240VAC NC Relay problem after power failure

[steve-elves]

Update:

 

What I hadn't mentioned before (mainly because I forgot about it) was that I still have my old Insteon Hub attached.  I don't use it for much, except to query the house status when I'm away.  It has icons for the pump relay and the water heater relay.

 

I got to thinking that the Hub may be interfering with the proper operation of the ISY, so I deleted the pump relay from the Hub, rebooted it, added it back, and then rebooted all devices (ISY, Hub, PLM, pump relay).  Problem still remains - the only way to get the pump back on is to delete and reinstall it.

[Teken]

Well, I've done as @Teken suggested and removed "run at startup" from my leak detection programs. I've also run the "restore device" on the relay module a couple of times.

 

I think the status (or lack thereof) from the leak detector modules is a red herring. When I went to bed last night, 2 of the 5 leak detectors had status information in them (dry = on, wet = off) because I had reset them manually; the other 3 had blank status for dry, wet, and HB. When I got up this morning, 2 more showed the same statuses (dry = on, wet = off) all on their own. I think these guys just report when they feel like it as long as there's no change in their moisture sensors. I've replaced the batteries in all 5 units about 2 months ago.

 

When I ran my test again (power cycle ISY, pump, and PLM) to simulate a whole-house power failure, sure enough the pump relay came back in the Off state and I could not turn it on from the admin console or the relay itself - I had to delete and reinstall the device.

Hello Steve,

 

Can I ask you to confirm visually that the 240 VAC controller is indeed a NC vs NO unit. The only way to confirm this is to open up the unit and validate the wiring on the relays.

 

It should be noted another option is to move the wires from NC to NO and takes only a few minutes with pliers. Doing so in this situation may very well solve this odd issue.

 

I guess what concerns me is the fact your saying the NC relay is being opened upon power up is this correct?

 

Also it should be noted if this device is still under the 2 year warranty period I would RMA it for s NO unit. The primary reason is the NC units don't sell and their hardware isn't updated when compared to the NO units. This is why if you decide to go this route get a NO unit and rewire it to a NC which offers all the hardware and firmware updates.

 

One thing I haven't seen confirmed is if the *Last Known* state is operating as expected. It's important to disable everything or better yet delete and hard reset the 240 load controller. Once done power it up and confirm what state it's in. In this case it would be NC and power would be applied. Turn off the breaker a few times waiting about 20~ 30 seconds to confirm.

 

If the last known state is confirmed and validated to work add it back to the ISY Series Controller. Ensure at this point the programs are still disabled and rinse & repeat the power cycle to the two units. If the unit comes up OK this is 100% a programming issue.

 

If you need pictures of the load controller relay being changed let me know.

 

 

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[steve-elves]

Hmmm.  If I turn off all relevant devices (ISY, Hub, PLM, and pump relay) and then power on all except the hub, things seem to come back normally.  The pump relay is turned on, and stays on.  If I then power up the Hub, there seems to be no adverse effect.

 

I think somehow the Hub is getting in the way of proper operation of the ISY.  If I turn the pump or the water heater relays off from the Insteon app on my phone, the relays actually do go off, but the actual "off" status is not seen in the admin console of the ISY (it still shows the relay on).  If I toggle the pump off from the admin console, status changes to off.  If I turn the pump on through the Insteon app, relay goes on but the admin console shows off.  If I then turn the pump on from the admin console, status goes to on and relay remains on.

 

I think the Hub is causing all my grief.  I like having it, because it makes checking the devices remotely quite easy, but if it's going to shorten my life due to frustration, it will have to go. 

 

Are there any downsides to getting rid of the Hub?

[Teken]

You should never have two controllers active. Get rid of it and report back the results

 

 

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[steve-elves]

@Teken:

 

I knew you were going to say that - and I'm afraid you are right.  I regret that it won't allow me to query the status of the relays on my phone, though.

 

Are there any reasonable apps for talking to the ISY from a smartphone?  I tried a couple of years ago but couldn't find anything that wasn't kludgy.

[Teken]

iOS = Mobilinc Android = Agave

 

There are a few free solutions but I will need to get back to you which ones as I'm headed to the gym.

 

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[steve-elves]

@Teken:

 

Thanks a lot.   

 

Hub is now removed entirely.  Problem does not recur.

I purchased Agave - looks good.

 

Thanks to everyone who chipped in - this has been a real learning experience for me!

[apostolakisl]

My four Leak Detectors all show status and no blanks. Those fields have been filled in somehow, without tapping the button or detecting Wet since my last ISY power cycle. ISY is getting that information sent contrary to how other battery operated devices report.

 

Perhaps status is also reported with each heartbeat?

yes, heartbeat.  A query won't do it and for at least a while they will be unpopulated after an isy reboot.

[apostolakisl]

Well, I've done as @Teken suggested and removed "run at startup" from my leak detection programs.  I've also run the "restore device" on the relay module a couple of times.

 

I think the status (or lack thereof) from the leak detector modules is a red herring.  When I went to bed last night, 2 of the 5 leak detectors had status information in them (dry = on, wet = off) because I had reset them manually; the other 3 had blank status for dry, wet, and HB.  When I got up this morning, 2 more showed the same statuses (dry = on, wet = off) all on their own.  I think these guys just report when they feel like it as long as there's no change in their moisture sensors.  I've replaced the batteries in all 5 units about 2 months ago.

 

When I ran my test again (power cycle ISY, pump, and PLM) to simulate a whole-house power failure, sure enough the pump relay came back in the Off state and I could not turn it on from the admin console or the relay itself - I had to delete and reinstall the device.

I believe leak sensors are a once per day status reporting device.

[apostolakisl]

@Teken:

 

Thanks a lot.   

 

Hub is now removed entirely.  Problem does not recur.

I purchased Agave - looks good.

 

Thanks to everyone who chipped in - this has been a real learning experience for me!

 

Good to hear.  I'm not sure how the hub is doing this either, but it is best to not have multiple controllers.  I use agave and it works nicely.  The developer is fairly active at making it better as well.

[Teken]

@Teken:

 

Thanks a lot.   

 

Hub is now removed entirely.  Problem does not recur.

I purchased Agave - looks good.

 

Thanks to everyone who chipped in - this has been a real learning experience for me!

 

Hello Steve,

 

Please test it several times just to validate there are no lingering issues here. Don't want to be out of town and have that same condition occur! 

 

Otherwise ~ Rock On . . .

[larryllix]

yes, heartbeat.  A query won't do it and for at least a while they will be unpopulated after an isy reboot.

Interesting and I believe this must be the case. Now this has me curious and if further proof cannot be found I need to set up a test case to prove it.

It would make sense that statuses are sent with the heartbeat once per 24 hours.

 

Checking the program summary page should give me the last heartbeat and the ability to know when the next one should arrive. Unfortunately I will have to power cycle my ISY just before that time, to see the update and prove it.

 

 

Does anybody know a way to blank a device parameter field in ISY other than power cycling the ISY itself?

[steve-elves]

@Teken

 

Tested 3 times, no recurrence of the problem.  Purchased Agave - so far it looks pretty solid.  Thanks for your insights.  (I hope you didn't exhaust all your handy expletives on the way to the gym!)

 

I'm feeling a bit stupid about this, but in my own defense, the industrial control systems I work with on a daily basis usually have multiple controllers, and all have the ability to write commands from multiple sources to a given device (if you program correctly).  Now I vaguely recall a discussion on another thread from long ago that warned against having the Hub and the ISY live on the same network, but I guess I forgot about it.  This is a good thing to know for the future.

 

Anybody want to buy a good used Insteon Hub, cheap?

[larryllix]

@Teken

 

Tested 3 times, no recurrence of the problem.  Purchased Agave - so far it looks pretty solid.  Thanks for your insights.  (I hope you didn't exhaust all your handy expletives on the way to the gym!)

 

I'm feeling a bit stupid about this, but in my own defense, the industrial control systems I work with on a daily basis usually have multiple controllers, and all have the ability to write commands from multiple sources to a given device (if you program correctly).  Now I vaguely recall a discussion on another thread from long ago that warned against having the Hub and the ISY live on the same network, but I guess I forgot about it.  This is a good thing to know for the future.

 

Anybody want to buy a good used Insteon Hub, cheap?

I hope you also tested each and every sensor and rest them too.  I spent most of my years in industrial control systems. Electrical grid protection and control systems. We weren't allowed mistakes. Beer should be involved here.

 

Some have successfully used both and it can be done but it takes a lot of mental homework and overhead. I wouldn't attempt it because I can't fathom any section of my HA control and inputs that could be isolated from the rest.

 

ISY has plenty of computing power yet. It's the Insteon protocol that bogs down waiting to be so polite.

[steve-elves]

@larryllix

 

Yeah, I tested the sensors while I was at it.  I get the proper "wet" indication relatively quickly, and once I dry off the contacts it goes back to dry relatively quickly as well.

 

It appears that if there is no change in state (from dry to wet or vice versa), the sensors show up with "blank" status (wet, dry, HB) until the heartbeat is sent.  It also appears that the HB is sent roughly every 24 hours.  The ISY doesn't seem to care that the sensor statuses are blank after a power failure.

 

The blank statuses led me down a nasty rabbit hole in this case - I should have twigged to the hub being the culprit much quicker than I did!  Thanks for all your insights!

[steve-elves]

@larryllix:

 

Sorry, I don't know of a way to blank a status, other than what I've outlined above.  Not sure why you would need to?.......

[larryllix]

@larryllix

 

Yeah, I tested the sensors while I was at it.  I get the proper "wet" indication relatively quickly, and once I dry off the contacts it goes back to dry relatively quickly as well.

 

It appears that if there is no change in state (from dry to wet or vice versa), the sensors show up with "blank" status (wet, dry, HB) until the heartbeat is sent.  It also appears that the HB is sent roughly every 24 hours.  The ISY doesn't seem to care that the sensor statuses are blank after a power failure.

 

The blank statuses led me down a nasty rabbit hole in this case - I should have twigged to the hub being the culprit much quicker than I did!  Thanks for all your insights!

People keep stating the blank status doesn't matter but that is nonsense.  ISY programs have to test true or false, one way the the other, for blanks status fields.

I need to do some testing for that logic  since this has come so up many times now.

 

Most are testing the Heartbeat with a 25 hour allowance. Some LDs send an On every 24 hours, and some send an alternating on and then off, one each 24 hours.

 

Have a good one!

[apostolakisl]

People keep stating the blank status doesn't matter but that is nonsense.  ISY programs have to test true or false, one way the the other, for blanks status fields.

I need to do some testing for that logic  since this has come so up many times now.

 

Most are testing the Heartbeat with a 25 hour allowance. Some LDs send an On every 24 hours, and some send an alternating on and then off, one each 24 hours.

 

Have a good one!

 

 

I'm pretty sure it doesn't matter in most all cases.  It isn't possible to test without rebooting my ISY which I don't fee like doing, but  .  . . 

 

1) IF control programs will trigger regardless of what if anything is listed in the current status at the time of the "control" being sent.  So there will be no impact at all on those.

2) IF Status programs I think will still trigger when it goes from unpopulated to anything.  This is worth testing.

 

You might get an unexpected run of an else clause on a program such as

 

If status is on

Then

whatever

Else 

somethingelse

 

In the above example, the else clause might run going from unpopulated to off.  Since you expect the else to run with a change in status from on to off, not unpopulated to off. 

[steve-elves]

@laryllix:

 

In fact, the blank status doesn't cause an issue with the logic.  The leak detection program says "if WET is ON, then shutdown pump".  If "Wet" is anything other than "On", the IF statement is FALSE and the THEN statement is not executed.  

 

Blanks will cause an issue for my restart logic I test if all leak detectors have ON in the Dry field; if dry is blank it is not ON, so the If statement cannot be true.  I'll have to think this one over some more.

[steve-elves]

I don't use any "Else" logic in my leak programs, so that's one less thing to worry about...

[apostolakisl]

I don't use any "Else" logic in my leak programs, so that's one less thing to worry about...

 

 

The one thing you might want to test just to be certain is that

 

Unpopulated -> on   is indeed a trigger for a status program.  

 

If it is not, then you could have the situation where your ISY reboots and the field is left unpopulated.  Then, prior to a heartbeat populating the field, you have a leak.  Now the leak sensor reports "wet".   At this point you would certainly want the program to trigger and run.

 

My recommendation would be to use "if control"  logic.  This will avoid any issues for certain since the current status is irrelevent when an "if control" program receives the wet message from the sensor.

[Teken]

Having been involved in HA for more than 15 years and industrial production systems ranging from safety, security, and networking.

 

I find the KISS principle being ignored and not applied in something that is obviously mission critical. The adage one is none, two is one is a mantra I and many others live by.

 

I would encourage the OP to reconsider how the leak sensors are deployed and integrated with this home automation system. In my world routine validation, testing, and follow up is key.

 

When life and safety along with mission critical systems are at play home automation isn't in the picture for me. I think it's important to get back to the basics and evaluate if the potential threats are indeed real vs the want / need.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[apostolakisl]

Having been involved in HA for more than 15 years and industrial production systems ranging from safety, security, and networking.

 

I find the KISS principle being ignored and not applied in something that is obviously mission critical. The adage one is none, two is one is a mantra I and many others live by.

 

I would encourage the OP to reconsider how the leak sensors are deployed and integrated with this home automation system. In my world routine validation, testing, and follow up is key.

 

When life and safety along with mission critical systems are at play home automation isn't in the picture for me. I think it's important to get back to the basics and evaluate if the potential threats are indeed real vs the want / need.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't use Insteon for life/safety/security/damage prevention.  

 

I say Insteon is for convenience items ONLY.  Things where failure is measured in inconvenience, not dollars, not life or limb.