4 Tap Test in large house

[DAlter01]

Thanks.

 

I'll install some more filters on some more electronics that were humming and also on the LED drivers that I think are really noisy and see if that helps.  I switched to using program triggers vs controllers just to see if that would help solve the problem....it didn't.  I haven't switched it back yet.  I figured it didn't hurt to have a scene or two controlled both ways for a while so I could learn if there was any real world differences between the two different methods.  So far it seems the only difference is a slightly perceptable slower reaction in the program triggered scenes vs the controller scenes.

 

Hopefully i can get the system running at essentially 100 percent reliability without messing with my LED bulbs.  I don't want to give those up.  Electricity costs too much and incandescents are too much maintenance.  I'll have to live with a system that doesn't work 100 percent if that is the tradeoff.  But, based on teken's experience, some bulbs don't cause a problem so it might be a matter of purging the noisy ones out if filtering out all of my other noise sources doesn't resolve the problems.  

[stusviews]

We're nearly 100% LEDs, I appreciate the energy savings. Any money save is a bonus

 

I have had difficulty with LEDs and solved the problem by changing brands. But the only real test is to try (not use) incandescent bulbs. Then you'll know for sure where the difficulty lies (or not).

 

Also, X10 filters are as effective as are Insteon filters. The powerline frequencies at close enough, 120 kHz for X10 and 131.65 kHz for Insteon.

[Teken]

Teken,

 

You mentioned LED life.  You are right on, it will be the rare bulb that goes 25 years.  Not only will many fail before 25 years but they get a little dimmer each year like fluorescents do, just not as much degredation/year as fluorescents.  People will want to replace them before their lifspan is up just so they can see again.  I've had mine for three years now.  And, maybe it is my eyes getting worse (I'm 51 and they are in fact getting worse), but I had to reset my scenes at a higher level recently because the house was dimmer than what I think it was when I set it up.  

 

I ended up using the CREE bulbs on the outside patios, in closets where they would only be turned on 100%, etc.  I ended up using mostly Phillips, Soraa, and another brand I can't recall that was the house brand from either Lowes or Home Depot for the rest of the interior lights.  There are a few other specialty LED bulbs thrown in from Ebay for unique situations.  So far on failures I've had one Phillips fail, probably 8 CREE bulbs fail (out of probably 50-60) and a few of the Ebay bulbs.  To be fair, some of those CREE bulbs have been in outdoor can fixtures so they are living a tougher life than the ones that get nice conditioned air all day and night.  However, even on the interior I probably have 25-30 CREE bulbs and have had to replace 3-4 of those.   

 

As noted early on, one of the first things I do when coming on site is to remove any none incandescent light bulbs from the fixtures. The problem(s) I have seen first hand is many CFL, LED, Florescent bulbs offer a cumulative effect of either sucking down the Insteon signal via their internal filtering or emitting large amounts of noise on to the power line.

 

I agree with you the best course of action is to review any obvious bulbs which indicate some kind of symptom whether it be flicker, pulsing, strobing, hum, buzz, etc. You may find its just one or two bulbs which are giving you issues. Since your starting the filtering process try to place as many items on a power bar to save on Insteon filters.

 

Things to consider is when trouble shooting is to be innately aware of things operating when you see a performance / comm issues.

 

Just to change gears for a moment and ignore light bulbs as a culprit.

 

More often than not comm degradation its timed with the large appliances turning on. Almost anything with a motor / compressor will cause some kind of issue how ever slight. So document when the fridge, freezer, sump, furnace, air conditioner, central exhaust, ceiling fan, HRV, activate etc.

 

Almost anything with a transformer / ballast should be reviewed in the home also . . .

[DAlter01]

A little update to my noise reduction process.  I've found and eliminated a number of noise generators.  They are not always what you think are likely culprits.  By far my biggest generator was the 48V power supply for a POE network switch.  TVs were relatively quiet.  My receiver/amp for my home stereo was fairly noisy as are a number of other items I'll detail later.  The POE power supply was screaming at the 131.65 frequency.  In fact, I couldn't get its effects to go away despite putting it behind two Filterlincs run in series.  As such, I am replacing that POE switch.  It seems that some noise generators are so loud that filters are not fully effective. This POE switch was installed high on a shelf and I forgot about it and so it had escaped my previous search efforts.

 

I used two methods to find my noise.  First I used teken's AM radio trick.  That found a fair number of noisy devices and I put most of those behind Filterlincs or XPPF filters.  About that time my used YASEU radio arrived that I bought from Ebay for $100.  It is a model VR-120 and it's use is attributable to advice from jtara92101.  I found it very helpful in fine tuning my noise elimination search.  By setting it on 131.65 and double checking on results from the AM radio search I found that a few of the noise generators from the AM radio search were false positives and not very noise at 131.65.  With the Yaseu radio finding noise is relatively easy and I used a two step process.

 

Step one for large noise generators: I just set the antenna on any one of the branch circuit wires in the electrical panel and switched off breakers until I found the ones that significantly dropped the noise that was being transmitted back to the electrical panel.  Then it was relatively easy to track down the noisy device on that branch circuit by using the radio to listen for a drop in noise as I disabled individual devices on that branch circuit.  Since some devices are very noisy you don't have to put the radio on the noisy device.  You can just put the radio on any device or wire within that branch circuit as a very noisy device will pollute the entire branch circuit with noise.  Once you unplug the noisy device that branch circuit's noise profile will drop.  This process works well to eliminate large noise generators and must be done before trying to find moderate noise generators as the large noise generators will mask the noise of the moderate noise generators.

 

Step two for the low to moderate noise generators:  With the large noise generators disabled, I took the Yaseu radio to every electrical device in the house and either turned the device on/off or plugged/unplugged the device and watched the scale of the radio's display. You have to watch the scale as some devices will not necessarily change the static profile you hear over the speaker but they will move the scale on the display.  In doing so I found that a number of my LED lighting circuits, my solar system's monitoring device and some linear fluorescent fixtures with electronic ballasts were fairly noisy.  Not all of the LED and fluorescent fixture were noisy so one cannot make a blanket assumption.  While this second step will find noisy devices, these devices were not so load that they carried noise all the way back to the electrical panel to any significant degree.  

 

With the LED bulbs, I used a variety of different bulbs when I installed LED a few years ago.  I installed the LED bulbs concurrent with installing my Insteon network and my only criterea for bulb selection at that time was their ability to dim well.  I did not understand the ability of LED bulbs to generate noise and the affect of that noise on my Insteon network.  Additionally, I did not attribute that noise, which I didn't know about, to the performance issues with the Insteon network as I just assumed the performance issues were inherent to the network.  At that time my Insteon network worked decently.  Now, however, with the ability to measure noise, I can go back and select LED bulbs that both dim well and are quiet

 

In going back an checking on all of my LED lighting circuits I found that some varieties of LED bulbs are very noisy and that every bulb of that variety/brand/model was noisy and I have to replace all of those bulbs as none were quiet.  However, other varieties/models were generally quiet but one or two bulbs were noisy.  I don't know if those bulbs started out quiet and turned noisy or if they had always been noisy from the manufacturer.  

 

It has been three years since I installed my LED bulbs and in those three years all manufacturers have discontinued the models I bought and have introduced new "updated" models.  I found that manufacturers that made a bulb that was quiet three years ago, when selecting their new model of that bulb now, it is noisy (so much for progress).  I found this increased noisyness with all of the bulbs I previously used from 3 years ago.  As such I needed to find new LED bulbs.  The majority of the bulbs in my house are installed in can lights and are BR30 or BR40 shaped bulbs.  In the last week I have tested every model of BR30 and BR40 soft white dimmable bulbs from Home Depot and Lowes.  I did not find a quiet bulb at Home Depot.  The CREE and Ecosmart bulbs from Home Depot in the BR30 and BR40 shape were all noisy.  I found two bulbs from Lowes that were quite.  These were the Sylvania and Utilitech soft white 65 watt equivalant LED in BR30.  Both dim well and make essentially no noise.  I prefer the color rendition of the Sylvania bulbs and chose those.  I also found the Sylvania 85 Watt equivalent in BR40 to make essentially no noise and it dims well.  

 

I still have noise from my fluorescents.  I have ordered a number of XPNR inline filters to hopefully quiet those fixtures down once the filters arrive.   I did have one XPNR that I installed on a light fixture's low voltage driver but it did not seem to have much effect on noise reduction.  Is the XPNR mainly for quieting down motors and doesn't help much with electronic light fixture ballasts?  

 

Steps taken thus far has greatly improved my Insteon network's performance.  I still want to eliminate the noise from the fluorescent fixtures but since doing the above described work the response speed of my devices has increased to be essentially instantaneous and 100% response from all devices.  Previous to purging the noise from my system I was experiencing devices that were slow to respond when I triggered a large scene and I occasionally had devices that did not respond when called on by a large scene.  I also had occasional random on events.  All of these issues seem to be resolved.  However, it has only been a few days since purging most of the noise from my network so I don't want to say that it is done yet.  However, I can say that the removal of the noise generators that I have found thus far has greatly improved the performance of my Insteon network.  

 

Thanks all for the help!!

[Teken]

Well done Sir!

 

Using the two methods outlined above indeed offers real world insight about what electronics in the home can impact the Insteon mesh network. As you noted both methods offers different perspective and insight about an electronic load. It doesn't take much time to learn and get real good in defining a low, mid, high noise maker using these basic diagnostic tools.

 

Keep in mind the reality is most people aren't in the position to replace / remove every device that is deemed a noise maker / signal sucker.

 

The idea is just to help narrow down and identify *Things* so when finances, time, resources, permit that you do so. Thanks for circling back with the group and sharing your results as I hope discussions like these will offer others the same.

[DAlter01]

Teken,

 

With the XPNR filters, do you find those to be effective in reducing noise from wired in electronic ballasts of fluorescent fixtures?  I'd place the filter right at the ballast.

[Teken]

Teken,

 

With the XPNR filters, do you find those to be effective in reducing noise from wired in electronic ballasts of fluorescent fixtures?  I'd place the filter right at the ballast.

 

As you noted with the Filter Linc sometimes the noise is just too strong to be eliminated. But you have a 50/50 chance in seeing positive results. Keep in mind once you place the filter at that location the reliance on a strong Insteon RF mesh is paramount. You may also consider doing a quick search in this forum on *Snubbers*. 

 

You will find Snub filters being cheaper and offer the same or better performance in terms of resolving injected noise issues on the power line. The only caveat is please ensure you purchase the correct Snubber which incorporates the capacitance which won't absorb the Insteon power line signal.

 

If this was me I would opt for the Snubber vs XPNR only because they are cheaper . . .

[DAlter01]

I take it the XPNR and/or Snubber is essentially a signal sucker that we intentionally place into the system?  Also, you are starting to talk above me on the Snubbers and their capacitance.  While I can pronunciate capacitance that doesn't mean I know how to use the word correctly without embarrassing myself LOL.  

 

I think we I hear you saying is to make sure the Snub filter is one that absorbs the appropriate signal that we are trying to reduce.  While I understand frequency, what I don't understand is how to relate capacitance to frequency if that is what I need to do.  Can you help me out what what capacitance of Snub filter you suggest to reduce the unwanted noise at the correct frequency?   Essentially, what are the specs of the snubber I'd want to track down?

[Teken]

I take it the XPNR and/or Snubber is essentially a signal sucker that we intentionally place into the system?  Also, you are starting to talk above me on the Snubbers and their capacitance.  While I can pronunciate capacitance that doesn't mean I know how to use the word correctly without embarrassing myself LOL.  

 

I think we I hear you saying is to make sure the Snub filter is one that absorbs the appropriate signal that we are trying to reduce.  While I understand frequency, what I don't understand is how to relate capacitance to frequency if that is what I need to do.  Can you help me out what what capacitance of Snub filter you suggest to reduce the unwanted noise at the correct frequency?   Essentially, what are the specs of the snubber I'd want to track down?

 

I'll do you one better here is the exact model to purchase if you believe this is the correct solution for you. For $6.50 a piece when compared to $20.XX plus for a XPNR can you really go wrong even if it doesn't work?

 

https://www.carltonbates.com/Transient-Suppressors/RED-LION-CONTROLS/RC-Suppressor-250VAC-DC/SNUB0000/p/78073698939-1?gclid=Cj0KEQjwvdSvBRDahavi3KPGrvUBEiQATZ9v0C3LMa_qRH27wNQUgO3JHujX8YrYIn6h0ovXd8rzx2gaAmwR8P8HAQ

[DAlter01]

Thank you!!

[Teken]

No problem, if you do a quick search in this forum(s) there is another (Finer Insteon Tuned) snubber that is listed in Mouser etc. I only offer this insight because its much closer to the Insteon frequency as well as being cheaper too. The only difference between this RC network snubber is it has no leads and is a raw part.

 

So you would need to solder two little wires, shrink wrap, to mimic what you see in the Red Lion offering which is a finished product. The raw part is going for something crazy stupid like $2.XX I believe so this allows *Anyone* the ability to purchase lots of filters or those who do large installs the filter tools needed.

 

Please do circle back with the group as to what you do and the end results.

 

As I am sure this information will prove helpful to others down the road . . .

 

Cheers! 

[Brian H]

A snubber is just a capacitor and small resister in series. Inside a single plastic package. Normally used to suppress noise spikes. From things like relay contacts switching items on and off.

 

The capacitors size. Will determine how effective it is at the 131.65KHz Insteon frequency.

 

The Red Lion Teken pointed out has a .1uF capacitor and 47 Ohm resistor in it. It will reduce noise on the Insteon power line frequency but also absorb the Insteon signal also.

 

The XPNR does absorb the X10 frequency of 120KHz and the Insteon 131.65Khz is close also.

 

Schematic of the Leviton branded part number of the XPNR.

6289_Schematic_vA.pdf

[Teken]

This is the Snubber which is the raw part which is less of a Insteon signal sucker then the Red Lion: http://www.newark.com/roxburgh/xe1201/surge-suppressor/dp/01M9475 As Brian H correctly pointed out the Snubber in a true sense isn't *Tuned* but using the correct RC network in this case resistance will offer similar results like the Insteon Filter Linc with out much *Suck* of the signal.

 

At $2.80 a piece you really can't go wrong with either the Red Lion or the raw part listed here . . .

[DAlter01]

I just ordered two of the Red Lion snub filters Teken speced.  I'll report back on which, if either, seems to work on the electronic ballast noise.  

 

Brian,  I had not come across the Leviton 6289.  It looks to be the same (on the exterior) as the XPNR.  Is is the same internally?  Also, in finding the Leviton 6289, I came across the Leviton 6287.  It looks like an interesting option also if still available.  It looks to be out of stock which I'm thinking means it isn't made anymore.

[Brian H]

Leviton dropped all of their X10 compatible devices awhile back. I doubt most of their devices are still available.

 

ACT Solutions A10 {X10 compatible with added features} devices have also been discontinued. So things like their AF120 15 amp filters are also hard to find these days.

 

The 6289 was the Leviton part number used for the noise reducer.

The X10Pro Cross Reference chart indicated their XPNR and Leviton where interchangeable.

 

The small 5 amp 6287 X10 wired in filter. Was used in many X10 installations.

As long as the maximum 5 amps was not exceeded. It was small in size and could be fit into larger sized electrical boxes behind a module or sometimes in the Load being controlled.

[DAlter01]

I’m reporting back on my noise maker/signal sucker removal progress and the use of Red Lion snub filters and XPNRs on noise from electronic ballasts of fluorescents.  Unfortunately I cannot make a definitive statement of the effectiveness of the snub filters or the XPNRs. 

 

I purchased a used YASEU radio on ebay and tuned it to 131.65 and found a bunch of noise makers.  The vast majority of the noise makers were plug in devices that I eliminating with plug in filters (FilterLincs or XPPFs).  After this exercise the only significant noise makers left in my system were 5 fluorescent strip lights in various places.  These strip lights were 2013 vintage powering T5 bulbs and had electronic ballasts. I could not eliminate their noise with plug in filters and so have tried the snub filters and XPNRs. 

 

However, prior to installing the snubs and XPNRs I also isolated all suspect signal suckers with FilterLincs and XPPF’s.   After eliminating these suspect signal suckers and the known noisemakers (other than the ballasts) my system seems to work perfectly.  My scene tests are good, all devices in my system respond immediately to all commands (even in very large scenes), and I am not experiencing any random on/off issues or devices that fail to respond.  I've gone through 7-10 days of seemingly perfect operation.

 

Despite my system working well I installed a snub filter on one of my electronic ballast fluorescent fixtures and an XPNR on another.  I measured the noise generated by each of these fixtures with my YASEU radio both before the installation and after the installation on each of these fixtures.  I saw no noticeable change in the noise emanated by either of these fixtures. 

 

The snub filters and/or XPNRs may have reduced the noise by a percentage that I could not detect with the crude measurement device I was using.  And, if my Insteon system were having performance issues, this percentage could have been sufficient to allow my system to function as intended.  Additionally, these ballasts could be signal suckers.  Since the YASEU radio does not measure signal suckers I have no way of knowing if the snub filters and/or XPNRs would have any impact on minimizing the potential signal sucking impact of these ballasts.

 

To do a proper test I should have installed the snub filters and XPNRs while my Insteon system was still experiencing problems and see if there was benefit.  I guess the lesson I’ve learned is that all noise does not need to be taken out of a system for a system to work correctly.  And it is worthwhile to identify the noise makers (AM radio or YASEU radio) and likely signal suckers (TVs, chargers, cable boxes, etc) and isolate those and then perform a performance test of the system before making the assumption that great effort needs to be made in eliminate all noisy devices.  In hindsight my process next time would be as follows:

 

1.  Confirm you have good radio communication using the 4 tap test.  Make sure your phases are bridged, etc.

2.  Using a AM or YASEU radio identify all noisy plug in devices and isolate those with FilterLincs  or X10 filters.  Test the Insteon system.  If it works you are done.

3.  If the Insteon system isn't working correctly, isolate the likely signal suckers.  Test the Insteon system.  If it works you are done.

4.  If the Insteon system isn't working correctly, start looking at your wire-in devices as being noise-makers and signal suckers.  I didn't have to reach this level but it seems that would have been the next step.

 

In my house I have many potential noise makers/signal suckers.  I found that the biggest noise makers were:  1) a portion of my power supplies for household electronics (not all of them).  One of these was extremely noisy and was probably responsible for the vast majority of my issues. 2) a portion of my LED bulbs (not all of them).  I found that roughly a third of my LED bulbs were noisy and I found a brand/model that was not noisy and replaced the noisy ones with the new ones.  3) Cable TV boxes - all were noisy.  4)a charger for a cordless drill was fairly noisy.  5) my wired in fluorescent fixtures - I ended up not needing to isolate these and just left them in place as their noise doesn't seem to be hurting the performance of the system.

[Teken]

Great follow up and thank you!

 

RE: Signal Suckers -> Agreed its very difficult to measure such issues with out actually removing the target device for comparisons. Almost anything with a high value capacitor will act as a filter to absorb the Insteon signal. 

[bobchap]

My compliments to all. This has been a useful and informative discussion.

 

Sent from my SM-G930U using Tapatalk

[tmorse305]

When I was using X-10 I came across this device for analyzing signal problems.  One of the modes was noise detection.  It looks at noise > 110kHz around the zero crossings, 0.5mS after the zero cross and noise across a range of 0.2- 0.9mS.  I still use this mode with my Insteon network when I'm looking for noise sources.

 

The worst offender for noise in my house was the well pump controller.  It is a Franklin Electric SubDrive system and the noise from it was so severe that it halted all communication when running.  I was able to reduce it enough using 2,  20 Amp filters, but it still raises the overall noise floor when running.