Monitoring a Whole House Generator

[rick.curl]

I noticed a couple of other threads that touch on this subject but didn't really answer my questions, so please forgive me for starting a new thread.

 

The setup:  I have  Generac 25KVA whole house generator that is installed and working fine. The whole Insteon system behaves perfectly while on generator.  The generator is an older one that will not support Generac's new monitoring system. The ISY is on a UPS and the PLM is not.  The ISY has the Z-wave option installed. 

 

 The problem: I've got a relay tied across the fuel solenoid valve on the generator which gives me a contact closure when the generator is running. At first glance it would seem to be simple to tie the contact to an I/O Linc or an open/close sensor, but then I realized that at the moment the generator starts the PLM will be down since the AC power is out. Once the generator is running it can easily send a signal when it stops, but not when it starts.

 

The options I can think of:

(1) Add a time delay so the contact closure doesn't happen until the PLM has had time to boot

(2) Use a Z-wave contact module since it should still work while the PLM is down

(3) Move the PLM to the UPS.  I really don't want to do this because I will be losing direct powerline signalling and will have to depend on RF only.   I think this will significantly reduce the reliability of the system.

 

I'm open to suggestions.  What are your thoughts on this? If the Z-wave contact module is the best solution, which one(s) will work with the ISY? 

 

Thanks for any guidance.

 

-Rick

[midrar]

Do you have an Elk alarm system. If so, you could use one of the one inputs for feedback. Then you could keep the plm where it is but move the ISY power supply to the UPS.

[Scottmichaelj]

I noticed a couple of other threads that touch on this subject but didn't really answer my questions, so please forgive me for starting a new thread.

 

The setup: I have Generac 25KVA whole house generator that is installed and working fine. The whole Insteon system behaves perfectly while on generator. The generator is an older one that will not support Generac's new monitoring system. The ISY is on a UPS and the PLM is not. The ISY has the Z-wave option installed.

 

The problem: I've got a relay tied across the fuel solenoid valve on the generator which gives me a contact closure when the generator is running. At first glance it would seem to be simple to tie the contact to an I/O Linc or an open/close sensor, but then I realized that at the moment the generator starts the PLM will be down since the AC power is out. Once the generator is running it can easily send a signal when it stops, but not when it starts.

 

The options I can think of:

(1) Add a time delay so the contact closure doesn't happen until the PLM has had time to boot

(2) Use a Z-wave contact module since it should still work while the PLM is down

(3) Move the PLM to the UPS. I really don't want to do this because I will be losing direct powerline signalling and will have to depend on RF only. I think this will significantly reduce the reliability of the system.

 

I'm open to suggestions. What are your thoughts on this? If the Z-wave contact module is the best solution, which one(s) will work with the ISY?

 

Thanks for any guidance.

 

-Rick

I been procrastinating on this very same thing. Do you have the Generac auto transfer switch? Specifically the "SIEMENS GENTFRSWTCH Automatic Transfer Switch For Use In SIEMENS Genready Load Center"? There are terminals on the side which may work for "sense" for you. I have a Brultech energy monitorting system so thought about tying into it. Not sure yet the best route to take.

[etsvilik]

I was thinking to do something similar with my Brigg&Stratton generator. My idea is/was to use Kumo CAO Tag to send the REST to ISY when generator is on.

One way is to  use Water sensor tag with sensor pads  soldered and wired to the Auto transfer switch relay.

Or Accellerometer based PRO tag attached to the generator to sense the vibration. I used this method to detect Dryer operation. 

[mwester]

What is the purpose of signaling the event to the ISY?  This is an important factor.

 

If the ISY is required in order to perform critical operations such as load-shedding, etc, then you need to rethink your entire solution -- hardwiring is necessary, and the controller probably shouldn't be an ISY.  The big problem is that at the time the generator is coming on-line, it's pure optimism to think that a powerline or even RF signal is guaranteed to make it through.

 

On the other hand, if the ISY is simply going to do some convenience things for you after the generator is up and running, well, then just poll the IOLinc rather than relying on it sending a message.  Write a program that's based on STATUS rather than Control, and arrange to run that program every minute or two.  That should be fast enough for any "convenience" actions, but still not pose too much of a load on the system.

 

My concern with z-wave is that at the time the generator is coming online, who knows what the status will be of the various "things" we all have in our houses that have power supplies and capacitors in them -- the probability of spurious RF noise seems fairly high to me, so I suspect you may also occasionally miss a z-wave device's message during the generator switch-over as well as certainly missing any power-line signal.

[Scottmichaelj]

What is the purpose of signaling the event to the ISY? This is an important factor.

 

If the ISY is required in order to perform critical operations such as load-shedding, etc, then you need to rethink your entire solution -- hardwiring is necessary, and the controller probably shouldn't be an ISY. The big problem is that at the time the generator is coming on-line, it's pure optimism to think that a powerline or even RF signal is guaranteed to make it through.

 

On the other hand, if the ISY is simply going to do some convenience things for you after the generator is up and running, well, then just poll the IOLinc rather than relying on it sending a message. Write a program that's based on STATUS rather than Control, and arrange to run that program every minute or two. That should be fast enough for any "convenience" actions, but still not pose too much of a load on the system.

 

My concern with z-wave is that at the time the generator is coming online, who knows what the status will be of the various "things" we all have in our houses that have power supplies and capacitors in them -- the probability of spurious RF noise seems fairly high to me, so I suspect you may also occasionally miss a z-wave device's message during the generator switch-over as well as certainly missing any power-line signal.

Well I am just speaking for myself but I assume others want the same thing. I just want a simple notification when the generator is on or off. Maybe your not home and you just want to be told the power is out at home, then again when its back on.

 

I agree load shedding and such should be handled differently with other hardware.

[rick.curl]

Do you have an Elk alarm system. If so, you could use one of the one inputs for feedback. Then you could keep the plm where it is but move the ISY power supply to the UPS.

I wish I had an Elk alarm.  Maybe some day.

 

Thanks.

 

-Rick

[rick.curl]

I been procrastinating on this very same thing. Do you have the Generac auto transfer switch? Specifically the "SIEMENS GENTFRSWTCH Automatic Transfer Switch For Use In SIEMENS Genready Load Center"? There are terminals on the side which may work for "sense" for you. I have a Brultech energy monitorting system so thought about tying into it. Not sure yet the best route to take.

It is "mostly" a Generac transfer switch, but it's cobbled together out of parts from several other switches.  I've got the contact closure OK- the problem is monitoring it.

 

-Rick

[rick.curl]

What is the purpose of signaling the event to the ISY?  This is an important factor.

 

If the ISY is required in order to perform critical operations such as load-shedding, etc, then you need to rethink your entire solution -- hardwiring is necessary, and the controller probably shouldn't be an ISY.  The big problem is that at the time the generator is coming on-line, it's pure optimism to think that a powerline or even RF signal is guaranteed to make it through.

 

On the other hand, if the ISY is simply going to do some convenience things for you after the generator is up and running, well, then just poll the IOLinc rather than relying on it sending a message.  Write a program that's based on STATUS rather than Control, and arrange to run that program every minute or two.  That should be fast enough for any "convenience" actions, but still not pose too much of a load on the system.

 

My concern with z-wave is that at the time the generator is coming online, who knows what the status will be of the various "things" we all have in our houses that have power supplies and capacitors in them -- the probability of spurious RF noise seems fairly high to me, so I suspect you may also occasionally miss a z-wave device's message during the generator switch-over as well as certainly missing any power-line signal.

You know- after I posted I realized that I didn't state the goal of this project- so I'm glad you brought that up.  The goal is to send a text to my phone to let me know when the generator starts and stops.  I may also want to send an email just so it will leave an easily-accessible "trail" of events.

 

I like the suggestion about polling the IOLinc.  I think I'll give that a try. 

 

Thank you!!

 

-Rick

Well I am just speaking for myself but I assume others want the same thing. I just want a simple notification when the generator is on or off. Maybe your not home and you just want to be told the power is out at home, then again when its back on.

 

I agree load shedding and such should be handled differently with other hardware.

Agree!

 

Thanks.

 

-Rick

[mwester]

I should probably be a little more clear on the polling thing, at least for the benefit of others who stumble upon this thread.

 

You'll need two programs actually -- one that is triggered on STATUS of the IOLinc and does the email/text msg sending bit.  Another that actually does the periodic polling of the IOLinc.  I do this with one of my z-wave switches that doesn't support "instant status".

 

Here's the program that does the polling - it's set to run at startup, and every 75 seconds thereafter:

 

pollz - [ID 0005][Parent 0001][Run At Startup]

If
   - No Conditions - (To add one, press 'Schedule' or 'Condition')

Then
        Repeat Every  1 minute and 15 seconds
           Set 'ZW 002 Dimmer Switch' Query

Else
   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

And here's the dirt-simple program that controls my desk lamp:

 

officeLights - [ID 0004][Parent 0001]

If
        'ZW 002 Dimmer Switch' Status > 50%

Then
        Set 'Hue Hub / Dimsum' Turn On

Else
        Set 'Hue Hub / Dimsum' Turn Off

 

[rick.curl]

 

I should probably be a little more clear on the polling thing, at least for the benefit of others who stumble upon this thread.

 

You'll need two programs actually -- one that is triggered on STATUS of the IOLinc and does the email/text msg sending bit.  Another that actually does the periodic polling of the IOLinc.  I do this with one of my z-wave switches that doesn't support "instant status".

 

Here's the program that does the polling - it's set to run at startup, and every 75 seconds thereafter:

 

pollz - [ID 0005][Parent 0001][Run At Startup]

If
   - No Conditions - (To add one, press 'Schedule' or 'Condition')

Then
        Repeat Every  1 minute and 15 seconds
           Set 'ZW 002 Dimmer Switch' Query

Else
   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

And here's the dirt-simple program that controls my desk lamp:

 

officeLights - [ID 0004][Parent 0001]

If
        'ZW 002 Dimmer Switch' Status > 50%

Then
        Set 'Hue Hub / Dimsum' Turn On

Else
        Set 'Hue Hub / Dimsum' Turn Off

 

 

That's very helpful.  I just ordered an IOLinc, and as soon as it arrives I'll start playing with this. 

It occurs to me that I really only need to poll the IOLinc for the first couple of minutes after the PLM boots up after a power outage.

Is there a way to detect that the PLM has just booted up and use that to trigger a program to poll the IOLinc? 

[JohnyWalter]

Maybe you should consider a diesel generator since gas is not available there if you want to power such a large load. One of the drawbacks though is fuel storage

Powering 400 amps off of an LP generator is a large load and will burn through a tank of propane pretty quickly. Maybe you could decide which circuits you absolutely have to power (such as fridge, lights, heat/AC, etc) so you can go with a smaller generator and your propane supply will last longer.

I personally went the portable generator/manual transfer switch route since I don't have a gas line coming in, nor do I have propane (other than enough to power a gas grill). Everything in this house is electric (including heat, which is expensive). The circuits I am powering with the generator is the fridge, downstairs heat, interior lights (including the circuit that powers medical equipment most importantly), an most of the wall sockets (TVs, computers, and window A/C units). Everything else, water heater, stove, microwave, washer/dryer, upstairs heat, and garbage disposal will be non-functional during a power outage.

Fortunately we have city water (no well pump) and we do not have a leaky basement (no sump pump required).

I bought the generator during the October snowstorm and waited a good two hours in line. Lowes had a shipment of 800 generators that day and they had 46 left by the time it was my turn. I bought it sight unseen. Of course the lights came on a couple of hours later after being out three days (did not have to use generator). Had I not bought the generator, I'd would have been out a good two weeks.