Insteon command transmission and acknowledge

[sandryseibert]

Hello friends,

 

I'd like to know if someone here knows how is the expected behavior of a Insteon device when triggered for something.

 

I have a far Insteon device (Dual band FAN controller) which I send a command to change fan speed or turn its lights on or off and sometimes it responds quickly but some times it takes about 10 or more seconds.

 

This is not an issue for me if ISY or neighbor Insteon devices holds the command sent even after some time and keep trying to send the command until it reports the success. However I am not familiar with Insteon command techniques and I was guessing if this device is indeed so smart to walk around this situation, an I wrong?

 

Thank you for help

Sandry Seibert

[paulbates]

Hi Sandry

 

When directly controlling devices, The Insteon device sending the command will try several times to get through. If it doesn't get an acknowledgement from the target (fanlinc), the source will try several times.  Three things can happen

1. The command gets through, the device goes on/off, and the response eventually makes it back
2. The command gets through, the device goes on/off, but the acknowledgement doesn't make it back. The fanlinc responds, but the ISY didn't get the acknowledgement, so it doesn't know and has the wrong status
3. The command never gets through, the device doesn't go on/off, and the ISY doesn't get the acknowledgement. 

The culprit in 2. and 3. is line noise. I'm wondering if the fan is injecting a lot of noise into the power line after its turned on, or at certain speeds. Some power line noise can even overwhelm an Insteon devices ability to accept commands via RF.

 

You can try can to see if a certain state of the fan exhibits the delay behavior more to start narrowing this down

• Turning it on from off 5 times.. How many successful ons? How many delayed actions
• Turning it off from on 5 times.. How man successful offs? How many delayed actions .. compare to Ons
• Same thing for changing speeds. Does changing into a certain speed then cause delayed responses?

Paul

[stusviews]

Ten seconds is an awfully long time for a device to respond. I don't see that as even being possible. Are you estimating or have you actually timed the response?

[sandryseibert]

 

• The command gets through, the device goes on/off, and the response eventually makes it back

 

Sometimes the device goes on/off and response reach ISY just in time

 

 

• The command gets through, the device goes on/off, but the acknowledgement doesn't make it back. The fanlinc responds, but the ISY didn't get the acknowledgement, so it doesn't know and has the wrong status

 

That's the weird part, sometimes the device do nothing and I see on my phone an error and a retry, then sometimes the device goes on/off, but take time.

 

 

• The command never gets through, the device doesn't go on/off, and the ISY doesn't get the acknowledgement. 

 

This never happen, every time I send a command, at least from my mobile (web access to ISY) the device will respond to the command, doesn't matter how many time it takes, and may take a huge time to ISY receive the current status. On Administrative Console I see a red exclamation error during the period of trying.

 

You can try can to see if a certain state of the fan exhibits the delay behavior more to start narrowing this down

• Turning it on from off 5 times.. How many successful ons? How many delayed actions
• Turning it off from on 5 times.. How man successful offs? How many delayed actions .. compare to Ons
• Same thing for changing speeds. Does changing into a certain speed then cause delayed responses?

Nice idea, I'll try this...

[sandryseibert]

Ten seconds is an awfully long time for a device to respond. I don't see that as even being possible. Are you estimating or have you actually timed the response?

I am using the web access from my mobile, yes it takes sometimes much more than 10 seconds, till I leave the page open I see a "retry" message running over and over... I'll try to take a screenshot

[sandryseibert]

Sometimes the device goes on/off and response reach ISY just in time

 

That's the weird part, sometimes the device do nothing and I see on my phone an error and a retry, then sometimes the device goes on/off, but take time.

 

This never happen, every time I send a command, at least from my mobile (web access to ISY) the device will respond to the command, doesn't matter how many time it takes, and may take a huge time to ISY receive the current status. On Administrative Console I see a red exclamation error during the period of trying.

 

Nice idea, I'll try this...

 

Looks like you are correct, if FAN is OFF, than it works all the time, however if FAN is ON at any speed, than the device work randomly. Freak!! The insteon interfere on its own command?

[paulbates]

Looks like you are correct, if FAN is OFF, than it works all the time, however if FAN is ON at any speed, than the device work randomly. Freak!! The insteon interfere on its own command?

 

Sandry, no, that is the the evidence that was needed. It proves that when Insteon powers the fan, the fan (most likely motor) is injecting line noise back down the circuity and overwhelming the fanlinc. Some type of filter is needed.

 

I've used this with insteon devices that were overwhelmed by ECM furnance motors and transformers. Its very easy to wire to 110vac if you can fit it in the fan body. 

 

Paul

Edited August 29, 2017 by paulbates

[larryllix]

Sandry, no, that is the the evidence that was needed. It proves that when Insteon powers the fan, the fan (most likely motor) is injecting line noise back down the circuity and overwhelming the fanlinc. Some type of filter is needed.

 

I've used this with insteon devices that were overwhelmed by ECM furnance motors and transformers. Its very easy to wire to 110vac if you can fit it in the fan body. 

 

Paul

I have to wonder how they can call this "in-line"?

[paulbates]

Yes, good catch.. Stating that its "In line" is a misnomer and a gaff from Amazon... its not inline.  Here is the source doc from x10.

 

It wires across hot and neutral and carries no load... easy to wire and no load is carried by the device. Minimal to no risk of it "popping"

 

Paul

Edited August 29, 2017 by paulbates

[sandryseibert]

Yes, good catch.. Stating that its "In line" is a misnomer and a gaff from Amazon... its not inline.  Here is the source doc from x10.

 

It wires across hot and neutral and carries no load... easy to wire and no load is carried by the device. Minimal to no risk of it "popping"

 

Paul

 

Thank you for this.. You make me remember my old box full of X10 devices I've abandon since I start to use Insteon and Zwave..

 

I found there some of these filters I purchased on eBay http://www.ebay.com/itm/AC-115-250V-10A-Noise-Suppressor-AC-Power-EMI-Filter-Milling-/121696234448?hash=item1c55a92bd0:g:gDwAAOSwlndZNeBR

 

I just installed one of this between my FANLink load out and the motor and bingo! Now the FANLink is responding with no errors.

 

I also figure out something obvious on the embedded ISY webpage but not clear to me till now.. The double green arrows on the side of a status, isn't a refresh button but a resend command of that status, so when I press that, in fact I am sending a new request. The refresh button is in fact a refresh word on the bottom right corner. The Insteon retries are limited to 3 times only, in case the device don't report ISY stops there. Now I'm curious to know if I can change the amount of retries on ISY or if it's something that's belong to the Insteon PLM device/protocol.

 

Cheers

Sandry Seibert 

[paulbates]

Cool glad you had one. I have several because I replaced the furnaces with the ECM motors a few years ago and had the installers return those to me.

 

It may be possible to increase the retries of the fanlinc. I wrote about this yesterday here.  Look at the last post. Right-click on the fanlinc, advanced, PLM Communications. Some of my devices support it, some don't. I don't have a fanlinc, so not sure.

 

If it works, consider that the bigger the retry number, the more retries, and the longer the perceived response to the command. It kind of depends how noticeable. 

Its worth experimenting with both and see what works best for you

 

Paul

 

Thank you for this.. You make me remember my old box full of X10 devices I've abandon since I start to use Insteon and Zwave..

 

I found there some of these filters I purchased on eBay http://www.ebay.com/itm/AC-115-250V-10A-Noise-Suppressor-AC-Power-EMI-Filter-Milling-/121696234448?hash=item1c55a92bd0:g:gDwAAOSwlndZNeBR

 

I just installed one of this between my FANLink load out and the motor and bingo! Now the FANLink is responding with no errors.

 

I also figure out something obvious on the embedded ISY webpage but not clear to me till now.. The double green arrows on the side of a status, isn't a refresh button but a resend command of that status, so when I press that, in fact I am sending a new request. The refresh button is in fact a refresh word on the bottom right corner. The Insteon retries are limited to 3 times only, in case the device don't report ISY stops there. Now I'm curious to know if I can change the amount of retries on ISY or if it's something that's belong to the Insteon PLM device/protocol.

 

Cheers

Sandry Seibert 

 

 

Paul