LED A19 that actually dim like they should?

[Andrew]

Hi everyone,

 

Can someone recommend LED A19 lamps that actually dim like you'd expect?

I have some cheap ones that only seem to dim down a little bit - maybe to 60% brightness.

 

Any suggestions appreciated.

 

FWIW I plan to use with a number of both Z-Wave and Insteon dimmers.

 

Thanks,

Andrew

[mwester]

http://www.usa.philips.com/c-m-li/warm-glow-dimmable-led-lighting

 

I've tried a bunch of LED bulbs; these are the ones I'm sticking with anymore.

[Teken]

I've had great experience with the following brands: Phillips, Luminus, Lighting Science, Sylvania. Regardless of the brand and model LED bulb it really comes down to your own personal environment. Many have seen great results from Cree, HD Eco Smart, Fiet, etc.

 

But later many have seen the opposite in terms of reliability, dimming, and Insteon injected noise.

 

I always suggest a person buy a few random samples of interest and test them with their hardware in place. If a bulbs passes the initial tests for light output, color, dimming, and the most important aspect Insteon friendly behavior. Your next step is to purchase a case lot and insert the same and rinse & repeat the tests.

 

Doing so will identify good vs bad units which you can simply return to the store for a refund. Going this route saves time, effort, and money while doing this task once. As an aside if you have a Ikea store near by I've read from various users the Ikea branded LED bulbs offer some great value in terms of price vs light quality.

[jtara92101]

It is IMPOSSIBLE for them to "dim like they should" using an external household SCR-type dimmer. Plugging retrofit LED bulbs into existing sockets and then controlling them with household dimmers is a transitional hack.

 

PROPER dimming of LEDs can be done using dedicated dimmer circuitry meant to operate LEDs, where the dimmer circuit is fed by contast UN-dimmed 120V. Example: Phillips Hue. The dimmer is inside the bulb, but can't be operated by a wall dimmer. Only upon RF command. (Phillips Hue just used as one example of proper dimming of LEDs available today. Other examples include LED strips using low-voltage dimmers made specifically for dimming LED strips and - again - NOT dimmed by a standard wall dimmer.

 

A PROPER dimmer can give "architectural" dimming of 1% or less.

 

The BEST that can be expected from a hacky "dimmable" retrofit LED is 10%. The very, very best.

 

Partial mitigations: 

 

- Bulbs that maintain a constant low brightness from 0-10%. This is better than just cutting off at 10%.

 

- Bulbs that have "color temperature drops with brightness". It's a trick. There are a few "always on" LEDs that have a lower color temperature. As you reduce brightness, THOSE LEDs stay on at full brightness, giving the appearance of lowered color temperature. This also achieves the goal of keeping the buib "on" below 10%.

 

Don't mix bulb brands or even lots if you have multiple bulbs on a circuit. It is very visually annoying when they cut-out at different brightnesses (cheap bulbs) or if they have different constant on levels at <10%.

 

General consumer (and your) expectation is unrealistic. It CAN NOT be done! Manufacturers have, though, made great strides and use ridiculously complex circuitry to do something which is ultimately completely unnecessary and silly. It is transitional, retrofit technology.

[larryllix]

Most of my bulbs dropout between 7 to 12% on an Insteon Switchlinc Dimmer.

 

Even though a bulb will dim down to 7% I dont attempt to light them to that but usually only down to about 8 or 9% as it keeps them reliably turning on and that is about the point of having too little brilliance to be useful.

 

Sent from a tiny keyboard. Response may be brief.

[nwchicago]

I use the FEIT LED bulbs that Costco sells. The most recent seem better than those from 6 and 12 months ago. Using an Insteon dimmer the performance is good and doesn't feel like it moves in large steps as my old decora paddles dimmer.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Teken]

I use the FEIT LED bulbs that Costco sells. The most recent seem better than those from 6 and 12 months ago. Using an Insteon dimmer the performance is good and doesn't feel like it moves in large steps as my old decora paddles dimmer.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

This has been my personal observations as well regarding the Feit LED bulbs. For what ever reason this brand along with the Cree bulbs sold at Home Depot have a large variability in operational life and Insteon performance. During the quarterly *Energy Star* saving events that our POCO sponsors.

 

A few of us bought one pallet of the Feit dimmable bulbs in 60 / 100 watts. 

 

More than half of the bulbs were returned due to hum / buzzing noise, erratic dimming, to injected noise affecting Insteon switches. I was a little surprised given these bulbs weren't cheap and were all single packs. Oddly, the ones that came in the multi packs of six have been operating fine?!?

 

Lastly, the bulbs that indicated dimming down to 1% had ranges from (perceived eye) of 5~10%. Given there were only 25 one percent bulbs in the test case I don't know if that's a qualifier. But of the 25 bulbs only 3 could be dimmed to advertised 1% brightness.

 

LED technology has come a long way in terms of price vs performance. But, there is still a long ways to go for reliability, and lighting color rendering. As an aside has anyone ever been able to find a short A19 100 watt bulb that is similar in height as a 60??

 

Been looking what seems like forever but haven't found such an animal in the local stores.

[jtara92101]

Lastly, the bulbs that indicated dimming down to 1% had ranges from (perceived eye) of 5~10%. Given there were only 25 one percent bulbs in the test case I don't know if that's a qualifier. But of the 25 bulbs only 3 could be dimmed to advertised 1% brightness.

 

 

Do they really go down to 1%? Or just not shut off until 1%?

 

The right way to test this is a dark room (or a box...) and light meter. One with bluetooth or wifi would be ideal.

 

Vary brightness with ISY admin console or REST commands. NOT with an Insteon switch paddle directly. Insteon switch paddle brightness increments are not fine enough.

 

You could automate the test, which is why I mentioned REST. With a desktop/laptop/Raspberry Pi, you could adjust the brightness level using REST command to the ISY, take a light reading, then adjust light level again, continue to repeat until you have collected a response curve. You probably should allow some settling time between adjustment and reading, to avoid flicker affecting result. Might be easily done using a bash script on Linux, a fairly simple Python program, (or insert your favorite scripting language here), etc.

 

Of course, you are going to get curves that look nothing like the perfect linear ramp we might imagine. First off, human eye response is nonlinear, and both the LED circuitry and the dimmer will have their own ideas of the right curve to use. And the dimmer doesn't "know" if it is LED or incandescent, and they would have different "native" response curves. We can only hope that the dimmer assumes incandescent, and the ridiculously complex circuit (thank goodness it's all in a chip!) inside the LED retrofit bulb makes a valiant attempt at emulating an incandescent response curve. 

 

But in any case, you will be able to see what part of the low-end is "flat", what part is 0%, etc.

 

I predict the curves would be wildly different between brands. And sometimes between bulbs.

 

A disciplined measurement approach as above would enable you to identify brands and specific products that are at least consistent bulb to bulb, in a scientific manner.

 

Edit: One More Thing. Many retrofit bulbs will act differently depending on whether the previous state was off or on. For example, my living room bulbs (Commercial Electric screw-in retrofits for 4" cans) will "dim" from 8% all the way down to 1%. When I say "dim" I mean "stay on at the same level". But if you go from off and increase, they will not initially light until 8%.

 

So, if following the scientific approach as above, one should perform the test twice, once from 0-100 and once from 100-0.

 

Insteon brightness is in 256 steps. So, will not align perfectly with round percents. It is difficult to do with the slider switches in the admin console, as it doesn't show you the precise level. It is best done with REST API if you want accurate results.

[Teken]

Do they really go down to 1%? Or just not shut off until 1%?

 

The right way to test this is a dark room (or a box...) and light meter. One with bluetooth or wifi would be ideal.

 

Vary brightness with ISY admin console or REST commands. NOT with an Insteon switch paddle directly. Insteon switch paddle brightness increments are not fine enough.

 

You could automate the test, which is why I mentioned REST. With a desktop/laptop/Raspberry Pi, you could adjust the brightness level using REST command to the ISY, take a light reading, then adjust light level again, continue to repeat until you have collected a response curve. You probably should allow some settling time between adjustment and reading, to avoid flicker affecting result. Might be easily done using a bash script on Linux, a fairly simple Python program, (or insert your favorite scripting language here), etc.

 

Of course, you are going to get curves that look nothing like the perfect linear ramp we might imagine. First off, human eye response is nonlinear, and both the LED circuitry and the dimmer will have their own ideas of the right curve to use. And the dimmer doesn't "know" if it is LED or incandescent, and they would have different "native" response curves. We can only hope that the dimmer assumes incandescent, and the ridiculously complex circuit (thank goodness it's all in a chip!) inside the LED retrofit bulb makes a valiant attempt at emulating an incandescent response curve. 

 

But in any case, you will be able to see what part of the low-end is "flat", what part is 0%, etc.

 

I predict the curves would be wildly different between brands. And sometimes between bulbs.

 

A disciplined measurement approach as above would enable you to identify brands and specific products that are at least consistent bulb to bulb, in a scientific manner.

 

LOL . . .

 

My use case is more inline with the majority of what real world use would be. Not very many people are going to activate a computer to make a light bulb dim. A lay person is simply going to press on a switch (99% of the populace) and expect X to happen.

 

In this case 3 out of the 25 dimmable Feit LED bulbs would dim to 1% per their claim. The other 22 bulbs would hover around 5~10% before going out. All of the bulbs were tested on the (same) switches and plugin units in my home. Now, using a program didn't make the bulbs go to 1% either so this isn't a software issue vs hardware issue.

 

When I think of Feit in terms of quality it comes in at the big 3 (Ford, GM, Chrysler) - Just mediocre performance for a value price. Its not to say larger well known brands like Phillips, Sylvania haven't released a few turds of their own. But they have proven to offer higher quality products which are used in all commercial and high end lighting venues.

 

One is hard pressed to see any serious buildings using the Feit brand besides in a consumer arena.  

 

Then again the Luminus brand was pretty much unknown to me seven years ago. I placed them in the 3rd tier range of companies well below the big 3. Surprisingly, the Luminus brand has excelled and outperformed all other brands from A~Z in my home and millions more.

 

As of this writing the bulk of my lighting is from Luminus and they are simply outstanding in arctic cold weather performance and doesn't impact Insteon performance. 

[jtara92101]

When I think of Feit in terms of quality it comes in at the big 3 (Ford, GM, Chrysler) - Just mediocre performance for a value price. Its not to say larger well known brands like Phillips, Sylvania haven't released a few turds of their own. But they have proven to offer higher quality products which are used in all commercial and high end lighting venues.

 

 

F E I T, not F I A T.

 

It's not the "fix it again, Tony" company.

 

And, anyway, Fiat *is* a Big 3 company. They own Chrysler.

 

You CANNOT set an Insteon dimmer to 1% from the paddle. Strange but true. The paddles only do 32 steps. 

[Teken]

As stated up top using the paddle has no problem fading down and holding a 1% dim level for 3 bulbs. The other 22 bulbs do not even though they state they can.

 

Meaning the variability of the product is right up their with the big 3.

 

I also did not mistaken Feit with Fiat but was making the comparisons that this company more often than not produced some of the worst vehicles in the industry! Given all three have been making cars for decades and still can't get it right when compared to the Germans / Japanese.

 

Yes, there are edge cases where the imports have failed and had massive recalls.

 

Think Toyota, Volkswagen etc.

 

My point is Feit branded bulbs are similar to quality of domestic car makers.

 

 

=========================

 

The highest calling in life is to serve ones country faithfully - Teach others what can be. Do what is right and not what is popular.

[jtara92101]

As stated up top using the paddle has no problem fading down and holding a 1% dim level for 3 bulbs. The other 22 bulbs do not even though they state they can.

 

 

It doesn't. It CAN'T.

 

Insteon paddles only use 32 steps. 100/32 = 3.125% per step. The first increment (if you are agile enough to set it!) is 3.125%.

 

Its possible there are other-brand licensed Insteon dimmers that can dim in finer steps. 

 

Through a PLM, you can set 256 steps, or 0.39% per step.

 

Put another way, it takes 8 ISY/PLM/protocol steps to equal one paddle step. The paddle does not offer nearly as fine control of level.

 

My FEIT/FIAT comment was in jest.

[Andrew]

Thanks all - 

 

I found a bulb that, performance-wise, works pretty well; it's a Philips 5.5W "Warm Glow" A15 (I don't care if it's a "trick" or not) and dims much more nicely than the cheap other bulbs we got (forget what they are.)

 

However, these apparently have a "sparkle effect" (not sure why) but when installed in the chandelier, which has frosted glass, the hotspots from the "sparkle effect" are noticeable.

 

That said, it performs well and dims fairly low (I do not need 3% dimming) and I'll be looking for a non-sparkle-effect version.

 

cheers

Andrew

[Brian H]

You did verify the cheaper LED bulbs where Dimmable?

I have seen many LED bulbs that are not. Some had it marked on the bulb others only on the outside box.

[Andrew]

Yes, definitely...

 

[larryllix]

I like to write ISY programs to detect the dim (paddle long tap down) and have ISY set the lowest usage level on the Switchlinc dimmer. I dont have much usage for dimming lights by holding down a paddle and overshooting and undershooting.

 

When I want certain lights very low I don't want a paddle dexterity challenge every time.

 

The lowest level of the bulbs are determined by ISY experimentation with level commands sent to find the unreliability point of the bulb and then a few percentage points are added back to the program setting level.

 

@jtara. Please mark your humour. I figured it was humour, and most of us, here, like some humour, but it can and does cause some bad outbreaks in forums. I have broken this rule a few times and questioned or maybe sometimes not (and just hurt feelings) it has a nasty potential. What seems very obvious to some may not be to others with different cultures and backgrounds. yup PITA.

[jtara92101]

(I don't care if it's a "trick" or not) 

 

Nor do I. It's a great trick!

 

It takes less ridiculous circuitry to keep a few LEDs running at a constant level regardless of input voltage than it does to set them to any arbitrary selected level regardless of input voltage. And never mind that the input is really an ugly chopped signal that might be chopped at either the head or tail of the waveform, depending on the dimmer.

 

That, and you get an emulation of the color characteristics of a tungsten filament bulb. If you like that sort of thing.

[larryllix]

Nor do I. It's a great trick!

 

It takes less ridiculous circuitry to keep a few LEDs running at a constant level regardless of input voltage than it does to set them to any arbitrary selected level regardless of input voltage. And never mind that the input is really an ugly chopped signal that might be chopped at either the head or tail of the waveform, depending on the dimmer.

 

That, and you get an emulation of the color characteristics of a tungsten filament bulb. If you like that sort of thing.

I don't find the Philips WarmGlow^TM bulbs emulate incandescent well at all. I find the range 2700K down to 2200K way too orange for any dimmed incandescent I have seen.

 

I would find the range of 3000K+ down to about 2500K much more useful, ranging  from a work surface light to a late night relaxing, and circadian rhythm promoting, colour temperature.

 

2200K matches some sodium street lighting heavy orange glow in the bulbs I have seen. That colour temperature was not a desired lighting colour, but rather a negative side-effect of the high efficiency bulb design.

 

 

I understand the "trick" term as not being very native to the components and taking much more electronic complexity to achieve, reducing the reliability of the bulb as a whole. I found it very descriptive and mentally accurate.

[Andrew]

When I want certain lights very low I don't want a paddle dexterity challenge every time.

 

Hi Larry,

 

I actually really like the dimmer - you can set a low dim point and it just fades down to that level. Really nice out-of-the-box performance.

[baabm]

Anyone,

I am in the market to buy 3 color changeable bulbs (2 high hats and 1 standard bulb) that I would like to control from my ISY via the NR capability. The threads I have read are so confusing that I can't figure out what to buy. Can you help me by providing an example of bulbs, and controllers that would make the most sense for me. I don't want to buy an RPI or anything else to program, just some bulbs (and controllers if needed) that I can control the color of and the brighttness of thru ISY - mostly on timed events. For the most part, I think all 3 bulbs will be set to the same color.

Thanks, Bob

[jtara92101]

Anyone,

I am in the market to buy 3 color changeable bulbs (2 high hats and 1 standard bulb) that I would like to control from my ISY via the NR capability. The threads I have read are so confusing that I can't figure out what to buy. Can you help me by providing an example of bulbs, and controllers that would make the most sense for me. I don't want to buy an RPI or anything else to program, just some bulbs (and controllers if needed) that I can control the color of and the brighttness of thru ISY - mostly on timed events. For the most part, I think all 3 bulbs will be set to the same color.

Thanks, Bob

What is a "high hat"?

 

What is NR?

 

Link to the product?

 

Probably should be another post.

[baabm]

A high hat is sometimes called a "CAN" light, it is embedded in the ceiling and uses a large bulb that looks something like a floodlight. 

 

NR is network resources and is a subscription feature that you can purchase for your ISY that allows you to control some non insteon devices. For example, I can open and close my Lutron shades by sending commands to the Lutron controller from the ISY via the Network Resource.

[larryllix]

A high hat is sometimes called a "CAN" light, it is embedded in the ceiling and uses a large bulb that looks something like a floodlight. 

 

NR is network resources and is a subscription feature that you can purchase for your ISY that allows you to control some non insteon devices. For example, I can open and close my Lutron shades by sending commands to the Lutron controller from the ISY via the Network Resource.

I have noticed many Canadians call these "Pot Lights", while many Americans call them "Can Lights". I had encountered the term "high hat" before but didn't know what is was, either. The name doesn't seem to reflect the fixture with any similarities, I can detect.

[Andrew]

 I had encountered the term "high hat" before but didn't know what is was, either. The name doesn't seem to reflect the fixture with any similarities, I can detect.

Because it's shaped like this:

 

https://www.top-hats.com/Images/Rotator%20Images/11%20Black%20Billboard.png