Power outages: Boot up sequence

[maxnorth]

We have frequent, short power outages where I live.  I do not have a UPS for my ISY or PLM.  I've had multiple instances after a power outage where I have poor device communication after power returns.  I have solved these by manually rebooting: PLM first, followed by the ISY.

 

It appears that if both these units reboot simultaneously without intervention (as would normally occur when the power comes back on), then the system does not function properly. 

 

If this is the case (I'm asking), would it not make sense for UDI to change the ISY firmware so that there is a reboot delay, giving the PLM time to reboot fully first?

[Teken]

This has already been addressed by using the firmware that supports Z-Wave / ZigBee. Where the system assumes there is no 2413S PLM. Using this firmware will allow your system to boot up fine even if the PLM is not present or on line.

 

Having said this if your network is not up and online (Router, ISP Modem) you will have other issues regardless of the firmware in use.

 

Deploying UPS for the entire network even a small one is a good investment over the long term.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ScottAvery]

Can't put a PLM on UPS though, can you?  Or do you rely on RF for first hop?  Don't you have issues with PLM going down while ISY is up?

[Teken]

Can't put a PLM on UPS though, can you?  Or do you rely on RF for first hop?  Don't you have issues with PLM going down while ISY is up?

 

Not sure if your question is directed toward me or the OP. In case its for me the entire home is powered by a 24.7.365 pure sine wave 120 / 240 APC Symetra UPS. That is only one of four layers of redundant power systems in the home which protect the home and its electronics.  

[ScottAvery]

Not sure if your question is directed toward me or the OP. In case its for me the entire home is powered by a 24.7.365 pure sine wave 120 / 240 APC Symetra UPS. That is only one of four layers of redundant power systems in the home which protect the home and its electronics.  

 

That's not going to be a common situation, and clearly isn't for the OP, or me for that matter.  With a stand-alone UPS like you would use on a computer, will PLM comms go through the device if you are on the protected circuit?

[mwester]

No, with a common ordinary UPS used for computer sorts of devices, you will NOT get the PLM to communicate through it.  And in fact, at least on the line-side of the UPS, it will put enough noise on the electrical lines that attempting to use it without a FilterLinc will result in degraded or no comms on the line side of the UPS as well.

 

So, in summary, it is a true statement that common UPS devices are incompatible with the PLM's power-line communications.

[Teken]

That's not going to be a common situation, and clearly isn't for the OP, or me for that matter.  With a stand-alone UPS like you would use on a computer, will PLM comms go through the device if you are on the protected circuit?

 

Power Line signaling would be lost but RF would be used in that case. Keeping in mind this assumes you placed the PLM on a Insteon Filter Linc. Simply placing the 2413S PLM on a small dedicated UPS would probably introduce signaling issues.

 

There have been a couple of users who have gone this route who state it works fine . . .

[paulbates]

We have frequent, short power outages where I live.  I do not have a UPS for my ISY or PLM.  I've had multiple instances after a power outage where I have poor device communication after power returns.  I have solved these by manually rebooting: PLM first, followed by the ISY.

 

It appears that if both these units reboot simultaneously without intervention (as would normally occur when the power comes back on), then the system does not function properly. 

 

If this is the case (I'm asking), would it not make sense for UDI to change the ISY firmware so that there is a reboot delay, giving the PLM time to reboot fully first?

 

 

I think something else is wrong. We average a power outage maybe every year and a half. The ISY and PLM come back no problem. Some older devices like togglincs occasionally have heartburn over extended brownouts and need to be factory reset.

 

When you say "manually reboot the PLM", do you mean unplugging and re-plugging it back in? It might be that the PLM is older and also has been affected by the frequent black outs. You might try factory resetting it and then follow that up with a "Restore modem" from the ISY admin console's file menue

 

Paul

[ScottAvery]

Not sure if your question is directed toward me or the OP. In case its for me the entire home is powered by a 24.7.365 pure sine wave 120 / 240 APC Symetra UPS. That is only one of four layers of redundant power systems in the home which protect the home and its electronics.  

 

Following up: I Couldn't find a whole-house type application on the APC site.  How does one size/spec this product?  How does APC label it?   Can it be tied in with a propane/gas backup generator to eliminate the 1 min downtime?

[maxnorth]

Thanks, Paul.  Yes, unplug and then plug back in.  I had noticed that the wiki instructions for replacing your PLM (as I have done a couple of times) specify plugging the PLM in first so that the ISY does not get confused, which is why it occurred to me that perhaps there was a sequencing issue.

 

This only happens to me sporadically.

[Teken]

Following up: I Couldn't find a whole-house type application on the APC site.  How does one size/spec this product?  How does APC label it?   Can it be tied in with a propane/gas backup generator to eliminate the 1 min downtime?

 

The APC UPS that is in my home is intended for Enterprise / Industrial applications. You would be looking at Data Centers & Industrial applications for that category. These units are *On Line* all the time and draw their trickle charge from the utility. Upon a electrical fault (loss of power) there is no spool up or cut over the system simply continues to power the branch circuits the person has assigned.

 

They are intended to provide short term filtered *Transitional Power* and not for extended power outages. 

 

A whole house generator whether gas, diesel, NG, LP is better suited for long term outages. 

 

Because the APC UPS are a hundreds of times over rated for my personal use my run time is also reflective of that. My homes mean average load is under 200 watts RMS and because the system is spec'd to provide more than 16kVA per tower X 8.

 

That is 128 kVA . . .

 

Which is weeks of power for my home and family.

 

The single phase 120 / 240 VAC Symmetra I have are older units which are at this time being deprecated in my home. Having eight fridge sized UPS in the basement wasn't something I planned on having over the long term. Six of them have been taken out of rotation and are being readied for a new home.

[ScottAvery]

The APC UPS that is in my home is intended for Enterprise / Industrial applications. You would be looking at Data Centers & Industrial applications for that category. These units are *On Line* all the time and draw their trickle charge from the utility. Upon a electrical fault (loss of power) there is no spool up or cut over the system simply continues to power the branch circuits the person has assigned.

 

They are intended to provide short term filtered *Transitional Power* and not for extended power outages. 

 

A whole house generator whether gas, diesel, NG, LP is better suited for long term outages. 

 

Because the APC UPS are a hundreds of times over rated for my personal use my run time is also reflective of that. My homes mean average load is under 200 watts RMS and because the system is spec'd to provide more than 16kVA per tower X 8.

 

That is 128 kVA . . .

 

Which is weeks of power for my home and family.

 

The single phase 120 / 240 VAC Symmetra I have are older units which are at this time being deprecated in my home. Having eight fridge sized UPS in the basement wasn't something I planned on having over the long term. Six of them have been taken out of rotation and are being readied for a new home.

Yeah, so, why? 

[Teken]

Yeah, so, why? 

 

I don't understand your question?

[ScottAvery]

I don't understand your question?

 

Why any of it, really?  Why do you have weeks of battery backup installed, taking up the space of 8 refridgerators?   How do you live at 200 watts consumption?  If that is the case, why automation?  Wouldn't candles be easier? 

[Teken]

Why any of it, really?  Why do you have weeks of battery backup installed, taking up the space of 8 refridgerators?   How do you live at 200 watts consumption?  If that is the case, why automation?  Wouldn't candles be easier? 

 

I was living a completely different lifestyle many years ago before the whole *Energy Management* bug caught me by the tail. The back story on the UPS is I am a avid auction / close out goer. Back in the day winning over 150K worth of hardware at fraction of the costs was something I couldn't pass by.

 

So I bought the lot and it was the first iteration of my back up systems . . .

 

As time went on my needs, goals, and priorities changed and thus have been on the endless journey to be NET Zero. These legacy UPS's don't fit into that goal and given their physical size don't fit into my home if I want to recoup that space.

 

So they gots to go . . .

 

The (approx) 150 ~ 200 watts RMS is the standby draw on the home at all times from the systems in the home. 

 

Candles???