Intermittent Comm Problems w/ IOLink Garage Units

[robhouston]

Hello, ISY Experts:

 

I've been using an ISY994i for a few years now with a 2412S PLM without using the ISY external power supply.  Currently, my network is relatively small, with only about a dozen X-10 modules and only 3 Insteon IOLink units for my 3 garage doors.  The ISY/PLM is located in my basement, while the IOLinks are on the other side of the house, about 45 feet away from the ISY/PLM.

 

Recently, when using the Administrative Console, I'm getting some random "cannot communicate" errors with the IOLink units, and of course, the status of the IOLink unit is not accurate when this happens. All of the X-10 units are working fine through all of this.  Rebooting the PLM/ISY seems to at least temporarily resolve this.  I'm trying to figure out if there is some interference or if the PLM is starting to fail.  

 

Codes on the 2412S are:  05.E8.62    0720FIRM4A  REV2.3

 

Any thoughts about what is happening and what I need to do next to diagnose the issue?  If the PLM is failing, what is the benefit of replacing it with the 2413S "dual band" unit?  Would the dual band capability help with communicating with the IOLink units?

 

Thanks very much for your insights!

[oberkc]

I don't believe the IOLincs are dual-band, so I do not expect a new PLM to help.  With such a limited number of insteon devices (and no dual-band), have you confirmed you have communication between the two legs of your electrical system?  If you get a new PLM AND a range extender (installed on opposite leg), it could help solve your problem.

 

Do you have an x-10 phase coupler of some type?

 

My opinion is that there is always interference present, and evolving...it is only a question of whether the interference is severe enough to cause problems for your automation devices.  When it starts causing problems, finding it is a painful process.  You can temporarily move the PLM (or use an extension cord to plug it into another circuit) to see if anything changes.

[robhouston]

Thanks very much for the reply, oberkc.  Yes, I have an X-10 phase coupler installed, and I don't think I've had a problem with communication between the two legs.  

 

I can certainly move the PLM and ISY units to test, so that probably will be my next step.  Permanent installation will be a bit more difficult than what I have now, but if moving the units closer to the IOLinks solves the problem, I'll have to figure out the installation issues.

 

Thanks also for confirming that the IOLinks won't really benefit from the dual band capabilities of the newer PLM.

[paulbates]

Following oberkc's suggestion, I had to put an insteon dualband accesspoint in my garage to get it to work properly. Its at detached garage and I placed the access point (now called insteon range extender) on an outlet so it was line of site to dualband switches on that side of the house. That was 5 years ago and have had no further problems with it

 

I put my ISY and plm near my electrical panel so its in the center of my electrical system. I used the insteon signalinc bridge on 2 open breakers of my panel to bridge the legs of the power system. I also have dual band devices on the first floor since the PLM is tucked in behind the electrical panel.
 

Also, oberkc is correct that iolincs are not dual band, they are powerline only.

 

Paul

[robhouston]

Thanks for the response, Paul.  I have an X-10 bridge in place, but not an Insteon bridge.  I assume there is a difference?  Perhaps that's what I need to resolve the comm issues, since I'm only using IOLink's at this time, and they are powerline only.

 

Thanks again!

[paulbates]

I was a long time X10 user and still have one of these bridges on my panel. There is a slight difference between X10 and Insteon and X10 powerline frequency (120khz vs 131khz). Typically these x10 bridges should work for insteon too, but I had inconsistencies similar to what you are reporting and added the insteon signalbridge too. The results were remarkable for me.

 

I believe plugging the PLM in right at my power panel and adding a signallinc have been critical in getting insteon to work overall. Having said that, adding a range extender may or may not help you as you have no other dualband devices besides your PLM, and its in the basement which might make its rf unreachable to the garage.

 

If your plan is to move to insteon over time, I would seriously consider the signallinc. Takes a little bit to put in, but the bang for the buck was high for me. You may need to consider adding several range extenders on circuits that have problems. I have one in my garage as noted.

 

Paul

[robhouston]

My PLM is the 2412S, which is power line only, so I don't think the range extenders will help me.

 

Thanks again, Paul, for the suggestions.

[Brian H]

The X10 bridge should work fine. The wire in Insteon bridge now being sold use to be the X10 one and I don't think they tuned it from X10 120kHz  to Insteon 131.65kHz.

If it is like the X10Pro XPCP with a tuned set of transformers. I can't say how well that type would work on Insteon

 

If it is an X10 Repeater Coupler. It maybe a problem in some places. Some of the models saw the tail end of an Insteon message as an X10 one and tried to repeat it. Corrupting the Insteon command.

 

A range extender may help. If it can take the power line communications from the 2412S and send them to another Dual Band module, that is in communications distance of the problem I/O Linc.

 

Hard to say if power cycling the ISY994i and 2412S fixes thing for a time but it can be an indication the 2412S PLM maybe starting to fail.

 

The I/O Linc also has a switching power supply in it and maybe starting to fail like the well known 2413S two year failures. Especially the early ones with smaller capacitors in them.

 

Computing equipment can frequently make power line noise or signal suck signals. If the PLM is on the same circuit and not on a filter. My computing gear is on a FilterLinc and the PLM is in the front unfiltered pass through outlet.

[stusviews]

Even if you have nothing but powerline devices, Range Extenders will help. The Range Extender (you need at least two) work by taking the powerline signal, translating it to RF and then sending the RF signal to another Range extender which, in turn translates the RF to powerline.

 

The Insteon and X10 powerline signals are close enough to that a powerline couple for one is equally as effective as a powerline coupler for the other. The same is not true for RF, Insteon RF is vasly different than X10 RF,

so Range Extenders will not help X10 devices at all.

 

robhouston, you mentioned an X10 repeater/coupler. As BrianH metioned, some of these are detrimental to Insteon signals. Having always worked is not a criterion. Your car always worked until it didn't, you're TV always worked until it didn't, you're washing machine ..., your garbage disposal ..., you get the idea. Things age.

 

If you've added any electronics, especially USB chargers, they place a bit more noise on the powerline.

 

BTW, you can use any two dual-band devices to couple the legs of the split, single-phase electric supply. It's just that Range Extenders are convenient as is any dual-band plug in devices.

[robhouston]

Brian - Thanks for the suggestions.  I have 3 of the IOLinks, and when one them has a comm problem, they have all the comm problems, so I'm thinking it's something unrelated to the actual IOLink units.  For an X-10 repeater, I'm using a JV Engineering XTBR ( http://jvde.us/xtbr.htm ), which made a huge difference in my installation.

 

Stu - thanks for the suggestion of using either two range extenders or two dual-band insteon units to bridge the power line.  I'm thinking of expanding my system slightly, so I may have the opportunity to add insteon units anyway.

 

Thanks to you both for the helpful input!

[Brian H]

OH if all three work or not work at the same time. You may have a intermittent power line signal sucker or noise maker.

 

On X10 but much of Jeff's Troubleshooting Tutorials can give some help with Insteon.

I find the one on a simple cell phone charger. Making total noise right on the X10 120kHz line frequency. That is not too far away from the Insteon 131.65kHz.

http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm

[IndyMike]

Brian - Thanks for the suggestions.  I have 3 of the IOLinks, and when one them has a comm problem, they have all the comm problems, so I'm thinking it's something unrelated to the actual IOLink units.  For an X-10 repeater, I'm using a JV Engineering XTBR ( http://jvde.us/xtbr.htm ), which made a huge difference in my installation.

 

 

Rob,

 

The XTBR is an excellent X10 repeater/Booster.  Jeff designed it to specifically NOT interfere with Insteon communication.

 

Unfortunately, the XTBR will NOT couple Insteon signals across you panel legs.  If you do not have a passive (wire-in) bridge like the 2406 or plug in insteon repeaters (2) you are not really coupled for Insteon.  If this is the case, you could try troubleshooting by moving the PLM to one of the opposite electrical panel legs.

[robhouston]

Thanks, Brian and Mike.  I've been through the troubleshooting tutorial with no luck, at this point.  I also have the wired-in X-10 power line bridge, which I believe should also bridge Insteon signals.  

 

My latest problem seems to be getting reliable status updates for the IOLinks.  It seems that I can open and close the garage doors with them, but it takes several minutes to get the status update of the senors, if the status updates happen at all.  I think I'm going to drag out the ladder and reset the IOLinks, but if that doesn't resolve the problem, I'm still wondering if I have a failing PLM.

 

Thanks again for all of the great suggestions.

[paulbates]

If status is a problem while the openers are working, that's an indicator that the door motors are injecting noise on the powerline while they are running. It makes sense you can send the first message to get the opener started, then the noise comes from the motor and no more updates.

 

Since the iloinc is single band, its power line comms are getting stepped on by the noise. You can try installing an XPNR on one of them right at the opener and see if that gets rid of it. If it does, get another for the other door. I've had good luck with using them for motor noise.

 

Paul

 

Thanks, Brian and Mike.  I've been through the troubleshooting tutorial with no luck, at this point.  I also have the wired-in X-10 power line bridge, which I believe should also bridge Insteon signals.  

 

My latest problem seems to be getting reliable status updates for the IOLinks.  It seems that I can open and close the garage doors with them, but it takes several minutes to get the status update of the senors, if the status updates happen at all.  I think I'm going to drag out the ladder and reset the IOLinks, but if that doesn't resolve the problem, I'm still wondering if I have a failing PLM.

 

Thanks again for all of the great suggestions.

[robhouston]

Well, that hasn't been a problem in the past, and what's happening, for example, is that after the doors close, and the motor is no longer running, the status is not updated.  So, I'm a bit perplexed by this recent development, but I need to do some additional work on it.

 

Thanks again, Paul!

[paulbates]

Rob, sure

 

Insteon does (edit) not retry forever. Typically 3 times within 4 - 5 seconds. If you have your ISY daily query on, the next time it would catch it would be 3am the next day.

 

It may be that the noise was not enough in the past to be a problem, but something new plugged in on the circuit has added to the problem

 

 

Paul

[robhouston]

Yes, I'm going to have to devote some serious time to finding noise sources.  I'm still a bit suspicious of the PLM, since it's pretty old, but at this point, I don't have another to try.

 

Thanks, Paul.

[paulbates]

Rob

 

Ugh... I edited my last post.. Insteon does not retry forever was what I meant 

 

It has been true for me, more than once.. that certain problems have multiple root causes. To the extent you can shore you insteon infrastructure (proper dual band placement, signalinc, both, troubleshooting big noisemakers) up front, the easier it gets over time.

 

Paul

[Brian H]

I have seen some garage door openers having LED bulbs that caused issues. Mostly with the RF remotes but maybe power line also.

I saw one of the manufacturers actually have a LED bulb for their openers that does not cause issues.

Maybe you could try a different bulb in one of yours.

[robhouston]

Thanks, Brian, but I've had LED bulbs in my openers for years, and they have never caused issues, so I don't think that is the recent issue that has developed.

 

Thanks for the suggestion, though.

[mwester]

Thanks, Brian, but I've had LED bulbs in my openers for years, and they have never caused issues, so I don't think that is the recent issue that has developed.

 

Thanks for the suggestion, though.

 

Ah, but it needn't be any recent changes that YOU made!

 

The switching power supplies change as they age (consider an extreme example: the Insteon PLM that dies after two years because it's switching power supply capacitors go bad!).  So it may be that your LED's power supplies have become noisy as they age.  That's easy to test, so go do it!  Harder to test is the power supply in your garage door opener -- hopefully, though, it's plugged in rather than hard-wired.

 

My Genie door opener is one of the many noise-generators in my home - so I ended up putting an Insteon FilterLinc in my garage, with a power strip -- and into that I've plugged the door opener (noisy), the 12v landscape lighting transformer (which to my astonishment was also noisy), and my DeWalt battery charger (which I also discovered to be a very noisy device).

[stusviews]

Things age. Motors and LED bulbs are no exception. Aging devices that were fine at one time often put enough noise on the powerline to interfere where at one time that didn't. Both my GDO motors and subsequently, the lights are on FilterLincs.

 

As has been stated, I/O Lincs are powerline only. If you have an available plug-in Insteon device, try plugging it the pass-through outlet on an I/O Linc. It that helps, that a Range Extender is your solution, at least for now. Or a FilterLinc.

 

BTW, that something worked for years is absolutely no reason to not suspect it. On the contrary, that tire was never flat before, the washing machine has always worked and so has the HVAC. You get the idea

[robhouston]

Thanks for those thoughts, mwester and Stu.  I spent some quality time last night attempting to find noise sources, and I'm going to continue the process later today.  I hope to either identify noise that is potentially interfering with Insteon powerline communications (X-10 communications continue to be flawless), or provide some evidence that points more clearly to the PLM failing.  At this point, I'm still suspicious of the 2412S PLM, since it has a 2007 date code, making it at least 10 years old.

 

More to follow........

[robhouston]

SOLVED ---- Maybe!

 

Okay, so I spent more time this morning trying to run down possible noise sources affecting my IOLinks in the garage, and I think I found the main culprit.  It seems that my wife's business desktop computer, which is located in her office on the garage side of the house, was interfering with the IOLink communications to the powerline-only 2412S PLM at the other side of the house.  This computer is used several hours nearly every day, which seems to have caused the significant problems with Insteon, at least recently

 

Once I figured this out, I placed a spare X10 Pro Plugin Filter (XPPF) on the computer power cable, and since then, everything seems to be operating normally.  I'll do some additional testing over the coming days, but I'm optimistic that I've found the main problem.

 

I'm still a bit concerned with my aged 2412S PLM, so I'm contemplating getting a new 2413S and another dual-band device to place on the opposite power leg to perhaps improve the communications.

 

Thanks to all for your suggestions and help!

 

Rob

 

 

[Brian H]

Glad you found it.

Computer power supplies are one of the frequently known culprits.