Advice on Filters and Bridging

[mwester]

Just to be clear, the Insteon device should be considered to be a 240 device - so it will need a double breaker (i.e. a breaker that interrupts BOTH legs when it trips) -- so you can't just pick two random circuits on separate breaker to wire to the Insteon device.

 

Regarding a the use of a three-wire 240v circuit for an outlet, be it a 20A circuit in your kitchen or any other: as long as you have a properly-connected neutral wire of the same (or larger) size as the two hot wires, there will never be an imbalance in the circuit that exceeds the current-handling ability of any of the conductors.  Neat trick, saving a lot of labor and copper costs when wiring for electrically-dense areas such as kitchens or workshops.

[ScottAvery]

Just to be clear, the Insteon device should be considered to be a 240 device - so it will need a double breaker (i.e. a breaker that interrupts BOTH legs when it trips) -- so you can't just pick two random circuits on separate breaker to wire to the Insteon device.

 

Regarding a the use of a three-wire 240v circuit for an outlet, be it a 20A circuit in your kitchen or any other: as long as you have a properly-connected neutral wire of the same (or larger) size as the two hot wires, there will never be an imbalance in the circuit that exceeds the current-handling ability of any of the conductors.  Neat trick, saving a lot of labor and copper costs when wiring for electrically-dense areas such as kitchens or workshops.

Thank you for clarifying the need for a double pole breaker.  That was how I had read it before but it was described otherwise above.

 

I fully admit I have no training as an electrician, but I am still a little raising my eyebrows at the concept of putting a separate single pole circuit on each leg of a double pole breaker.  I have seen two adjacent single poles share a neutral wire, but each hot was wired to a breaker that could flip on its own.  Does it not matter?  Is one way better than the other?

[ELA]

One reason for double-pole, or handle tied,  breakers is for safety when 240V loads are present in the circuits involved. As was stated the signallinc is a 240V device.

So an unknowing person cannot turn off only one of the two breakers, before "servicing" the hardware coupler installation, and get a nasty shock.

 

Hi IndyMike ....   I will look forward to your test notes.     The device has some disclaimers for a good reason I bet.

[ScottAvery]

Opened the box of the 2406h I ordered a couple weeks ago and the instructions actually state that code requires that uit cannot be hooked to any circuit with a previously connected wire, so it has to be a new circuit.  (per the "code" on the Smart Labs document) I guess that is not inconsitent with the suggestion to add a circuit to it afterwards.

[IndyMike]

Opened the box of the 2406h I ordered a couple weeks ago and the instructions actually state that code requires that uit cannot be hooked to any circuit with a previously connected wire, so it has to be a new circuit.  (per the "code" on the Smart Labs document) I guess that is not inconsitent with the suggestion to add a circuit to it afterwards.

 

Scott,

 

I'll agree that the installation instructions are a bit confusing:

 

Step 4:

"The SignaLinc will need to be wired directly to two circuit breakers. It is a violation of the electrical code to use an

existing breaker that already has a wire connected to it. Install a new 220-volt 15-amp (double-pole) circuit breaker.

These breakers have a bar between the paddles so that if one breaker detects an overloaded condition, both will trip"

 

I would interpret the above as follows:

1) Smarthome would prefer that you wire the Signalinc directly to the circuit breaker. I do not interpret this as a requirement.

2) You cannot directly wire to a breaker that already has a wire installed (unless the breaker is designed to handle 2 connections). Two wires in a breaker would be a code violation.

3) You are allowed to add a branch to the existing wire away from the breaker. 

 

I agree with the previous posters that existing 220V circuits can be used.  These circuit should be controlled by a double pole breaker.  Not sure that the double pole breaker is code in all areas as yet.  I can remember it was not code in my area a few years back.  Regardless, it is an extremely good idea from the standpoint of safety.

[ScottAvery]

Scott,

 

I'll agree that the installation instructions are a bit confusing:

 

Step 4:

"The SignaLinc will need to be wired directly to two circuit breakers. It is a violation of the electrical code to use an

existing breaker that already has a wire connected to it. Install a new 220-volt 15-amp (double-pole) circuit breaker.

These breakers have a bar between the paddles so that if one breaker detects an overloaded condition, both will trip"

 

I would interpret the above as follows:

1) Smarthome would prefer that you wire the Signalinc directly to the circuit breaker. I do not interpret this as a requirement.

2) You cannot directly wire to a breaker that already has a wire installed (unless the breaker is designed to handle 2 connections). Two wires in a breaker would be a code violation.

3) You are allowed to add a branch to the existing wire away from the breaker. 

 

I agree with the previous posters that existing 220V circuits can be used.  These circuit should be controlled by a double pole breaker.  Not sure that the double pole breaker is code in all areas as yet.  I can remember it was not code in my area a few years back.  Regardless, it is an extremely good idea from the standpoint of safety.

 

Ok, I get it.  How far away from the breaker? Is it permissible to pigtail right in the panel or do the leads need to leave the panel to go to a box attached to a knockout?

 

Would this also apply to a whole house surge protector?  I put in a new 50A 220 breaker for the one in my previous house.  This house has the same Eaton model on each panel but there is no large dedicated 220 breaker nearby.  I had wired mine straight in to the new breaker with a short solid wire lead.  Have yet to remove the panel covers to see what is hiding in there.

[IndyMike]

Ok, I get it.  How far away from the breaker? Is it permissible to pigtail right in the panel or do the leads need to leave the panel to go to a box attached to a knockout?

 

Would this also apply to a whole house surge protector?  I put in a new 50A 220 breaker for the one in my previous house.  This house has the same Eaton model on each panel but there is no large dedicated 220 breaker nearby.  I had wired mine straight in to the new breaker with a short solid wire lead.  Have yet to remove the panel covers to see what is hiding in there.

 

1) You can pigtail within the panel. 

2) Your wire AWG and insulation must be consistent with the breaker being used and the panel temp rating.  I don't think you should pigtail directly to the 2406H.

3) There are different rules for branch circuits that are tapped away from the breaker box.  In any case, I would never consider tapping a 50A circuit with a 2406H. 

 

The direct answer - you can tap into a 15 or 20a double pole breaker.  Do this using 14 or 12 awg romex to extend to an external J-box.  I used a 3 gang box with 2 duplex outlets and the 2406H.  Left duplex phase A, center 2406H, Right duplex phase B.  PLM installed in phase B duplex, JVD XTB booster on phase A.

[ScottAvery]

1) You can pigtail within the panel. 

2) Your wire AWG and insulation must be consistent with the breaker being used and the panel temp rating.  I don't think you should pigtail directly to the 2406H.

3) There are different rules for branch circuits that are tapped away from the breaker box.  In any case, I would never consider tapping a 50A circuit with a 2406H. 

 

The direct answer - you can tap into a 15 or 20a double pole breaker.  Do this using 14 or 12 awg romex to extend to an external J-box.  I used a 3 gang box with 2 duplex outlets and the 2406H.  Left duplex phase A, center 2406H, Right duplex phase B.  PLM installed in phase B duplex, JVD XTB booster on phase A.

 

Sounds reasonable.  The 50Amp was for the surge protector.  The new ones appear to be a commercial version of this, which I had installed at the other house.

 

http://a.co/d4z9C57

 

$85 is an insane price for those, if anyone is looking for one.

[stusviews]

The NEC requires that a yoked breaker be used. You can pigtail from that pair of breakers to an approved enclosure that houses the SignaLinc.

 

Not every municipality adopts the latest code as soon as it comes out. In fact, most are based on a few year old code. You are OK as long as you conform the the version of the code in effect at the time of installation. It is your responsibility to determine which version of the code, if any, your municipality has chosen.

 

Yes, it's a choice. The code is a set of recommendations, not a law, except as applied by your local and/or state building/electric code. If a permit is required and not obtained, then the code enforced is the one that is in effect at the time an inspection, for whatever reason, occurs.

[ScottAvery]

Having my first issue with the new install.  two switches installed at opposite end of house from PLM are blinking red LEDs occasionally after repeated local button presses.  I have not gotten the passive phase bridge installed yet but I have placed an old-style AP repeater down there a few feet away.   A point of information: the circuit happens to have a GFCI breaker in the panel because it is a bathroom.  Not sure why they have it installed that way, as the outlets that would need the GFCI are on a different circuit from the lights.  Those switches are only in one scene and they are not controllers, so I'm not sure what comms would be causing the red status LEDs.

 

I think I may have identified a potential issue with the microwave causing interference, but I think it is excessive power draw perhaps, not noise, as the symptom is some lights still on the Lutron dimmer are blinking when the microwave is in convection mode.  microwave is in theory on its own 30A 220 circuit, but the wiring here is fishy, so anything is possible.

 

Speaking of fishy,  I cut a hole in the wall to install an access panel in the storage room opposite side of house from the breaker panels so I can pull new wiring across, and upon looking in I found a junction box that had been sealed up in the walls.  !*(^&*($^!@(  How many more are hiding!?  I had to use an in-line linc on one outdoor light because neither the switch nor the fixture were the source of power for the circuit, and the box where that circuit is joined cannot be found.

[paulbates]

The red light after pressing means that "group cleanup" didn't hear from everyone on the list-- signalling problems.

 

The old style APs are not i2 / i2cs so they may not be helping you. I have one in my garage for older iolincs that are pre i2/i2cs, but not 100% sure what happens if you use it with a newer switch

 

Also, I have had to replace GFCI... An outletlinc for yard lights plugged in down stream wouldn't work with it in. It was a really old GFCI though

 

Paul

[ScottAvery]

The red light after pressing means that "group cleanup" didn't hear from everyone on the list-- signalling problems.

 

The old style APs are not i2 / i2cs so they may not be helping you. I have one in my garage for older iolincs that are pre i2/i2cs, but not 100% sure what happens if you use it with a newer switch

 

Also, I have had to replace GFCI... An outletlinc for yard lights plugged in down stream wouldn't work with it in. It was a really old GFCI though

 

Paul

Thanks, for the advice. 

 

Would it be the PLM they are not hearing from for Group CleanUp?  Or the RemoteLinc2?  There are three switches that operate independently but are also in a scene controlled by the RemoteLinc2.  I would hope it is not the three adjacent switches not communicating, but that could be the low voltage lighting there begging for XPNRs.

 

 

I have a pile on new lamplincs I can install in place of the old repeaters.  And I have some breakers to try to swap in as well, so experiments all around.

[paulbates]

Thanks, for the advice. 

 

Would it be the PLM they are not hearing from for Group CleanUp?  Or the RemoteLinc2?  There are three switches that operate independently but are also in a scene controlled by the RemoteLinc2.  I would hope it is not the three adjacent switches not communicating, but that could be the low voltage lighting there begging for XPNRs.

 

 

I have a pile on new lamplincs I can install in place of the old repeaters.  And I have some breakers to try to swap in as well, so experiments all around.

 

The group cleanup is from the sending device itself (switch) to the things its controlling via scene / group. I would suggest lamplincs in place of the accesspoint first to see what happens. If that works, hang on until you can get the signallinc in and take the lamplinc back out and see how things are working.

 

Then see if its just the things that are close (wire feet) to the low voltage transformer are the only things misbehaving... wire in xpnrs as close to the transformer as you can get. and only where you see signalling problems.

 

This initial set up is time consuming, but: 

• I've found the signalinc solves a lot of difficult to explain behavior
• This is a one time "infrastructure" setup problem. It should go away for the most part once you figure it out

Paul

[stusviews]

The older APs (black antenna) were used only as  a bridge between the opposite legs of the split, single-phase electric supply. Their frequency (I have no incentive to search) was and is not used by any other Insteon device, not even dual-band devices. Plus, they do not repeat any Insteon signals-they're a phase bridge only and exclusively. They do not communicate with any other Insteon devices, only another old style AP.

[Brian H]

The 2442 SignaLinc modules with the external antenna.

As Stu pointed out. Are 904MHz. Insteon presently is 915MHz.

[ScottAvery]

I meant an Access Point, the ones that looked like the case for singleband lamp lincs or filterlincs.  I recall they were considered to have better range than the new ones.  Nevertheless, swapping to a dualband lamplinc at that location as Paul suggested seems to have solved the issue.