12 Volt Lighting / LampLinc Question

[ddaggett1]

This is probably another stupid question. We have have a fair amount of 12v landscape lights. We added some additional lights today, and all have LED dimmable bulbs. I was using a LampLinc to control and dim the lights, with the LampLinc plugged into the output side of my 12v lighting transformers (I have 3). I'm not sure if I should have been using it on the output side of a 12v system, but it has been working for several weeks. Anyhow, when the lights were supposed to come on tonight, there was strange behavior - one of the strings came on, just for a moment, and then went out. Another came on would stay on for about 30 seconds, then the LampLinc would turn off (red led) and then power cycle endlessly like that. It does not appear to be an issue with the lights themselves, as they work fine when I plug them directly into the transformer. Thus, I have a few questions:

 

I'm assuming this is a LampLinc issue, but I'm guessing the problem is I'm using it for something it's not made for. Any suggestions on how to make this setup work? I tried to put the LampLinc on the other input side of the transformer, but I saw the same behavior. Thanks in advance for any assistance you can provide!

[Brian H]

The 2457D2 LampLinc is a 120 VAC module.

 

You where using the 12 VAC on the low voltage side of the transformer to run the LampLinc and it actually worked?

It has one of the small switching ICs in it so I guess it maybe possible.

 

I suspect it was using Insteon RF signals from a nearby Dual Band device. As I doubt the Insteon power line commands making it through the transformer.

 

It maybe damaged. 12 volt lights may draw more current at a lower voltage.

Take and plug a standard 120 volt light in it and see how it acts. In a 120 volt outlet.

With no Load on the output outlet. If you push the On button does it stay On or cycle back Off?

You could try a factory reset and see if anything changes.

 

Do you know if the lighting transformer is made to work with a dimmer?

[apostolakisl]

How in the word did you do that?  You must have wired up standard NEMA 1-15 plugs onto the low voltage wires?  You should not do that.  I someone else comes along they would rightfully expect that those lights are 120vac based on the plug.

 

I'm shocked it worked.  I guess the circuitry in the lamplinc was able to rectify the 12vac into usable current.  Perhaps it was actually outputting a bit more than 12vac until you added more lights.  Adding more lights would increase current draw which may have dropped the voltage below what the lamplinc could function on.

[mwester]

Oh wow!   

 

30+ years ago, my college electronics lab instructor (an ex-military engineer who loved to tell stories of his life among the electrical and electronics aboard Navy vessels) made a comment about User-testing and QA-testing that's stuck with me all my life.  To paraphrase: "It's impossible to account for every use-case and mis-use-case, because the users are so d*** ingenious!"

 

Ingenious, simply ingenious.  It can't work -- it's WAY outside any design parameters, let alone the safety issues involved in putting a 120V plug on a low-voltage cable and bulb system.  And it would never, in a million years, have occurred to me as a possible misuse-case were I the QA engineer in charge of the LampLinc!  Nevertheless, it has a certain amount of logic to it...

 

Please undo whatever you've done, for safety's sake.

[ddaggett1]

Yeah, that's what can go wrong when you let lawyers and former professional computer programmers (me, basically) loose with the electronic components. My electrician who installed almost all of my Insteon hardware (after he fixed my first two installations) made me promise I wouldn't work on anything anymore that required turning off the breakers. It's a pretty robust installation at this point - when I print out the topology from ISY, it is 17 pages long (and most of it works!). Anyhow, the landscape lighting transformers are supposed to be high end, and if you open the access covers, there is simply a receptacle for a NEMA plug. What had been there previously was a simple, mechanical timer, which didn't seem 12V specific. Soooooo... The LampLinc plug fit in the same receptacle.... Sooooooooo...... Anyhow, thanks to all for the advice, and I have now removed them from the system and have the landscape lighting (temporarily) plugged back into the mechanical timers. But, back to the real question (and deflecting the discussion from just how stupid my initial install was - yep, pretty dumb, in retrospect, but kudos to the guys at Insteon as it actually worked, at least until recently when I apparently added too many lights). I realize that the solution is absolutely NOT to remove lights and plug the LampLinc's back in. But, what I'm wondering is if I get the electrician (first positive move on my part ) to install high wattage SwitchLinc dimmers (not the normal ones, but the high wattage ones) on the supply side of the transformers, do people think that has a reasonable shot of working? I can provide additional data on the transformers if that would help. Thanks again - this is a really helpful user community, and I'm glad that I can contribute something (at least a little levity ) from time to time! Take care, and thanks!

[apostolakisl]

I would doubt you need a high wattage switchlinc.  If your landscape lights are led, it would be a hell of a lot of leds to get past 600 watts.

 

The normal way to do this is to use a dimmable transformer and, like you said, install a lamplinc or switchlinc on the 120vac supply side to the transformer.

 

OR, screw the dimmable part.  Most folks don't dim their landscape lights, they put the size bulb they want at each location to control brightness.  In this case, you need an appliancelinc or on/off switchlinc (2477S).  Install that upstream to your transformer and no worries about a dimmable transformer.

[Banichi]

What apostolakisl said. Make sure that the transformers are dimmable first though. Otherwise you will damage the transformers over time.

 

I would personally like more info on the system/transformers. It is curious that there would be NEMA 120v plugs for 12v lights.

 

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[apostolakisl]

What apostolakisl said. Make sure that the transformers are dimmable first though. Otherwise you will damage the transformers over time.

 

I would personally like more info on the system/transformers. It is curious that there would be NEMA 120v plugs for 12v lights.

 

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Yeah, something doesn't add up here.  Either it isn't 12v or the transformer has been modified.  

[larryllix]

Yeah, something doesn't add up here.  Either it isn't 12v or the transformer has been modified.  

If the LampLinc really runs on 12vac, it signifies one sensitive range circuitry,  12vac to 150vac operating range? Very impressive!

 

If that is the actual case, we should be hearing a lot more about LampLincs burning out frequently with 120vac system usage surges and spikes. It's quite possible, but even multi-meters have a hard time with inputs to cover wide ranges like that. SH equipment doesn't have that reputation, with some other equipment.

 

OTOH: Doorbell transformers rated at 16vac have been measured up to 30vac, because it isn't critical and some manufacturer found they can rate the output voltage at 110vac input and full rated load on the secondary. Small core transformers are very poor efficiency and  voltage stability with such low iron content.

[Brian H]

If the mechanical timers could be powered from the outlet on the side.

120 volts AC sounds more like it.

 

Where the timers controlling the AC line Input to the transformer or switching the 12 volts to the lights.

Controlling the AC input sounds more logical.

 

Before trying a SwitchLinc Dimmer.

I would check the transformers specifications ans verify they can be controlled by a dimmer on the 120 volt primary input.

[ddaggett1]

I just tracked down the installation manual. It is here https://www.vistapro.com/Files/inst/MT-CTS-Inst.pdf. Apparently it will work with a dimmer ON THE SUPPLY SIDE Thanks for tall the help!

[apostolakisl]

If the LampLinc really runs on 12vac, it signifies one sensitive range circuitry,  12vac to 150vac operating range? Very impressive!

 

If that is the actual case, we should be hearing a lot more about LampLincs burning out frequently with 120vac system usage surges and spikes. It's quite possible, but even multi-meters have a hard time with inputs to cover wide ranges like that. SH equipment doesn't have that reputation, with some other equipment.

 

OTOH: Doorbell transformers rated at 16vac have been measured up to 30vac, because it isn't critical and some manufacturer found they can rate the output voltage at 110vac input and full rated load on the secondary. Small core transformers are very poor efficiency and  voltage stability with such low iron content.

 

I think they are actually good at 240vac.  I may be wrong, but I believe the Euro models use the same guts, just different plug.  That would make the functional range 12 to 240.

 

I suspect that, as you observed with doorbell transformers (and I have seen with a variety of transformers), the output was higher than the spec'd 12vac until you start pulling amps.  Maybe it was actually at 15 or 16 volts and when he added the additional lights, it drifted down to a point that the Insteon device couldn't get enough "push" for the amps it needed.

[stusviews]

I think they are actually good at 240vac.  I may be wrong, but I believe the Euro models use the same guts, just different plug.  That would make the functional range 12 to 240.

 

I suspect that, as you observed with doorbell transformers (and I have seen with a variety of transformers), the output was higher than the spec'd 12vac until you start pulling amps.  Maybe it was actually at 15 or 16 volts and when he added the additional lights, it drifted down to a point that the Insteon device couldn't get enough "push" for the amps it needed.

 

How does using a multinational line voltage device (110 to 240VAC, 50 or 60Hz) allow it to function with as low as 12 or even 16VAC? That's really stretching it

[larryllix]

How does using a multinational line voltage device (110 to 240VAC, 50 or 60Hz) allow it to function with as low as 12 or even 16VAC? That's really stretching it

I would suspect there is ONE resistor or capacitor they change for 240/120 vac models.

 

However, digital CPU based, multimeters do it without switching the input circuitry from uVolts to 1kV. hmmmm... most (I have used/repaired) have one hardware switch ranges to change to the most sensitive scales there, so the designers must have had a problem there too but the input ranges are amazing these days.

[apostolakisl]

There are lots of wall warts that are 240 and 120 without changing anything.

[larryllix]

There are lots of wall warts that are 240 and 120 without changing anything.

Universal power supplies usually only tolerate down to about 90vac.  

 

A range of 240vac down to 12vac would be incredulous. I believe that was Stu's point.

Electronic items that can live on  12vac tend to be very sensitive to small 12v (5% x V) spikes on a 240vac system.

[apostolakisl]

Universal power supplies usually only tolerate down to about 90vac.  

 

A range of 240vac down to 12vac would be incredulous. I believe that was Stu's point.

Electronic items that can live on  12vac tend to be very sensitive to small 12v (5% x V) spikes on a 240vac system.

I don't disagree.  Just saying, if a wall wart or laptop power supply can get plugged into 120 or 240 and work equally as well, I assume that SH can do the same with a switchlinc.  Going from 12vac all the way through 240 is a big range.  However, a switchlinc is only pulling about .6 watts so it might get away with a little more.

[stusviews]

apostolakisl, either you missed my point or you missed a typo, in particular, your post (#12) indicated, "That would make the functional range 12 to 240." Did you actually mean 120 to 240?

[Brian H]

I just tracked down the installation manual. It is here https://www.vistapro.com/Files/inst/MT-CTS-Inst.pdf. Apparently it will work with a dimmer ON THE SUPPLY SIDE Thanks for tall the help!

I looked at the transformers manual.

 

Does yours have an internal timer adjustment triggered by a photocell to determine when the LED light come on? Maybe an option as manual was not 100% clear.

 

I did see the optional output for added mechanical timers.

 

I did see  it could be used with an AC dimmer on the AC Line input. Rated to be used with inductive loads.

[apostolakisl]

Just checked my laptop power supply.  It is rated from 100 to 240 vac with 18.5 v 6.5 amp output.  

 

With .05 amp output (~Insteon power draw if it functions at 12v), I wouldn't be surprised if it would work down much lower.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the Insteon switch was limping along at 12 vac or perhaps it was actually more like 15 vac until the additional lights were added.