Struggling with the most basic of functions - scene control

[Gouldc]

I am defeated. After days of messing about I cannot get the desired outcome. I have a 5 button controller in the master that I would like to control a scene and trigger a couple of events. The scene is simple, turn off all devices. After which I would like a program to change the on level for a lamp and send a command to the thermostat. I would also like the button that I pressed to turn off.

 

Right now I have the scene setup with an on level of 0 for all devices and button A as the transponder. When I press A only 3 of the 5 devices in the scene turn off, the other 2 actually turn on and the A button remains lit. The additional commands outside of the scene work great.

 

So, I have tried everything that I can think of to get the scene itself to turn all devices off but nothing. Focusing on the A button remaining on, I have played with the toggle state. Setting the A button to toggle off - off triggers the scene but does not execute the remaining commands in the program, presumably because they are not a part of the scene and are only triggered when the state of the button changes. As the button is set to toggle off it is not changing the state. I have tried taking all of the devices out of the scene and turning them off through the program but that is slow and does not work when the button is set to toggle off.

 

Lost at this point.

[Goose66]

Is that 5-button controller the old table top controller? I could never get either of mine to work with anything short of simple device on and off, and they died rather quickly (less than two years). I would suggest going to a newer 6-button or 8-button KPL that is dual-band. It may give you more reliability and work better with Insteon scenes.

[Gouldc]

Interesting that you ask. It is the 6 button - on/off and 4 lettered buttons installed as a replacement to a wall switch, but ISY identifies it as a "5-button .....". I have another identical unit but it is identified as a 6 button. Maybe that is part of the problem?

[stusviews]

First a bit of clarity: The 6-button Keypad is a 5-scene controller. The top and bottom buttons serve as On and Off, respectively, for the same scene. Various revisions of the same keypad are shown sometimes as a 5-button and sometimes as a 6-button. They both refer to the same keypad.

 

The top (On) button will always be illuminated when pressed. the bottom (Off) button will illuminate when pressed, but can be set to not illuminate when pressed. The top button illumination can't be changed (except for brightness level which affects all buttons).

 

If you want a secondary button to turn some devices off and others on, then the button should be set to non-toggle On. The button will always remain lit--unless you create a separate scene with the button as the only member and control that scene using a program.

 

Gouldc: an image of the scene would help. Also cut and paste your program (right click on the program name, select copy to Clipboard).

Edited October 23, 2017 by stusviews

[Goose66]

Maybe. AFAIK, on a 6-button KPL the On and Off

Buttons are always in Always On/Off mode, so controlling the light on the button probably won’t work nor is it necessary to have the On button (button A) always send an On command.

 

If the scenes are setup in the ISY and properly written to the devices, setting the devices to Off should work in the scene. Try restornig each device to ensure the links are written to each. The KPL button should be a controller in the scene and not a responder. Alternatively, sInce you are running a program anyway, why not turn off the devices in the program?

 

The program should read “If device.button A is switched On” to get the proper trigger. Make your changes in the

Then section.

 

To change a KPL button LED state in a program, create a scene with the KPL button as a responder only. Then set the scene to off at the end of the Then section in your program.

[lilyoyo1]

Add all of your devices to a scene at the levels you want them to be (in your case off). Add the lamp to the scene at the level you want it to turn on.

 

Create another scene and put the kpl button in as a responder.

 

The next part is how I do mine but can be done differently. I have a program written that turns on my scene (which turns out off) then another line that turns off the button. You could add your button to the scene as a controller should you choose. I use a program because I have different scenes run based off a single tap vs double tap.

 

If control A is turned on

Set all off scene ON

WAIT 2 seconds

Set Scene Button A off

[Gouldc]

Appreciate all of the feedback.

 

First a bit of clarity: The 6-button Keypad is a 5-scene controller. The top and bottom buttons serve as On and Off, respectively, for the same scene. Various revisions of the same keypad are shown sometimes as a 5-button and sometimes as a 6-button. They both refer to the same keypad.

 

The top (On) button will always be illuminated when pressed. the bottom (Off) button will illuminate when pressed, but can be set to not illuminate when pressed. The top button illumination can't be changed (except for brightness level which affects all buttons).

 

If you want a secondary button to turn some devices off and others on, then the button should be set to non-toggle On. The button will always remain lit--unless you create a separate scene with the button as the only member and control that scene using a program.

 

Gouldc: an image of the scene would help. Also cut and paste your program (right click on the program name, select copy to Clipboard).

I've been playing with non-toggle Off so that the button would turn off after the program has run. I'll try non-toggle On and create a scene with only the button in question to turn it off afterwards. I'll upload a shot of the program when I'm back home in a couple of days.2

 

Maybe. AFAIK, on a 6-button KPL the On and Off
Buttons are always in Always On/Off mode, so controlling the light on the button probably won’t work nor is it necessary to have the On button (button A) always send an On command.

If the scenes are setup in the ISY and properly written to the devices, setting the devices to Off should work in the scene. Try restornig each device to ensure the links are written to each. The KPL button should be a controller in the scene and not a responder. Alternatively, sInce you are running a program anyway, why not turn off the devices in the program?

The program should read “If device.button A is switched On” to get the proper trigger. Make your changes in the
Then section.

To change a KPL button LED state in a program, create a scene with the KPL button as a responder only. Then set the scene to off at the end of the Then section in your program.

I'll run through the restoring of the devices. It is strange as the on levels of each device in the program are set to 0. If I turn the scene on some of the devices actually turn on instead of off. If I set the on levels of the devices to 100 then set the scene to off when the button is pressed, should this work? Reason I'd prefer the scene is it's a lot quicker than turning everything off individually via program.

 

Add all of your devices to a scene at the levels you want them to be (in your case off). Add the lamp to the scene at the level you want it to turn on.

Create another scene and put the kpl button in as a responder.

The next part is how I do mine but can be done differently. I have a program written that turns on my scene (which turns out off) then another line that turns off the button. You could add your button to the scene as a controller should you choose. I use a program because I have different scenes run based off a single tap vs double tap.

If control A is turned on
Set all off scene ON
WAIT 2 seconds
Set Scene Button A off

 

I'll give this a shot. Curious about the double tap logic, can you elaborate?

[Goose66]

If I set the on levels of the devices to 100 then set the scene to off when the button is pressed, should this work?

 

In Insteon, the settings for each device in a scene (present levels and ramp rates) only work with an On command from the controllers. A Fast-On command (double-tap of the controller button or switch) sends a Fast-On to all of the devices in the scene. Similarly, the Off and Fast-Off commands send Off and Fast-Off to the devices in the scene, respectively. Therefore, if you put button A on a 6-button KPL as a controller in your scene, pressing the A should set all the devices to the preset-levels (0 in this case) regardless of the previous status of the button or the devices, since the A-button is stuck in Always On mode, and pressing the F button (bottom button) should turn all the devices in the scene off, since the F-button is stuck in Always Off mode.

 

Are all the devices you are wanting to turn off dimmers?

Edited October 24, 2017 by kingwr

[Gouldc]

Thanks for the explanation. I am a little confused about the ON and OFF buttons on a 6 button KPL and how they interact with a scene. The only button I’ve put in the scene is A so I assume the ON and OFF buttons should not impact it at all.

 

There are a variety of dimmer and straight on/off devices in the scene.

[Goose66]

Isn’t the A button the On button? Maybe that’s where I’m confusing you. I converted my only 6 button to an 8 button when I moved a year ago, so I My be forgetting how it shows up in the ISY.

[stusviews]

Appreciate all of the feedback.

 

I've been playing with non-toggle Off so that the button would turn off after the program has run. I'll try non-toggle On and create a scene with only the button in question to turn it off afterwards. I'll upload a shot of the program when I'm back home in a couple of days.2

 

I'll run through the restoring of the devices. It is strange as the on levels of each device in the program are set to 0. If I turn the scene on some of the devices actually turn on instead of off. If I set the on levels of the devices to 100 then set the scene to off when the button is pressed, should this work? Reason I'd prefer the scene is it's a lot quicker than turning everything off individually via program.

 

 

I'll give this a shot. Curious about the double tap logic, can you elaborate?

 

Setting a button to non-Toggle off sends an off only and cannot be used to turn anything on at all (without a program). Setting the button to non-toggle On can be used to turn device on or off, but the button will remain lit unless you use a program to turn the button's LED off. Turning the button off using a programwill do jut that, nothing else.

 

kingwr: The 6 (or 5) button mode has the top (large) button as On and the bottom (large) button as off. The other 4 buttons are labelled A, B, C and D. In 8-button mode, the top left button controls the load (if any) and is labelled A. The remaining secondary buttons are B, C, D, E, F, G and H.

[Gouldc]

Thank you. To clarify the only way to use a program to turn off the button is to put the button into a scene all by its lonesome correct?

[Gouldc]

Sorry, one more question. So I now understand the difference between non toggle on and non toggle off but what is the difference between non toggle on and toggle?

[stusviews]

Thank you. To clarify the only way to use a program to turn off the button is to put the button into a scene all by its lonesome correct?

 

That's correct.

 

Sorry, one more question. So I now understand the difference between non toggle on and non toggle off but what is the difference between non toggle on and toggle?

 

Toggle alternates between on and off on each subsequent push.

[Gouldc]

Thanks!

[Goose66]

kingwr: The 6 (or 5) button mode has the top (large) button as On and the bottom (large) button as off. The other 4 buttons are labelled A, B, C and D. In 8-button mode, the top left button controls the load (if any) and is labelled A. The remaining secondary buttons are B, C, D, E, F, G and H.

 

Ok, then I can see why my instructions were confusing. I agree that you want the A button in "Always On" mode and you should put it in a separate scene as a Responder so that your program can turn it off. It doesn't have to be in there by its "lonesome" - I have some scenes with multiple KPL buttons in there as responders.

[stusviews]

Correct again. I have two Dine Out buttons, one at the side door and one at the front. Both buttons are in the same scene.

[lilyoyo1]

I'll give this a shot. Curious about the double tap logic, can you elaborate?

If I single tap my family room goodnight button, it will set the downstairs lights on timers, turn on the hallway and step lights leading to the bedrooms, and lock the doors etc. Double tapping the same button will do the same as well as set my bedroom up the way I like when I am going to bed.

[Gouldc]

A double tap is seen as a quick on correct? This is a great discovery, really opens up the options.

[Goose66]

Actually a "Fast On," to use the ISY and Insteon vernacular. The code for this in the log would be "DFON."

[lilyoyo1]

A double tap is seen as a quick on correct? This is a great discovery, really opens up the options.

Yes. In programs you would simply say:

 

If Button A is fast on

[Gouldc]

Actually a "Fast On," to use the ISY and Insteon vernacular. The code for this in the log would be "DFON."

You lost me at code and log

[Goose66]

If you look in the ISY Log, you can see commands for devices listed, and the commands have codes like DON, DOF, DFON, DFOF, etc. When you are writing programs and putting in a control condition, "If Control 'Dining Light' is switched On" and "If Control 'Dining Light' is switched Fast On" are two distinct conditions. Note, however, that both of them will result in the status of the Dining Light being "On", so the condition "If Status 'Dining Light' is On" in a program will be true as a result of both commands. It is important to understand the difference between how Control conditions and Status conditions work in programming. Commands and status are two distinct things in the ISY.

[stusviews]

You lost me at code and log

 If you have an understanding of the difference between ON and FAST ON (and OFF and FAST OFF), then an understanding of the code and log isn't needed--unless something doesn't work as expected. At that point the code shown in the log will help.