KPL Button Won't Let Me Set it to Non-Toggle Off....but the one next to it will...

[Eboman123]

Very weird.

I just got a brand new 6-button KPL from SmartHome.  Model# 2334-232.  revision 8.8.1317 and added it to my ISY994i.

 

Put it in the guest bedroom and set button B to "Non-Toggle-Off" any upstairs lights that were left on.  That one works fine.  If the lights are on, the button is lit.  Hit the button, if flashes a couple of times, turns off the upstairs lights, and goes dark.  Set the C button to do the same thing, except for it being the downstairs lights.  That one works fine....EXCEPT (and this is the problem) the KPL button, instead of going dark, stays lit (flashes a couple of times, and then lights back up).

 

I have it done with two scenes for each button.  One scene is controlled by a program that checks the status of the upstairs/downstairs light ("if lightxxx is not off or lightyyy is not off, then set status to On, else set status to off) and controls the button status (if scene is on....button is illuminated...etc.).  The 2nd scene is a simple "all downstairs lights on-off" deal and is controlled by the button.  In toggle mode, click the "dark" button, and the lights come on and the button lights up.   If the button is lit, then click button, lights in the scene go off, triggers program which turns off the scene and the light on the button goes off.

 

I actually have this exact setup on a couple KPLs (one in my bedroom and one in the guest bedroom).  The one in my bedroom works perfect.  I set both buttons to Non-Toggle-Off, so we can only turn the lights off....I don't want the user to be able to turn them on.

 

It's weird.  For the KPL that isn't acting correct....I've tried to Restore Device.  Reset the KPL to "factory" by pulling the little pin out for 15 seconds and Restoring the Device.  I've even used the non-ISY method per Insteon's instructions (click the button you want to switch toggle mode on, press the reset button until it beeps, press it again until it beeps, press a 3rd time until it beeps) -- this cycles though the different modes....However, it doesn't appear that the KPL even supports Non-Toggle-Off (it only cycles between Non-Toggle-On and Toggle.  But the button right next to it works fine in Non-Toggle-Off mode, so I'm really confused.  I've quadruple checked all of the settings for the button/scene/program against the one that works fine.  Even the ISY "thinks" the button is off....until I query it, then it realizes it's actually on.  I actually "upgraded" to the "Pro" version, in case I had maxed out my nodes and that was causing an issue somehow.

 

Any ideas?  The fact that one button works correctly and the one next to it does not really has me pulling my hair out.  

 

I'm stumped.  I might write a simple program to turn the button off manually, after the button is pressed, but that is more of a work-around than proper programming (in my  opinion).  

 

Or, I might just leave it in Toggle mode, since that works fine.  But, since I've got it monitoring EVERY non-essential light, in Toggle mode, it will turn on EVERY light in the scene.  The whole purpose was to check and see if ANY erroneous lights were accidentally left on and "notifies" me with a glowing KPL button when I turn the bedroom lights off.  I can click the button real quick to turn everything off.    

 

Let me know if you have any questions or anything you want me to try.  I'll take any suggestions at all right now.  

 

Thanks!

Eboman

 

 

[stusviews]

Which method did you use to set the button to non-Toggle off, the ISO options menu or the instructions in the device's manual?

 

Pulling out the set button and restoring the device does not perform a factory reset. Pull out the set pin, wait at least 10 seconds, then push in the set button and hold it in until the KPL beeps for a while. Don't release the set button until the beeping stops. If the reset was successful, the load will turn on a few seconds later.

[oberkc]

In this mode, the button will not turn itself on.  If it comes back on after turning itself off, then something is commanding it to do so, either by it being part of a scene and a program turning on the scene, or someone toggling that scene somehow.

 

I strongly suspect you have something funny in one of your programs that is commanding this button to come on.  I doubt that resetting and restoring this device will solve this problem.  

 

I would take inventory of this button in two ways:

 

- identify all the scenes that this button is part of, and whether there are any controller devices part of those scenes.

- identify any program that triggers any of those scenes.  

 

Feel free to post the results of your inventory and of the programs.  I suspect someone can find the problem.

[Eboman123]

Which method did you use to set the button to non-Toggle off, the ISO options menu or the instructions in the device's manual?

 

Pulling out the set button and restoring the device does not perform a factory reset. Pull out the set pin, wait at least 10 seconds, then push in the set button and hold it in until the KPL beeps for a while. Don't release the set button until the beeping stops. If the reset was successful, the load will turn on a few seconds later.

I did it with the ISY.....then did it manually by pulling the reset pin on the KPL.  I'll try re-setting the KPL again (and hold the reset pin in for a bit longer) in the morning and restoring it again.  Fingers crossed.  Thanks stusviews for the advice!!

[Eboman123]

In this mode, the button will not turn itself on.  If it comes back on after turning itself off, then something is commanding it to do so, either by it being part of a scene and a program turning on the scene, or someone toggling that scene somehow.

 

I strongly suspect you have something funny in one of your programs that is commanding this button to come on.  I doubt that resetting and restoring this device will solve this problem.  

 

I would take inventory of this button in two ways:

 

- identify all the scenes that this button is part of, and whether there are any controller devices part of those scenes.

- identify any program that triggers any of those scenes.  

 

Feel free to post the results of your inventory and of the programs.  I suspect someone can find the problem.

 

Thanks for the suggestions oberkc.  That's the "trick".  It's a brand new KPL and brand new Scene/Programs specifically for the button.  I've got the exact same program/scene commanding the KPL in my MBR and it works fine.  Plus, I've got the same program/scene (with different devices) commanding the B button (right next to the "faulty" C button) on the KPL in question and it works fine (turns off).  Even the ISY reports the button "off" after it's pressed and executes the scene/program....until I query it...then it realizes it's on and updates.  

 

In the morning, I'm going to try to reset/restore again.  If that doesn't work, I'll remove the button from all scenes, etc. and link it directly to some device, set it to non-toggle off  and see what it does.  if it suddenly starts working properly, then I'll post up programs, scenes, etc to see if you can see any errors in my logic.  My programming skills are still pretty good.  But the last formal class I took was in Cobol (with Fortran and Pascal the semester before).....so you can see how long it's been -- I might be a little "rusty".  haha.  Luckily, the IF/THEN/ELSE logic hasn't gone out of style. 

 

Thanks guys!!!

Eric

[oberkc]

Luckily, the IF/THEN/ELSE logic hasn't gone out of style.

 It is not your understanding of the "IF/THEN/ELSE" logic that has me concerned.  Do any of your programs have any "waits" or "repeats"?

 

In the morning, I'm going to try to reset/restore again.

 

Before fully restoring it, check to be sure the non-toggle mode works as you expect.

 

 If that doesn't work, I'll remove the button from all scenes, etc. and link it directly to some device, set it to non-toggle off  and see what it does.

 

Make sure you disable any program that may affect this device, also.

 

What do you mean by "link it directly"?

[Eboman123]

 It is not your understanding of the "IF/THEN/ELSE" logic that has me concerned.  Do any of your programs have any "waits" or "repeats"?

 

Before fully restoring it, check to be sure the non-toggle mode works as you expect.

 

Make sure you disable any program that may affect this device, also.

 

What do you mean by "link it directly"?

 

Hi oberkc,

 

There are some programs with "waits" and "repeats"...but they're all related to my garage door opener.  I went through all of the programs to make sure none of them referenced any of the items in the scene.  

 

By "link it directly"....I pulled the button from all other scenes, programs, etc and linked it to a plug-in module (via scene)....this way, I could be sure there were no other factors and go from there.

 

Good news (sort of).

 

The "restore device" did nothing.  Same problem.  So I deleted the button from all scenes/programs/etc.  I made a new scene called KitchenLightsTestScene-8.8.17 with only the KPL button controlling a plug-in module with a small lamp attached.  It worked like a charm (non-toggle-off and the light on the KPL goes off).

 

Long story short......I cleared out all devices in the old scene no longer controlled by the button and started adding them in one at a time to the new scene.  Come to discover, the Kitchen KPL Switch that controls the fluorescent lights in the kitchen is the culprit.  For some reason, I can have the other 5 devices in the scene and the non-toggle-off works perfect (stays off when scene is done turning the lights off).  As soon as I add the KPL switch that controls the fluorescent lights in the kitchen to the scene, the non-toggle-off button lights back up as soon as it's done turning the lights in the scene off.  It doesn't matter if it's the first and only device in the scene.....or the 6th one I add.....it's without a doubt the Fluorescent Light KPL Switch.  

 

So....I'm back scratching my head...trying to figure out WHY the stupid kitchen fluorescent switch is causing the KPL button to light back up when the scene is done turning off.  

 

Tomorrow, I'll probably break the kitchen fluorescent KPL switch out of all programs and scenes and start troubleshooting it.  I'm THINKING there might be something corrupt in the memory of the KPL.  When I upgraded the fluorescent ballast and bulbs to LED last year, I had to put some noise filters in to keep the switch connected to the ISY when the lights were on.  There was a bunch of Insteon/ISY commands getting "lost" because of all of the noise from the LED lights/ballast, so I think something might be corrupt in the KPL's memory.  I'm guessing/hoping I can factory reset the KPL in the kitchen and restore it with zero links and see what it does when I add it to the scene with the non-toggle-off button again.  

 

It's still kind of weird because if I control the exact same scene with a non-toggle-off button from the KPL in my Master Bedroom, it works fine (light stays off....even with the fluorescent kitchen lights KPL in the scene).  When I remove the MBR KPL button as controller and add the Guest Bedroom KPL button as controller, things go bad.  Again, it's a brand new KPL in the Guest Bedroom, so it was never tied in with any other "long lost" programs or scenes that I might have forgotten about.

 

Back to the drawing board!  If you have any ideas or suggestions, please let me know.  Otherwise, I'll report back more tomorrow.  

 

One thing to remember while pondering my problem.  After the scene triggers, the ISY "thinks" the button is off.  I've tried to look at the logs to see if there were any commands going through the ISY that is telling the button light to turn back on, and there is none.  It's not until I manually query the button status that the ISY updates to show "on".  I had thought about writing a program to query the button and update the state to "off" (I'll have to re-read those types of programming variables/commands again).  But I think I would rather figure out why having the Kitchen Fluorescent Light KPL button in the scene would be causing it not to work.  

 

Thanks again for the feedback thus far.  

 

Just for kicks, here's some of the details:

 

Here's the program that controls the Scene that controls the KPL Button Status:

 

Kitchen.Lights.All.Status - [iD 001D][Parent 0001]

 

If

        Status  'Whole House / Downstairs / Dining Room / Dining Room Chandelier' is not Off

     Or Status  'Whole House / Downstairs / Kitchen / Kitchen KPL Fluorescent Light' is not Off

     Or Status  'Whole House / Downstairs / Kitchen / Kitchen Fluorescent Light Swi' is not Off

     Or Status  'Whole House / Downstairs / Kitchen / Kitchen Recessed Lights' is not Off

     Or Status  'Whole House / Downstairs / Kitchen / Kitchen Table Overhead Light' is not Off

     Or Status  'Whole House / Downstairs / Sunroom / Sun Room Ceiling Light' is not Off

 

Then

        Set Scene 'Whole House / Downstairs / Kitchen / .Kitchen Lights All Status' On

 

Else

        Wait  2 seconds

        Set Scene 'Whole House / Downstairs / Kitchen / .Kitchen Lights All Status' Off

 

I put the "2 second wait" in there to see if it would turn off the KPL button after it went back on -- it doesn't (I THINK it's because the ISY already thinks the button is Off).  If I take it out, it does the same thing (button stays lit).

 

Here's what's in the Scene:

 

(actually....I have no idea how to put the scene contents in this post....let me know if you know how....otherwise, here's what it shows:)

 

Bedroom KPL - Kitchen Button

Is Controller For

Scene: KitchenLightsTestScene-8.8.17

Device; Dining Room Chandelier

Device: Kitchen Fluorescent Light Switch      (((In a separate scene with Kitchen Fluorescent Light KPL Switch as 2-way switch)))

Device: Kitchen Fluorescent Light KPL Switch         (((In a separate scene with Kitchen Fluorescent Light Switch as 2-way switch))) -- THE OFFENDING DEVICE!!!!

Device: Kitchen Recessed Lights

Device: Kitchen Table Overhead Light

Device: Sun Room Ceiling Lights

 

Is Responder to

Scene: .Kitchen Lights All Status   (((Controlled by above program)))

Scene: .KitchenLightsTestScene-8.8.17

 

KitchenLightsTestScene-8.8.17 has the 6 switches in as responders and the KPL button as controller/responder.

 

 

 

 

Thanks again guys!!

Eboman

[oberkc]

 As soon as I add the KPL switch that controls the fluorescent lights in the kitchen to the scene, the non-toggle-off button lights back up as soon as it's done turning the lights in the scene off.  ​

Wow.  I would have never thought this could happen.  Is this device a controller or responder in the scene (responder, I assume)?  How easy would it be to temporarily remove the load connection from the switch and see if the problem goes away?  Have you watched the event viewer for clues?  With the switch still part of the scene, press the "Bedroom KPL - Kitchen Button" and immediately check the program log to check (triple check?) to see that there was not a stray program running out there triggered by the fluorescent light switch which might cause the KPL button to come on..

 

I have no idea how to put the scene contents in this post​

 

most that I have seen add a screen shot or snippet of the admin console.

[Eboman123]

OK guys,

 

Let's see if this helps any.  For the first time in my life....I actually looked at the Event Viewer and here's what it says (and what I think is happening):

 

What I did was turn on the Kitchen Fluorescent Lights (which is controlled BY a switch at 17.F1.BB and the offending switch at 0B.4C.45 in a scene because it's a 2-way switch).  This, in turn, turns on the KPL button in the extra bedroom at 46.BF.AE.3. 

 

Sat 08/19/2017 08:15:09 PM : [iNST-SRX    ] 02 50 17.F1.BB 00.00.01 CB 11 00    LTONRR (00)     The light switch turning on

Sat 08/19/2017 08:15:09 PM : [std-Group   ] 17.F1.BB-->Group=1, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2           Switch doing something

Sat 08/19/2017 08:15:09 PM : [D2D EVENT   ] Event [17 F1 BB 1] [DON] [0] uom=0 prec=-1             Switch doing something

Sat 08/19/2017 08:15:09 PM : [  17 F1 BB 1]      DON   0                                                                      Switch doing something

Sat 08/19/2017 08:15:09 PM : [D2D EVENT   ] Event [b 4C 45 1] [sT] [255] uom=0 prec=-1               KPL Switch going on

Sat 08/19/2017 08:15:09 PM : [   B 4C 45 1]       ST 255                                                                        KPL Switch going on

Sat 08/19/2017 08:15:09 PM : [D2D-CMP 001D] STS [b 4C 45 1] ST op=6 Event(val=255 uom=0 prec=-1) != Condition(val=0 uom=0 prec=-1) --> true              Program that watches the lights (001D) turns scene off that controls the Bedroom KPL Button (should be turning it on).

Sat 08/19/2017 08:15:09 PM : [iNST-SRX    ] 02 50 17.F1.BB 1E.46.7F 41 11 01    LTONRR (01)                         Switch doing something (1E.46.7F is the PLM)

Sat 08/19/2017 08:15:09 PM : [std-Cleanup ] 17.F1.BB-->ISY/PLM Group=1, Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0              Switch doing something

Sat 08/19/2017 08:15:09 PM : [iNST-DUP    ] Previous message ignored.                                                               Duplicate message ignored?

Sat 08/19/2017 08:15:09 PM : [iNST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 00 00 2B CF 11 00                                                  Not sure what this is (some kind of transmission)

Sat 08/19/2017 08:15:09 PM : [D2D EVENT   ] Event [17 F1 BB 1] [sT] [255] uom=0 prec=-1                 Something about the switch going on.

Sat 08/19/2017 08:15:09 PM : [  17 F1 BB 1]       ST 255                                                                           Switch on

Sat 08/19/2017 08:15:09 PM : [D2D-CMP 001D] STS [17 F1 BB 1] ST op=6 Event(val=255 uom=0 prec=-1) != Condition(val=0 uom=0 prec=-1) --> true      Don't know

Sat 08/19/2017 08:15:09 PM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 00.00.2B CF 11 00 06          LTONRR (00)                   Not sure what this is (some kind of acknowledgment that a light is on)

Sat 08/19/2017 08:15:10 PM : [iNST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 00 00 2B CF 11 00                                                          Not sure (some kind of transmission by insteon).  Probably the scene turning the Bedroom KPL Button On.

Sat 08/19/2017 08:15:10 PM : [D2D EVENT   ] Event [46 FB AE 3] [sT] [255] uom=0 prec=-1                       Extra bedroom KPL Button going on as the result of Program triggering the scene to turn it on.

Sat 08/19/2017 08:15:10 PM : [  46 FB AE 3]       ST 255                                                                                 Button on

Sat 08/19/2017 08:15:10 PM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 00.00.2B CF 11 00 06          LTONRR (00)                      Not sure (some kind of acknowledgment)

 

So far, everything appears to be in order.  Then I went in the extra bedroom and pressed the KPL button in non-toggle-off mode to turn off the lights in the scene (the scene that controls 17.F1.BB and 0B.4C.45)

 

Sat 08/19/2017 08:15:18 PM : [iNST-SRX    ] 02 50 46.FB.AE 00.00.03 CB 13 00    LTOFFRR(00)  (KPL Button in Bedroom pushed to non-toggle-off the scene)

Sat 08/19/2017 08:15:18 PM : [std-Group   ] 46.FB.AE-->Group=3, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2               Looks OK

Sat 08/19/2017 08:15:18 PM : [D2D EVENT   ] Event [46 FB AE 3] [DOF] [0] uom=0 prec=-1                   Looks OK

Sat 08/19/2017 08:15:18 PM : [  46 FB AE 3]      DOF   0                                                                           Button Off

Sat 08/19/2017 08:15:18 PM : [D2D EVENT   ] Event [b 4C 45 1] [sT] [0] uom=0 prec=-1                        Kitchen KPL Switch Off

Sat 08/19/2017 08:15:18 PM : [   B 4C 45 1]       ST   0                                                                               Kitchen KPL Switch Off

Sat 08/19/2017 08:15:18 PM : [D2D-CMP 001D] STS [b 4C 45 1] ST op=6 Event(val=0 uom=0 prec=-1) != Condition(val=0 uom=0 prec=-1) --> false              Program 001D triggers showing all lights off -- should turn Scene that controls the Bedroom KPL Button Off.

Sat 08/19/2017 08:15:19 PM : [iNST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 00 00 2B CF 11 00                                                                   Insteon transmission

Sat 08/19/2017 08:15:19 PM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 00.00.2B CF 11 00 06          LTONRR (00)                             Insteon Ack Turning a light on?  Hmmmm.....

Sat 08/19/2017 08:15:19 PM : [D2D EVENT   ] Event [17 F1 BB 1] [sT] [0] uom=0 prec=-1                                   Kitchen Switch Off

Sat 08/19/2017 08:15:19 PM : [  17 F1 BB 1]       ST   0                                                                                           Kitchen Switch Off

Sat 08/19/2017 08:15:19 PM : [D2D-CMP 001D] STS [17 F1 BB 1] ST op=6 Event(val=0 uom=0 prec=-1) != Condition(val=0 uom=0 prec=-1) --> false                  Program 001D again showing lights off -- should turn Scene that controls the Bedroom KPL Button Off

Sat 08/19/2017 08:15:19 PM : [D2D EVENT   ] Event [46 FB AE 3] [sT] [0] uom=0 prec=-1                                   Bedroom KPL Button going off

Sat 08/19/2017 08:15:19 PM : [  46 FB AE 3]       ST   0                                                                                              Bedroom KPL Button off

Sat 08/19/2017 08:15:19 PM : [D2D EVENT   ] Event [46 FB AE 3] [sT] [255] uom=0 prec=-1                                Hello?  Bedroom KPL Button ON????

Sat 08/19/2017 08:15:19 PM : [  46 FB AE 3]       ST 255                                                                                            Bedroom KPL Button On?

Sat 08/19/2017 08:15:21 PM : [iNST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 00 00 2B CF 13 00                                                                   Insteon Transmission

Sat 08/19/2017 08:15:21 PM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 00.00.2B CF 13 00 06          LTOFFRR(00)                            Insteon Ack light off?

Sat 08/19/2017 08:15:21 PM : [D2D EVENT   ] Event [46 FB AE 3] [sT] [0] uom=0 prec=-1                                    OK.....Bedroom KPL Button going off again.

Sat 08/19/2017 08:15:21 PM : [  46 FB AE 3]       ST   0                                                                                            Bedroom KPL Button off.

Sat 08/19/2017 08:15:24 PM : [iNST-SRX    ] 02 50 46.FB.AE 13.06.03 CB 06 00           (00)                                Bedroom KPL Button doing something.

Sat 08/19/2017 08:15:24 PM : [std-Group   ] 46.FB.AE-->13.06.03, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2                               Not sure what 13.06.03 is.

Sat 08/19/2017 08:15:24 PM : [iNST-INFO   ] Previous message ignored.                                                                That's it...no more messages.

 

Got any ideas?  It got dark before I could get the light switch cover off to mess with wires.  I'll do that tomorrow.  I figured I would post up the logs and see if anyone had any feedback/ideas.

 

Thanks again guys!!!  Especially you oberkc.

[oberkc]

Your analysis of the log was deeper than anything I have ever done.  I have looked for gross indicators of programs triggered or comms issues, but never a line-by-line analysis.  Certainly interesting and seems accurate.

 

What is not clear to me is why you have a program that turns OFF the KPL button?  Is this a program that simply checks the status of all the pertinent devices and turns the KPL ON if at least one of the devices is on, and turns the KPL OFF if they are ALL OFF?  Is that the program 001D?  If you look at the programs list is this the only program triggered by such a series of button presses?  Care to post this program?

 

My inclination would be to try a couple of things.  1) Toggle the  kitchen fluorescent lights and observe the KPL button.  Does toggling the switch from on-to-off cause the same reaction to the keypad button?  2) Temporarily disable program 001D.  Does your problem go away if you perform similar experiments?

[Eboman123]

Ho oberkc,

 

Yes.  The program is to keep the KPL button "synced" with the status of the lights.  If any of the lights in the scene is on even a %, then the KPL button light is on (the program turns on/off the scene, which controls the KPL button).  I got the idea reading some other posts about using KPL buttons to control scenes and how they can sometimes get out of sync.  I had it listed in a previous post....but here it is again:

 

Kitchen.Lights.All.Status - [iD 001D][Parent 0001]

 

If

        Status  'Whole House / Downstairs / Dining Room / Dining Room Chandelier' is not Off

     Or Status  'Whole House / Downstairs / Kitchen / Kitchen KPL Fluorescent Light' is not Off

     Or Status  'Whole House / Downstairs / Kitchen / Kitchen Fluorescent Light Swi' is not Off

     Or Status  'Whole House / Downstairs / Kitchen / Kitchen Recessed Lights' is not Off

     Or Status  'Whole House / Downstairs / Kitchen / Kitchen Table Overhead Light' is not Off

     Or Status  'Whole House / Downstairs / Sunroom / Sun Room Ceiling Light' is not Off

 

Then

        Set Scene 'Whole House / Downstairs / Kitchen / .Kitchen Lights All Status' On

 

Else

        Wait  2 seconds

        Set Scene 'Whole House / Downstairs / Kitchen / .Kitchen Lights All Status' Off

 

 

The scene is called .KitchenLightsAllStatus and is the controller to the KPL button.  And, yes, it's Program 001D.

 

I'm going to do some additional troubleshooting here in a bit.  Need to finish yard work first.  haha.

 

Thanks!

Eric

[oberkc]

Everything that I see here appears correct (or at least how I would do it).  The only thing I begin to wonder about is whether ISY status for some of these devices does not match actual device status due to some communication issues or similar.  I would still try my suggestions from a couple of posts prior, but I am running out of ideas, besides checking to confirm ISY is accurately tracking device status.

[stusviews]

There's a lot to read, so I may have missed it. Can you control the button by turning the scene on/off from the Administrative Console (i.e, run Then; run Else)?

[Eboman123]

Hi guys,

I've tried so many things, I'm forgetting what I've actually done.

 

Today, I pulled the Kitchen KPL (the one controlling the fluorescent lights) that I THOUGHT was the problem, unhooked the load per oberkc's suggestion (no luck)...and did a factory reset while I was in there.

 

 

My inclination would be to try a couple of things.  1) Toggle the  kitchen fluorescent lights and observe the KPL button.  Does toggling the switch from on-to-off cause the same reaction to the keypad button?  2) Temporarily disable program 001D.  Does your problem go away if you perform similar experiments?

 

With the program on.....toggling the light switches in the scene (any of them...including the fluorescent lights) will cause the KPL button to go on and off.  With the program disabled, the KPL button won't turn "on" when the fluorescent lights (or any other lights) are turned on.....I'm pretty sure it's because everything is a "responder" in the scene, except for the KPL button which is a "responder/controller".  If I make them all Controllers, that will turn all of the lights on in the scene by clicking ANY of them on and I don't want that.  The KPL button is only supposed to be a visual reminder at night that "hey....there's some lights still on -- press me and you'll turn them off and this annoying little light will go away".  

 

What is not clear to me is why you have a program that turns OFF the KPL button?  Is this a program that simply checks the status of all the pertinent devices and turns the KPL ON if at least one of the devices is on, and turns the KPL OFF if they are ALL OFF?  Is that the program 001D?  If you look at the programs list is this the only program triggered by such a series of button presses?  Care to post this program?

 

 

.

The program is to make the KPL button go on if ANY of a group of light switches is >0% on.  It's basically a scene controlled by the program with only one responder (the KPL button).  I thought about this more last night, after reading your post.  I can't really think of an "easier" say to do it.  I don't want to make a bunch of little scenes where each switch is the controller with the KPL button a responder.  Things seem to get "out of sync" -- I got the idea from a previous post I had read about a guy who wanted to do something similar -- except his idea WORKED!!  HAHA!!

 

Plus, I also tried stusviews question (see if the program works when I run Then/Else commands).

 

The answer is "yes"....the button replies to Then/Else commands and "accurately" does the If command (goes to the proper state).

 

Then I again "disabled" the program, to mess around some more.  With the program off, I can turn on any lights I want, but the KPL button won't go on -- and that's fine....it's not supposed to because the other devices are not controllers for the scene.  However.....if I turn a bunch of lights on and press the KPL button, it no longer stays lit after executing the scene - non-toggle-off works perfect.  

 

So....I'm now looking at the program as the culprit.

 

I've got everything back the way it originally was (program enabled, all devices enabled).  With program enabled, the KPL button goes on and off when devices are turned on and off, like it's supposed to.  If I hit the KPL button, it turns devices off and stay lit (I want it to go dark).  With the program disabled, the KPL button is always off, but it stays off when I hit the KPL button to turn devices off (so, at least the non-toggle-off is working).

 

As I'm watching the program on my Mobilinc, it's executing the program and setting the Scene that controls the KPL button BEFORE all of the lights are done turning off.  Oberkc, to answer your device/ISY status mis-match question -- Yes, the ISY "thinks" the KPL button is off....but it's still on.  When I query the status, it suddenly updates.  Everything else is "good" and matches.

 

I THINK because the kitchen fluorescent lights are "noisy" and probably take a re-broadcast or two to get the signals straight, the ISY program is sending the "off" command to the KPL button, while it's still communicating with the kitchen devices (trying to get them all to turn off).  I THINK the ISY assumes the KPL button is off, so it quits sending the "off" command.  I believe I once read that programs, unlike Insteon commands, don't get re-sent is no ACK is received.  Not 100% sure of the communications of Insteon/ISY devices.  I DO see where the new KPL lets me enter in "# of retries" in the ISY Advanced Screen under the Scene.  But I'm 90% sure that's how many retries I can have the KPL issue the command to the network, not the other way around.  

 

I need to figure some way to have the ISY/PLM query the KPL button and change it, without clogging up the network with erroneous querys every few seconds.

 

That's my "new" idea for the night.  

 

Thanks guys!!  I appreciate the advice.

 

I'll keep everyone updated.  Nothing worse than someone having a similar problem and then abandoning the post after they get it figured out (and never give the answer).

 

Eboman

[Eboman123]

Well....I did something that I said I wasn't going to do.  But I can't figure it out.

 

Here's my "new" program:

 

Kitchen.Lights.All.Status - [iD 001D][Parent 0001]

 

If

        Status  'Whole House / Downstairs / Dining Room / Dining Room Chandelier' is not Off

     Or Status  'Whole House / Downstairs / Kitchen / Kitchen KPL Fluorescent Light' is not Off

     Or Status  'Whole House / Downstairs / Kitchen / Kitchen Fluorescent Light Swi' is not Off

     Or Status  'Whole House / Downstairs / Kitchen / Kitchen Recessed Lights' is not Off

     Or Status  'Whole House / Downstairs / Kitchen / Kitchen Table Overhead Light' is not Off

     Or Status  'Whole House / Downstairs / Sunroom / Sun Room Ceiling Light' is not Off

 

Then

        Set Scene 'Whole House / Downstairs / Kitchen / .Kitchen Lights All Status' On

 

Else

        Wait  5 seconds

        Set Scene 'Whole House / Downstairs / Kitchen / .Kitchen Lights All Status' Query

        Set Scene 'Whole House / Downstairs / Kitchen / .Kitchen Lights All Status' Off

 

 

Because the ISY "thinks" the KPL button is 'off' and won't try to turn it off again with the 'else' command from the program to the scene (I think....I'm so fried from trying to figure this out that I can't think straight), I had the program "query" the status of the button (so ISY updates to show "on") THEN turn it off.  Seems to be working.

 

It still bugs me that I had to go this route.  But it's working and I'm not running a 'query' every 5 seconds to monitor the status of the KPL button (like I was originally worried I would have to do).

 

I can probably take the 5 second "wait" clause out.  Not sure yet.  I initially put it in, in case the program was executing quicker than the scene change.

 

Thanks again everyone!!

Eboman

[oberkc]

So....I'm now looking at the program as the culprit.​

 

Good.  My best guess up to this point has been that the ISY thinks one of the devices from the program condition is still ON (when it is actually OFF).  This causes the program to turn your KPL button ON.  

 

In your new program, it would surprise me if the query was necessary.  I believe a program will send an OFF command even when a device is already OFF.  I wonder if it was the increase to 5 seconds (from 2 seconds) that helped more.  

 

In the end, there is only one way for your KPL to be ON: this program.  And this program will only turn on the KPL button if it thinks one of the conditions is true. I am with you in that I don't fully understand how the timing of the communication works, and also wonder if the amount of time it takes for your devices to turn off are affecting this program.  

[larryllix]

I had problems with the KPL statuses also. I don't remember the exact scenario now but the KPLs do not send the same commands as they respond to a query with. They are really messed up.

 

IIRC I don't think it matters what mode you have them in for sending commands, the queried status always toggles, every button press. You would have to ignore and just stop querying the buttons. Michel attempted to explain this to me once upon a time when I was questioning the log files, and I had to run some experiments myself to believe such stupidity in a device.

 

BTW: Add a Wait into the Then section also. It was suspected I may have cause myself some problems sending feedbck to a KPL so quickly after controlling devices with a KPL. It's all the same device despite dfferent sections.

[Eboman123]

Hi larryllix,

Thanks for the suggestion.  I added the "wait" into the Then section (good suggestion....I see what you were thinking).  But no luck.  After spending the entire day looking through old posts about KPL buttons (seems to be an on-going head-scratcher for lots of people), I decided to "scrap" my original plan of attack.  Some people had very complicated nested programs, enabling other programs, and disabling itself if/then/else.  Wow.  I was going to write a couple of programs to watch the button and the other lights.  If any of the lights were to turn on, then I would turn the KPL button on, disable the program, then start another program to wait for the lights to go off, turn off the KPL....re-enable the first program.  Yuck!  

 

In the Event Viewer, there is still this odd line that keeps coming up turning the KPL button on:

 

Sat 08/19/2017 08:15:19 PM : [D2D EVENT   ] Event [46 FB AE 3] [sT] [255] uom=0 prec=-1                                Hello?  Bedroom KPL Button ON????

Sat 08/19/2017 08:15:19 PM : [  46 FB AE 3]       ST 255                                                                                            Bedroom KPL Button On?

 

It subsequently is commanded to turn off....but doesn't do so.  I'm still stumped what triggers it (I've tried to research what each different event means, but not much luck.....most of the links to Insteon protocol messages are no good anymore), so I decided to completely take the KPL button out of all scenes EXCEPT for the one that controls the KPL button state (scene is called .Kitchen Lights All Status).

 

So....here's my two programs:

 

Kitchen.Lights.All.Status - [iD 001D][Parent 0001]

 

If

        Status  'Whole House / Downstairs / Dining Room / Dining Room Chandelier' is not Off

     Or Status  'Whole House / Downstairs / Kitchen / Kitchen KPL Fluorescent Light' is not Off

     Or Status  'Whole House / Downstairs / Kitchen / Kitchen Fluorescent Light Swi' is not Off

     Or Status  'Whole House / Downstairs / Kitchen / Kitchen Recessed Lights' is not Off

     Or Status  'Whole House / Downstairs / Kitchen / Kitchen Table Overhead Light' is not Off

     Or Status  'Whole House / Downstairs / Sunroom / Sun Room Ceiling Light' is not Off

 

Then

        Set Scene 'Whole House / Downstairs / Kitchen / .Kitchen Lights All Status' On

 

Else

        Set Scene 'Whole House / Downstairs / Kitchen / .Kitchen Lights All Status' Query

        Set Scene 'Whole House / Downstairs / Kitchen / .Kitchen Lights All Status' Off

 

I can probably take the Query out.  But I was able to take the "wait" statements out, so it executes immediately (button turns off as soon as it's done flashing).

 

 

Here's the other program:

 

KPL.Button.Turn.Off.Kitchen.Lights - [iD 0020][Parent 0001]

 

If

        Status  'Whole House / Downstairs / Linda's Bedroom / Linda's Bedroom KPL / Linda's Bedroom KPL - Kitchen' is not Off

    And Control 'Whole House / Downstairs / Linda's Bedroom / Linda's Bedroom KPL / Linda's Bedroom KPL - Kitchen' is switched Off

 

Then

        Set Scene 'Whole House / Downstairs / Kitchen / .Kitchen Lights All' Off

 

Else

   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

The Scene .Kitchen Lights All has all of the various lights in the Kitchen area as responders.  

 

I could probably take the first line out......but it seems to make sense to leave it in.  If some kid decides to start pushing the pretty button for no reason, it won't clog up the network with erroneous scene commands to all of the kitchen devices.

 

So...that's it.  Seems to be working.

 

I'm not a big fan of controlling devices with programs.  From how I understand Insteon to work, when the Scene Off command is given by the Program, it should still do some "re-tries" and "acks" and "cleanups", etc.  The only "risk" I see is if the ISY flakes out on me, the program won't trigger the scene when the KPL button is pushed (no links in the KPL anymore).  But this is a non-critical situation, so I'm not so worried.  

 

I might keep thinking on this.  Knowing me, it's going to drive me crazy.  haha.  But it's working for now.  Nice and clean too.

 

Thanks again everyone for all of the help!!

Eboman

 

 

[Eboman123]

Well.....I KNEW I couldn't leave this alone.  

I was reading more into decoding the Event Log and it occurred to me to look at the "regular log" too (I've never really looked at either, since I've not had too many issues that a little de-bugging couldn't figure out).

 

Even with the new program.  Here's the log.

 

Scene:Whole House / Downstairs / Kitchen / .Kitchen Lights All Status Off 0 Tue 2017/08/22 10:04:18 PM Program Log Whole House / Downstairs / Linda's Bedroom / Linda's Bedroom KPL / Linda's Bedroom KPL - Kitchen Status 0% Tue 2017/08/22 10:04:18 PM System Log Whole House / Downstairs / Kitchen / Kitchen KPL Fluorescent Light Status 100% Tue 2017/08/22 10:04:39 PM System Log Whole House / Downstairs / Kitchen / Kitchen Fluorescent Light Swi Status 100% Tue 2017/08/22 10:04:39 PM System Log Scene:Whole House / Downstairs / Kitchen / .Kitchen Lights All Status On   Tue 2017/08/22 10:04:39 PM Program Log Scene:Whole House / Downstairs / Kitchen / .Kitchen Lights All Status On   Tue 2017/08/22 10:04:40 PM Program Log Whole House / Downstairs / Linda's Bedroom / Linda's Bedroom KPL / Linda's Bedroom KPL - Kitchen Status 100% Tue 2017/08/22 10:04:40 PM System Log Whole House / Downstairs / Linda's Bedroom / Linda's Bedroom KPL / Linda's Bedroom KPL - Kitchen Status 0% Tue 2017/08/22 10:04:49 PM System Log Scene:Whole House / Downstairs / Kitchen / .Kitchen Lights All Off 0 Tue 2017/08/22 10:04:49 PM Program Log Whole House / Downstairs / Kitchen / Kitchen KPL Fluorescent Light Status 0% Tue 2017/08/22 10:04:49 PM System Log Whole House / Downstairs / Kitchen / Kitchen Fluorescent Light Swi Status 0% Tue 2017/08/22 10:04:49 PM System Log Scene:Whole House / Downstairs / Kitchen / .Kitchen Lights All Status On   Tue 2017/08/22 10:04:49 PM Program Log Whole House / Downstairs / Linda's Bedroom / Linda's Bedroom KPL / Linda's Bedroom KPL - Kitchen Status 100% Tue 2017/08/22 10:04:50 PM System Log Scene:Whole House / Downstairs / Kitchen / .Kitchen Lights All Status Status Query Tue 2017/08/22 10:04:50 PM Program Log Scene:Whole House / Downstairs / Kitchen / .Kitchen Lights All Status Off 0 Tue 2017/08/22 10:04:50 PM Program Log Whole House / Downstairs / Linda's Bedroom / Linda's Bedroom KPL / Linda's Bedroom KPL - Kitchen Status 0% Tue 2017/08/22 10:04:50 PM System Log

 

Everything starts off.

Kitchen Fluorescent Light KPL switch and it's other switch in the 2-way circuit go on.

Program turns on .Kitchen Light All Status

Linda's Bedroom KPL Button turns on (that's the name I gave the KPL in the extra bedroom)

A few seconds later, I turn the KPL button Off by pressing it (non-toggle-off)  10:04:49pm

.Kitchen Lights All scene turns off, which turns off the KPL Fluorescent Light and the Fluorescent Light Switch.  At this point, every device the Kitchen.Lights.All.Status program's IF section is  "off", which should kick the ELSE command to turn keep the .Kitchen Lights All Status scene OFF.

BUT INSTEAD, the Program turns the .Kitchen Lights All Status scene back on!!  WTF!?!

Then the system runs the program again itself and realizes "oops...I made a mistake" and things go back to normal.

 

I triple-checked....there are NO other programs using the scene .Kitchen Lights All Status.  For some reason, this program is kicking back a TRUE status after all of the lights in the IF scene are turned off.

 

Kitchen.Lights.All.Status - [iD 001D][Parent 0001]

 

If

        Status  'Whole House / Downstairs / Dining Room / Dining Room Chandelier' is not Off

     Or Status  'Whole House / Downstairs / Kitchen / Kitchen KPL Fluorescent Light' is not Off

     Or Status  'Whole House / Downstairs / Kitchen / Kitchen Fluorescent Light Swi' is not Off

     Or Status  'Whole House / Downstairs / Kitchen / Kitchen Recessed Lights' is not Off

     Or Status  'Whole House / Downstairs / Kitchen / Kitchen Table Overhead Light' is not Off

     Or Status  'Whole House / Downstairs / Sunroom / Sun Room Ceiling Light' is not Off

 

Then

        Set Scene 'Whole House / Downstairs / Kitchen / .Kitchen Lights All Status' On

 

Else

        Set Scene 'Whole House / Downstairs / Kitchen / .Kitchen Lights All Status' Query

        Set Scene 'Whole House / Downstairs / Kitchen / .Kitchen Lights All Status' Off

 

 

 

It's late and I'm tired.  Tomorrow, I'll add in the "wait" clause again to see what happens.  One question, in case anyone knows......If the IF status changes during the "wait" period, does it automatically re-start the program?  For example, if the "If device is not 0" is TRUE, but then changes to FALSE during the "wait 5 seconds" in the "THEN" phase, does it STOP running the rest of the THEN part of the program?  I think it does....but figured I better double-check.  

 

Word of advice.  USE THE LOGS!!  THEY'RE USEFUL!!  haha.

Duh!

 

Thanks guys,

Eboman 

[oberkc]

If the IF status changes during the "wait" period, does it automatically re-start the program?

 

yes