MrBill Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 Hope I'm picking the correct board for this post..... Also, I've tried various internet searches, unfortunately due to massive online talk about Ring WIFI/Video Doorbells any search for what I'm attempting to do seems impossible. If a different thread already exists just point me to it. Background: My house has a "front" doorbell. It does not have a "rear" doorbell. The standard doorbell chime, of course, has provisions for "front" (ding-dong) and "rear" (ding) sounds. (I've also extended the primary original chime using Carlon Extend-A-Chime products, this works great. The "transmitter" is a simple 3-wire RF transmitter that wires directly to chime itself.) Since the "rear" terminal was unused, I want my ISY-994 to be able to ring the "rear" doorbell. (I want to use it as a door chime actually, all the doors have an Insteon Recessed Door Sensor or the surface mount.) I also wanted the ISY to know when someone was ringing the "front" doorbell. I also wanted the ISY to know when my builder installed interconnected 120v BRK/First Alert Smoke alarms were in alarm mode. 1 output 2 inputs needed. After some research, I ordered: Smartenit EZIO2X4 (sidenote: WOW this product is poorly documented, took me hours to figure a couple things out) 2- relays with 24v coils BRK RM4 relay. The "front" doorbell part of the project works perfectly. I used one of the 24v relays in parallel with the chime coil. Once I finally figured out how to use the I1+ and I1- terminals of the EZIO2X4 with dry contacts (not well documented). When a person presses the front door button I now receive a phone notification. Works Perfect. Same with the smoke alarms basically. The RM4 relay is wired to I2 of the EZIO2X4. Works Perfect. The Problem: I've only had marginal success with the ISY ringing the "rear" door chime. Using R1 relay on the EZIO2X4 is too slow by itself. That is, "Set Chime On, Set Chime Off" in a program doesn't happen fast enough. (I expected this actually, due to the nature of Insteon.) First try, of course, was to simply use R1 as the "button" in the "rear" circuit. It probably takes over 1 second tho for R1 to cycle on/off via a program. It's too long, the chime coil buzzes (which will likely burn the coil up eventually), the Extend-A-Chimes remotes repeat chime several times. Failure. I anticipated exactly this before I started. Next try, using a second 24 volt coil relay, again the relay coil is parallel to the chime coil, sort of. The chime coil side is also wired thru NC - C relay contacts of relay. When the relay energizes it breaks the connection to the chime coil. This unfortunately happens too fast. 50% weak chime/50% no chime, the Extend-A-Chimes fire more often but still not 100%. Next try, no doorbell coil, just extend-A-Chime. This fails too. Wired without the relay contacts in the middle the remote chime repeats several times. Using the NC - C relay contacts as above apparently it's still too fast. Frequently rung it seems to work well enough, however if it sits (I presume capacitors discharging) the next ring will not fire the remote chimes (I'm guessing because it happened too fast to charge the capacitors that power the RF transmitter, ringing in succession however works because capacitors have retained charge.) Solutions that interests me: Figuring out how to energize the 24V relay for about 300 to 500 milliseconds, to simulate a human pushing a doorbell button. Bonus if time is adjustable. One idea I've had his using an Arduino in the middle. Input rise from EZIO2X4 R1 energizes one of the outputs briefly, no repeat until input falls. I haven't actually tried to design this beyond concept yet, but it seems feasible. The factor I don't like is having another externally powered device (Arduino) involved. I found a very expensive ($189) programmable relay that looked like it would do the trick, but that's too expensive. I looked thru hobby relay boards (the $10-$20 type) for something with time delay but they all seem to be created for the opposite problem, holding the relay contacts longer than the coil is energized, or the many thousands designed for the HVAC industry that prevent re-energizing too soon (i.e. Compressor delay). Momentary relay doesn't seem to be a thing. I can think of a solution that uses 2 regular 24v coil and one latching relay, there must be a better way tho... I don't know how to design a simple timer circuit, but if anyone can point me to something, I can order parts and solder very well. I'm also open to pretty much any means of communication from the ISY994i ZW/IR Pro. I know nothing about Z-wave, but have the ability. (Z-wave wasn't why I picked that model and so far haven't used Z-wave.) Something I'm not interested in: Different Annunciation. My current doorbell system works great (the extend-A-Chime remotes even work in an outbuilding and by the pool--I don't need to re-invent that), I want to make the existing annunciation system work by simulating a doorbell button push using a relay. EXIO2X4 Problems: If you landed on this post because a search engine dropped you here from an EXIO2X4 search. Something that is VERY VERY important that is VERY VERY poorly documented regarding Smartenit EXIO2X4: If you are NOT using I3/AN1 or I4/AN2 you absolutely MUST jumper those inputs to GND. What happens if you don't is the EXIO2X4 will generate an endless stream of Insteon traffic that will jam your Insteon network. If you ARE using I3/AN1 or I4/AN2 be vary careful what you connect, something that clearly pulls high or grounds, anything that floats will cause TONS of Insteon traffic. Link to comment
giomania Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 Hope I'm picking the correct board for this post..... Also, I've tried various internet searches, unfortunately due to massive online talk about Ring WIFI/Video Doorbells any search for what I'm attempting to do seems impossible. If a different thread already exists just point me to it. Background: My house has a "front" doorbell. It does not have a "rear" doorbell. The standard doorbell chime, of course, has provisions for "front" (ding-dong) and "rear" (ding) sounds. (I've also extended the primary original chime using Carlon Extend-A-Chime products, this works great. The "transmitter" is a simple 3-wire RF transmitter that wires directly to chime itself.) Since the "rear" terminal was unused, I want my ISY-994 to be able to ring the "rear" doorbell. (I want to use it as a door chime actually, all the doors have an Insteon Recessed Door Sensor or the surface mount.) I also wanted the ISY to know when someone was ringing the "front" doorbell. I also wanted the ISY to know when my builder installed interconnected 120v BRK/First Alert Smoke alarms were in alarm mode. 1 output 2 inputs needed. After some research, I ordered: Smartenit EZIO2X4 (sidenote: WOW this product is poorly documented, took me hours to figure a couple things out) 2- relays with 24v coils BRK RM4 relay. The "front" doorbell part of the project works perfectly. I used one of the 24v relays in parallel with the chime coil. Once I finally figured out how to use the I1+ and I1- terminals of the EZIO2X4 with dry contacts (not well documented). When a person presses the front door button I now receive a phone notification. Works Perfect. Same with the smoke alarms basically. The RM4 relay is wired to I2 of the EZIO2X4. Works Perfect. The Problem: I've only had marginal success with the ISY ringing the "rear" door chime. Using R1 relay on the EZIO2X4 is too slow by itself. That is, "Set Chime On, Set Chime Off" in a program doesn't happen fast enough. (I expected this actually, due to the nature of Insteon.) First try, of course, was to simply use R1 as the "button" in the "rear" circuit. It probably takes over 1 second tho for R1 to cycle on/off via a program. It's too long, the chime coil buzzes (which will likely burn the coil up eventually), the Extend-A-Chimes remotes repeat chime several times. Failure. I anticipated exactly this before I started. Next try, using a second 24 volt coil relay, again the relay coil is parallel to the chime coil, sort of. The chime coil side is also wired thru NC - C relay contacts of relay. When the relay energizes it breaks the connection to the chime coil. This unfortunately happens too fast. 50% weak chime/50% no chime, the Extend-A-Chimes fire more often but still not 100%. Next try, no doorbell coil, just extend-A-Chime. This fails too. Wired without the relay contacts in the middle the remote chime repeats several times. Using the NC - C relay contacts as above apparently it's still too fast. Frequently rung it seems to work well enough, however if it sits (I presume capacitors discharging) the next ring will not fire the remote chimes (I'm guessing because it happened too fast to charge the capacitors that power the RF transmitter, ringing in succession however works because capacitors have retained charge.) Solutions that interests me: Figuring out how to energize the 24V relay for about 300 to 500 milliseconds, to simulate a human pushing a doorbell button. Bonus if time is adjustable. One idea I've had his using an Arduino in the middle. Input rise from EZIO2X4 R1 energizes one of the outputs briefly, no repeat until input falls. I haven't actually tried to design this beyond concept yet, but it seems feasible. The factor I don't like is having another externally powered device (Arduino) involved. I found a very expensive ($189) programmable relay that looked like it would do the trick, but that's too expensive. I looked thru hobby relay boards (the $10-$20 type) for something with time delay but they all seem to be created for the opposite problem, holding the relay contacts longer than the coil is energized, or the many thousands designed for the HVAC industry that prevent re-energizing too soon (i.e. Compressor delay). Momentary relay doesn't seem to be a thing. I can think of a solution that uses 2 regular 24v coil and one latching relay, there must be a better way tho... I don't know how to design a simple timer circuit, but if anyone can point me to something, I can order parts and solder very well. I'm also open to pretty much any means of communication from the ISY994i ZW/IR Pro. I know nothing about Z-wave, but have the ability. (Z-wave wasn't why I picked that model and so far haven't used Z-wave.) Something I'm not interested in: Different Annunciation. My current doorbell system works great (the extend-A-Chime remotes even work in an outbuilding and by the pool--I don't need to re-invent that), I want to make the existing annunciation system work by simulating a doorbell button push using a relay. EXIO2X4 Problems: If you landed on this post because a search engine dropped you here from an EXIO2X4 search. Something that is VERY VERY important that is VERY VERY poorly documented regarding Smartenit EXIO2X4: If you are NOT using I3/AN1 or I4/AN2 you absolutely MUST jumper those inputs to GND. What happens if you don't is the EXIO2X4 will generate an endless stream of Insteon traffic that will jam your Insteon network. If you ARE using I3/AN1 or I4/AN2 be vary careful what you connect, something that clearly pulls high or grounds, anything that floats will cause TONS of Insteon traffic. I'm impressed you went through all that research. I was lazy and just ordered the Insteon doorbell kit! You did make me start to think about possibly using the unused "rear" (ding) sound of my doorbell, as I also don't have a rear bell. I don't have anything relevant to add to assist you, but I will follow this thread with interest. Mark Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment
elvisimprsntr Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 I replaced my chime with an electronic one which has a RF button I placed at my back door and has a different chime. I also use an ELK-930 doorbell detection module and wired to an Elk input. It's designed for use with solenoid chimes, so you will multiple threshold crossings while the chime melody is playing. You can make it work If you set a virtual output in and include in you Elk rules of statement to trigger an action only once for the duration of the melody. Before wiring the 930 directly to the Elk, I wired the 930 to an IOLinc input and wired the relay output to the RF button. I could remotely control my door bell without any trouble. I stopped using the IOLinc because of the high failure rate of the device and for other reasons I was able to free up an Elk zone input. For smoke/co detection, I went with a Kidde RemoteLync detector, which works with any smoke manufactured since the 70's. It has IFTTT support which I can use the maker channel to invoke any ISY action or program. Link to comment
larryllix Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 We use our rear doorbell sound for a "dryer is done" alert. Trouble is after a few years it still makes us think "who is at the door?" for a split second. Usually you can extend the drop out time of a DC relay with a series diode, resistor, and large capacitor across the coil. Link to comment
MrBill Posted June 4, 2017 Author Share Posted June 4, 2017 SOLVED! Eventually I went searching for non-24VAC timing relay solutions. The problem being "24VAC timing relay" searches find millions of solutions for compressor delay for the HVAC world. My thinking was if I could find the right solution at another voltage it would then be easier to craft a search for the same thing but with 24VAC. I happened onto a 5V DC relay timer. That got me thinking because the EXIO2X4 offers a 5 volt output. Goggling to figure out max current on that pin proved that there may or may not be enough output. Shooting this down left room for new thinking! What about timed relay in 12VDC with a 12VDC wall wart to power it? I already installed a duplex receptacle near the ceiling in the laundry room just for the EZIO2X4. (Carefully choosing a horizontal wall wart that could be plugged into the top half of the outlet with the EZIO2X4 in the bottom half.) Amazon delivered both this morning (or should I say the USPS, I'm always amazed the USPS does Sunday deliveries for Amazon). The hardest part was figuring out the programming of the relay. No documentation arrives with the relay board of course, one must rely on the "text picture" from amazon. Eventually I got the board set to mode "P3", with a "t1" time of 00 and a "t2" time of "03" (0.3 seconds) with "C-" (cycle times) set to "01". Essentially: ISY -> Insteon -> EZIO2X4 output R1 -> Qianson 12V relay -> Back Doorbell As noted in the original post the reason for two relay chain is the timing. "Set RearDoorbell On, Set RearDoorbell Off" takes too long due to the nature of Insteon. Adding the timing relay allows us to better simulate a human button press. Specifically in mode P3, the relay closes for .3 seconds and does not re-trigger until the EZIO2X4 R1 relay has turned off and turned back on. No pictures yet. My work is really quite ugly at the moment. Now that I have a working solution I'll order some kind of hoffman box or hinged cabinet and get it looking better, and perhaps try to draw all the circuits in use, in paint or photoshop and post back soon. I'm impressed you went through all that research. I was lazy and just ordered the Insteon doorbell kit! You did make me start to think about possibly using the unused "rear" (ding) sound of my doorbell, as I also don't have a rear bell. I don't have anything relevant to add to assist you, but I will follow this thread with interest.MarkSent from my iPhone using Tapatalk I looked at the Insteon doorbell kit, but it was really a waste in my case, because we have no landline phone to use that input, and because it supplies inputs only, there was no output for my "rear" door desired usage. Now you know how! (see above) Pictures to come. I replaced my chime with an electronic one which has a RF button I placed at my back door and has a different chime.I also use an ELK-930 doorbell detection module and wired to an Elk input. It's designed for use with solenoid chimes, so you will multiple threshold crossings while the chime melody is playing. You can make it work If you set a virtual output in and include in you Elk rules of statement to trigger an action only once for the duration of the melody.Before wiring the 930 directly to the Elk, I wired the 930 to an IOLinc input and wired the relay output to the RF button. I could remotely control my door bell without any trouble. I stopped using the IOLinc because of the high failure rate of the device and for other reasons I was able to free up an Elk zone input.For smoke/co detection, I went with a Kidde RemoteLync detector, which works with any smoke manufactured since the 70's. It has IFTTT support which I can use the maker channel to invoke any ISY action or program. Thanks, I didn't want to actually put a button at the backdoor, I wanted the ISY to be able to sound that chime when ANY door opens or closes (all doors have Insteon door switches) Also I have no ELK inputs. And although I didn't state it above, I avoid IFTTT, especially for something like this... it would add latency of seconds.... We use our rear doorbell sound for a "dryer is done" alert. Trouble is after a few years it still makes us think "who is at the door?" for a split second. Usually you can extend the drop out time of a DC relay with a series diode, resistor, and large capacitor across the coil. I was actually typing a reply to you to ask how you did the circuit with the dryer, and if you had any pointers on where to start with "Usually you can extend the drop out time of a DC relay with a series diode, resistor, and large capacitor across the coil." when I discovered the timing relay board above. A circuit like you were describing was exactly what I was hoping someone would teach me how to do when I wrote the first post. ____________________________ Thanks to all! I'll try to post pictures and wiring diagrams later. Link to comment
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