RF signaling.

 

It also takes up a breaker slot which I am not a fan of either along with offering no secondary benefit vs a plugin device like a On-Off Relay plugin module. If you have need for a dimmer vs relay to control lamps or appliances then that is a excellent route to take.

[stusviews]

Oops, sent the post prematurly,

 

I think the 4 tap test tells me:

 

1. If the LED increases in intensity it is receiving RF signal

2. If the LED is flashing it is on the opposite phase from the PLM

 

I don't think my understanding from above is complete.  Wouldn't the 4 tap test also have some way of telling if:

 

1.  the switchlinc is:

     a.  Only receiving RF

     b.  Receiving RF and powerline

     c.  Only receiving powerline

     d.  which phase it is on

 

If the 4 tap test will tell me items a-d above, I don't see any documentation which describes how to interpret the results on the switchlinc.  Also, since my switchlinc is working under Houselinc and responds to my HUB, but it failing the 4 tap test (no change in LED), how would I interpret that result?  

 

The 4-tap test tells you that the two devices are or are not communicating via RF and, if they are communicating that they are or are not on opposite legs of the split, single phase electric supply. Powerline signaling is not at all involved in the 4-tap test.

 

A hardwired coupler at the main panel ensures that the opposite legs are bridged. Adding dual-band devices does not improve bridging. The opposite legs are either coupled or they are not-period. However, adding dual-band devices will improve both the reliability and the range of the Insteon network

[DAlter01]

After adding phase bridges to each of my subpanels (4) it seems that all of my communication issues have resolved.  I occasionally get a device that doesn't respond when I'm writing data to a big scene but that issue seems to self resolve immediately.  I'm not having any memorable issues of devices not responding during normal operations. It seems that the issue I was experiencing was related to relying on the old X-10 phase bridges that were installed by others in the main panel.  That was just too far for the signal to travel without degrading.  Having the phase bridges within the subpanels has strengthened the network.

 

Thank you paulbates and Teken for the help.

[stusviews]

Info only: Installing a hard-wired phase-coupler does not strengthen Insteon signals. It simply provides a very solid bridge between the opposite legs of the split, single-phase electric supply. Often, that's all that's needed to improve communication between the ISY and devices and between devices themselves

 

Installing dual-band devices also does not strengthen the signal directly. But, they do repeat the signal, so the effect is improved communication.

Edited February 13, 2017 by stusviews

[paulbates]

 

Thank you paulbates and Teken for the help.

 

Glad you're working, thanks for reporting back

 

Paul