raptor Posted January 6, 2018 Share Posted January 6, 2018 I just replaced a 8 button keypad using the replace function in the control panel and some of the program I had set up to run on button press are not working. I can successfully control the keypad from the control panel however button press are not appearing in the log so I assume the isy is not seeing the button press so that's why the programs are not being triggered. Any idea what is causing this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oberkc Posted January 6, 2018 Share Posted January 6, 2018 Could be a lot of things, but my first instinct is to suspect PLM is surrounded by lots of other noisy gadgets. What else do you have plugged into the outlet and circuits powering the PLM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted January 6, 2018 Share Posted January 6, 2018 Are any KPL buttons scene controllers? If so, do the scenes function correctly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raptor Posted January 6, 2018 Author Share Posted January 6, 2018 Could be a lot of things, but my first instinct is to suspect PLM is surrounded by lots of other noisy gadgets. What else do you have plugged into the outlet and circuits powering the PLM? Yes the PLM is surrounded by other gadgets. It's in my media closet with lots off other home automation devices. The keypad I replaced was working fine and all my other keypads are working fine regardless. Why would this suddenly affect a new device. Are any KPL buttons scene controllers? If so, do the scenes function correctly? Yes some of the buttons are scene controllers and does appear to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oberkc Posted January 6, 2018 Share Posted January 6, 2018 Yes the PLM is surrounded by other gadgets. It's in my media closet with lots off other home automation devices. Good communication with the PLM over powerline is, in my experience, critical to a reliable system. Surrounding your PLM with devices that can interfere with insteon signals can often degrade those communications. Are those other gadgets things other than insteon devices? If so, I believe you need to start your troubleshooting by temporarily powering your PLM from another circuit ( a long extension cord can be a useful troubleshooting technique) to see if that solves (or has any affect on) your your problem. If so, then you either need to find another location for the PLM, or can try a filter on all those other non-insteon devices. As far as I am concerned, putting the PLM on a good, clean circuit without other (non-insteon) electronics is one of the basic and mandatory steps if one seeks a reliable insteon system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raptor Posted January 6, 2018 Author Share Posted January 6, 2018 I move the PLM and it made no difference. Another thing I just realized is even though I can control the keypad from the admin console if I turn the light on/off manually the status doesn't update in the admin console, however the status change does appear in the log. This is for the main button only. None of the other 7 button register in the log when manually pressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oberkc Posted January 6, 2018 Share Posted January 6, 2018 The other seven buttons show up in your list of devices, correct? What is the load on the keypad? LED light? CFL? LV? Try temporarily removing the load. Does that make a difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oberkc Posted January 6, 2018 Share Posted January 6, 2018 Have you confirmed communication between phases? (There is a test one can perform described in most dual-band device manuals.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raptor Posted January 6, 2018 Author Share Posted January 6, 2018 The other seven buttons show up in your list of devices, correct? What is the load on the keypad? LED light? CFL? LV? Try temporarily removing the load. Does that make a difference? Yes the other 7 buttons are in the list of devices. The load is 4 regular light bulbs. I removed them and tried again. For some reason the main button stop reporting in the log. I put them back in and the main button is still no longer reporting in the log when manually pressed. It does appear in the log when controlled from the admin console. And the admin console does successfully turns it on and of. After noticing this I just tried turning on/off the 7 other buttons from the admin console and I can control them and they do report to the log when switched from the admin console. Just not when manually turned on/off Have you confirmed communication between phases? (There is a test one can perform described in most dual-band device manuals.) I can't seem to find details on how to do this. However I don't think that is the issue. The old switch was working fine. I have other devices on that same circuit that work fine. And with all the switch I have in the house I'm sure they are some on both phase and none other are giving me problems. I'm starting to think I have a faulty switch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted January 6, 2018 Share Posted January 6, 2018 I move the PLM and it made no difference. Another thing I just realized is even though I can control the keypad from the admin console if I turn the light on/off manually the status doesn't update in the admin console, however the status change does appear in the log. This is for the main button only. None of the other 7 button register in the log when manually pressed. Can you be more specific what, "move the PLM," involves? What specifically did you do? Did you try a different circuit? If so, how did you ensure that it was, in fact, a different circuit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWareman Posted January 6, 2018 Share Posted January 6, 2018 Try doing a ‘restore’ of the device from the ISY Admin console. It could be the link table in your new device didn’t get written correctly on the replacement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raptor Posted January 7, 2018 Author Share Posted January 7, 2018 Can you be more specific what, "move the PLM," involves? What specifically did you do? Did you try a different circuit? If so, how did you ensure that it was, in fact, a different circuit? I know it's a different circuit because if I turn off the breaker of the new plug were I installed it it doesn't turn off the plugs in my media room were it was installed before Try doing a ‘restore’ of the device from the ISY Admin console. It could be the link table in your new device didn’t get written correctly on the replacement. I did try. Made no difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oberkc Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 When one turns off the device from the admin console, it would certainly reflect the assumed status of the device. The admin console would, in fact, assume the device was off even if the device failed to respond. When you toggle a device off manually and the new status is not reflected in the admin console, I believe this suggests that the status is not reaching the PLM, for whatever reason. Possibilities include, in no particular order of likelihood: a) failing PLM communication between phases marginal c) other electronic gadgets and appliances in the house interfering with insteon communications (this can include lighting, such as LED and CFL) d) device failures I consider it basis good practice to isolate the PLM from other electronic devices, either by putting it onto its own circuit or filtering those other devices that are on the same circuit. Equally basic is to confirm communication between legs of the electrical system. Often this can be accomplished by rapidly tapping (four times) the set device of one dual-band device and observing the response of other dual-band devices. Hopefully, you can find it in the manual. Is your PLM relatively new? The instructions for this test are in the PLM manual, titled "phase bridge". Doing both (isolated PLM and phase bridge) are, in my view, the first steps in any insteon installation. I would assume you need to do both in your installation and proceed accordingly. Often, I believe problems with insteon communications have multiple causes, so even if moving the PLM did not immediately solve your problem, it is almost a certainty that the proximity to a bunch of theater and computer stuff is not helping. Troubleshooting this is trial-and-error, unfortunately. At some point, you may want to remove your keypad and temporarily wire it to an extension cord and plug this directly into the PLM. If that works, I would typically discount a device failure and focus on pure comms issues and causes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Kohanim Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 All, http://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=INSTEON_No_Status_Feedback_From_Devices With kind regards, Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottAvery Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 It seems unlikely the problem is the PLM itself given that it is happening on one device that was changed. The link table seems more likely. Since restore didn't work I would compare link tables with other devices to see if the PLM link is there for this device. Or save a current backup, then restore one from before the device replacement to see what is different. A brute force solution might be faster - delete the device, reset it, then add it back and reprogram. (edit: Which is what you would have to do anyway if you found the link missing) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raptor Posted January 8, 2018 Author Share Posted January 8, 2018 It seems unlikely the problem is the PLM itself given that it is happening on one device that was changed. The link table seems more likely. Since restore didn't work I would compare link tables with other devices to see if the PLM link is there for this device. Or save a current backup, then restore one from before the device replacement to see what is different. A brute force solution might be faster - delete the device, reset it, then add it back and reprogram. (edit: Which is what you would have to do anyway if you found the link missing) I'll be honest. I'm not very familiar with link tables. I did check device link table for the replaced device and another 8 button keypad. The other keypad had 115 links and the replaced device has 116. Not sure what this means or if it's even relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottAvery Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 I'll be honest. I'm not very familiar with link tables. I did check device link table for the replaced device and another 8 button keypad. The other keypad had 115 links and the replaced device has 116. Not sure what this means or if it's even relevant. I have not had to look at them in ages, but what I recall is that most links show up in pairs, but there should be one single link that will be the link to PLM. That one PLM link shows up identically on every device added to the ISY, so you can probably identify it more easily looking at link tables of your switches or other devices that are in few, or no scenes. Then just make sure that link is in the offending keypad's link table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpwwer Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 I would think that the problem is more likely in the PLM's link table. The PLM should ignore any device who's address isn't in it's link table but can still send commands to those devices. Missing PLM links would fit the symptoms. Short of a restore PLM or maybe deleting and re-adding the new keypad, I'm not sure if there's a way to check/update the PLM's link table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raptor Posted January 8, 2018 Author Share Posted January 8, 2018 Deleted the device from the ISY. Did a factory reset on the device itself. Re added it to the ISY. The first 2 button press on the main button appeared on the log but not the other buttons. Now even the main is not appearing in the log and status is not updating in the admin console. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 I'd try a second factory reset. Don't rush it. Wait fully until the last beep stops. It will take a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Kohanim Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 raptor, I think it's the PLM reaching the max number of links or not storing links. Please follow the instructions in my first post. With kind regards, Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raptor Posted January 9, 2018 Author Share Posted January 9, 2018 I'd try a second factory reset. Don't rush it. Wait fully until the last beep stops. It will take a while. I will try again tonight. You say wait until the last beep. According to the manual I need to pull the set button for 10 second then press and hold. There will only be one long beep(not multiple) once it stops let go. I waited a few seconds after beep stopped before I let go. I will try again tonight to be sure. raptor, I think it's the PLM reaching the max number of links or not storing links. Please follow the instructions in my first post. With kind regards, Michel According to the link in your first post the PLM should have at least twice as many links as devices I have with preferably no more than 900. I have 90 devices and PLM has 379 links. So it looks like both criterias are being meet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Kohanim Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 raptor, Did you restore the PLM? Again, if you removing and linking the device back works, it point to either the PLM or its links (maybe the device is pointing to some other PLM?). There's really nothing else. With kind regards, Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raptor Posted January 11, 2018 Author Share Posted January 11, 2018 PLM restore did nothing. The old switch that I replace was still working when I removed it just having issues with the main button. So i decided to re install it. When re adding it to the ISY i chose the keep links option. This old switch worked perfectly. So I put the new one back in and used the replace device with, hoping it would copy the links from the old devices. It still doesn't track status. Additionally I noticed it only created a device for the main button but not the 7 others. I'm sure it did when I first installed it. Did a factory reset and added it again to the ISY without replace device and again it only created a device for the main button. Not sure if any of this narrows anything down. Isn't it at all possible that I just got a faulty devices? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oberkc Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 I assume faulty devices are always a possibility. Unfortunately, the only way I know to identify them is to eliminate all other possibilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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