Scene problems

[DaveBH]

I just installed a new ISY994i and PLM to replace an Insteon Hub that was annoying me by dropping offline way too frequently. I linked all my devices and re-created my scenes. Everything was reset except my mini-controllers, which are not linked to the ISY in any case. It worked fine, for about a week, then my scenes started dropping devices. 9 out of ten lights would respond to a scene, but not that 10th, and not every time. Scenes will work fine most of the time, but once in a while (not every day, but at least 3-4 times a week) all but one or all but two lights won't respond to the scene. Sometimes when I trigger the scene repeatedly, the stragglers will respond, but not always.

 

I would have assumed this was an Insteon communication problem, except for one thing: every single time, the devices that don't respond to a scene respond perfectly when triggered directly. If a light doesn't respond to the scene activation, I can just have the ISY turn on or off that one light, and that works every time. It's only whan part of a scene they are dropping out.

 

I'm not even sure how to troubleshoot this, and, of course, it's intermittent just enough to make it a real pain to track down. Any ideas?

[oberkc]

Certainly having the mini controller separate from the ISY gives me concern.  This suggests that some devices have links that are unkown to the ISY.  This cannot be good, in my mind.  It sounds as if what you are dealing with (if not direct comm issues) is corrupt links.  

 

Have you performed a link comparision for the devices that are failing to respond?

[stusviews]

Just to be clear, by mini controllers do you mean Miini Remotes or Micro Modules? If the former, then turn off all the remotes for a while. Does the problem recur? If the latter, then you need to reset them, also.

[Goose66]

If the mini remotes still work but are not in the ISY, then I agree with oberkc, you may have corrupted link tables in some of the devices.

 

However, I experience the same problems you are all the time. It is usually when the scene is activated in an ISY program. Activating the scene with a KPL button or switch works fine, but if I activate it with the ISY, one or two devices will fail, but not the same ones and not all the time. This is partially due to the fact that the ISY doesn't do scene cleanup after sending a scene command. But I believe it is also due to spurious noise in my electrical system - noise from the dozen or so fluorescent/CFL lights still left in my home, a stray driver module in an LED bulb, the pool pump, the ice maker, etc. This would account for the random nature of it all. After 10+ years of Insteon in two separate houses, however, I feel like this is par for the course.

[DaveBH]

I wanted to leave the mini controllers out of the ISY as a backup. I only have two. But when I was using the Insteon hub (I deleted all devices and scenes from it before defaulting it, by they way), if it failed, which was regularly, I needed the mini to turn lights off. The are the non-removable battery type, the only way to eliminate them would be to remove all their links manually or put them outside in the car. I hesitate to default them, as it was a real pain to assign groups of lights to the buttons, and I see no reason to have them on the ISY.

 

I have done a link comparison on all the lights that have acted up. They all show up "identical."

 

I also can't imagine it's electrical noise. The scenes that used to be in the hub worked fine, every time. It's the Echo integration of the Insteon hub that failed regularly, not the hub itself and it's stand-alone function. 

[oberkc]

I have done a link comparison on all the lights that have acted up. They all show up "identical."​

 

Good feedback.  This suggests, in my mind, that it is NOT a link problem.

 

I wanted to leave the mini controllers out of the ISY as a backup.​

 

What are these devices?  Are they not the remotelinc2? Do they still control the same devices?  Are these controlled devices any that are giving you trouble?

 

Do you have the PLM in the same outlet as you once had the hub?  If not, try moving it to the other location.  

 

Unfortunately, my perceptions from reading many posts here are that any given insteon device can have more or less robust communication than another version of the same device.  One PLM may be better than another PLM, which may be better (or worse) than a hub.  I don't think it is going to be this easy to dismiss "electrical noise" as you hope.

[stusviews]

DaveBH, you have not identified what the devices are although you were asked twice. That's important, as the trouble-shooting depends on what it is that you're trouble-shooting. One thing for sure, there is no Insteon device called a mini controller.

[DaveBH]

DaveBH, you have not identified what the devices are although you were asked twice. That's important, as the trouble-shooting depends on what it is that you're trouble-shooting. One thing for sure, there is no Insteon device called a mini controller.

 

 

Sorry, I thought I did, but I misspoke: Mini Remotes (https://www.smarthome.com/insteon-2342-222-mini-remote-8-scene.html). They can't be "turned off."

 

I repeat, these work fine. They are my backup. I don't want to put them on the ISY, as when the ISY fails to activate my scenes properly, these are how I do it.

[larryllix]

ISY awareness of the links will not affect their operation.

 

The mini-remotes and all Insteon devices, should be factory reset before linking with ISY, and then created fresh, under ISY management.

[stusviews]

If the Mini Remote is not added to the ISY, how did you manage to control a scene using a Mimi Remote button?

[DaveBH]

I stand corrected on one point - they can be turned off. I just missed the switch.

 

That said, they were linked directly before I even had an ISY. Put them in linking mode, press a button, then activate the device you want linked. To make a scene, you have to do that for each and every device on the button. It's a royal pain. Essentially, I am creating a parallel scene on the remote button, and I think by far the best solution is to unlink them all, and add them to the ISY, but I do need that backup if the ISY scene is not reliable.

 

One of my scenes is a "goodnight" scene that shuts almost everything in my home off (which is not huge). The entire point is to be able to trip the scene when going to bed. I am using an Amazon Echo to trigger it, but that is not the source of the problem, as most of the lights do go off, and I have to repeat the command several times. Yet, if I individually tell the Echo to turn off the stragglers, they go off first time.

 

I am starting to believe it is in fact a communications problem, but if so, I have no control over the environment (I rent). I suspect the Echo, if it doesn't hear back from the individual device, repeats the command for a certain amount of time until it responds. But it does not with ISY scenes, it just immediately says OK, and sometimes it works, and sometimes it does not. I am just looking for a way to make this reliable. The Insteon Hub worked every time with the same devices. But it had other limitations that I didn't want to live with. That said, I am starting to feel like replacing it was a mistake.

[DaveBH]

ISY awareness of the links will not affect their operation.

 

The mini-remotes and all Insteon devices, should be factory reset before linking with ISY, and then created fresh, under ISY management.

 

Then I will have unreliable scenes with no backup way to trigger them. Mini remotes are not responders. They are passive until a button is pressed. I cannot believe that externally triggered scenes are affected by them when they are just sitting there, asleep.

[stusviews]

Info only: creating a scene manually and creating a scene using the ISY is identical, except that if you create the scene manually, the ISY won't know about. Try it. Create a scene using the ISY and a Mini Remote button. Unplug the ISY. The Mini remote still controls the scene.

 

Is the errant device that doesn't turn off always the same or does it vary?

[oberkc]

Then I will have unreliable scenes with no backup way to trigger them. Mini remotes are not responders.

As stusviews has suggested, ISY awareness of the links will not affect thier operation. A scene between two devices, whether created manually or with ISY, works the same, and works whether the ISY is present or not present.

 

It seems that you dont trust or believe much of the advice given here. Yet, your inability to solve this on your own has lead you to seek help here. Perhaps you should reconsider your approach?

[larryllix]

Then I will have unreliable scenes with no backup way to trigger them. Mini remotes are not responders. They are passive until a button is pressed. I cannot believe that externally triggered scenes are affected by them when they are just sitting there, asleep.

You will have reliable scenes due to knowing about them and all their included links will be shown in ISY.

ISY is a great scene link manager and can help understand the underlying link mess you can create without it.

[IndyMike]

I would have assumed this was an Insteon communication problem, except for one thing: every single time, the devices that don't respond to a scene respond perfectly when triggered directly. If a light doesn't respond to the scene activation, I can just have the ISY turn on or off that one light, and that works every time. It's only whan part of a scene they are dropping out.

 

I'm not even sure how to troubleshoot this, and, of course, it's intermittent just enough to make it a real pain to track down. Any ideas?

 

When the ISY executes a scene it "assumes" that the responding devices heard and executed the command.  There is no interrogation of the scene members to ensure they heard the command.  There are no re-tries. 

 

When you execute a "device direct" command the ISY/plm send device cleanup requests to ensure the command was executed, and if necessary,  execute retries.

[DaveBH]

Info only: creating a scene manually and creating a scene using the ISY is identical, except that if you create the scene manually, the ISY won't know about. Try it. Create a scene using the ISY and a Mini Remote button. Unplug the ISY. The Mini remote still controls the scene.

 

Is the errant device that doesn't turn off always the same or does it vary?

The scenes work perfectly, every time, with the mini remote. 

[DaveBH]

As stusviews has suggested, ISY awareness of the links will not affect thier operation. A scene between two devices, whether created manually or with ISY, works the same, and works whether the ISY is present or not present.

 

It seems that you dont trust or believe much of the advice given here. Yet, your inability to solve this on your own has lead you to seek help here. Perhaps you should reconsider your approach?

You mistake reluctance with not believing. I do not understand the nuances, and that is why I came here. I am willing to take advice, but I want to understand the reasoning first. Mind you, the only thing I have not done is factory resetting my mini remotes, as they are the one thing right now that works properly, and it sounds like I am being advised to break those too just to see if it works. I do not understand how that can make a difference. Enlighten me before you belittle me, please. I am not an amateur, just new to ISY.

[oberkc]

Unfortunately, my experience is that troubleshooting IS trial-and-error.  Yes, it is possible that this will not fix your problem, but it would eliminate one possibility.  As you eliminate possibilities, you will eventually find the solution.  Also, in my mind, I CAN imagine interference remaining as one possible cause of your problems.  You may need to be open to exploring this possibility.

 

Scenes created by the ISY are, like scenes created manually, between the devices directly.  The link would be the same and they require no intervention by the ISY.  In fact, they would work without the ISY.  I don't believe you risk losing your backup control.

[IndyMike]

The scenes work perfectly, every time, with the mini remote. 

 

Absolutely.  Your mini remote and any other Insteon device will perform cleanup and retries of all scene members.  The ISY WILL NOT.

 

Try linking another Insteon device to the scene (keypad, etc).  If it can control all of the scene members (and the ISY cannot) you have noise or signal absorption causing communication issues.

[DaveBH]

Absolutely.  Your mini remote and any other Insteon device will perform cleanup and retries of all scene members.  The ISY WILL NOT.

 

Try linking another Insteon device to the scene (keypad, etc).  If it can control all of the scene members (and the ISY cannot) you have noise or signal absorption causing communication issues.

Thank you, I suspect that is in fact what is happening. It fits the facts far better, though I will try what you suggest when I get the chance.

Any suggestions on how communications may be made more reliable?

[stusviews]

More dual-band devices will increase range and reliability, but won't overcome powereline interference.

[IndyMike]

Thank you, I suspect that is in fact what is happening. It fits the facts far better, though I will try what you suggest when I get the chance.

Any suggestions on how communications may be made more reliable?

 

 

1.  As oberkc mentioned earlier, check the location of your PLM VS the position where you previously had the hub.  It is imperative that the PLM be on a "clean" circuit without signal absorbers.   I generally like to locate the PLM close to the electrical panel.  The panel is the crossroads for all powerline communication and it's normally the quietest point in the system. 
2. Check your coupling between the electrical panel legs (4 tap test).  Not sure of the vintage of your installed devices - signalincs, or dual band modules.  As Stu indicated, communication levels can be improved by adding dual band devices to areas where signal levels are low (absorbed).  This approach will normally not work with noise because it effectively "jams" the repeaters.
3. The ISY does have a "scene test" function that could allow you to operate the scene and observe units that have a problem "hearing" the scene command.  Unfortunately, it's somewhat of a PITA to use.  Communications tend to upset the results.  You'll need to disable your programs (I use a folder variable to disable everything), and try not to activate motion sensors.
4. Bottom line, you are looking for a device that is generating noise at the Insteon frequency (uncommon) or absorbing the signal (very common).  If you can determine where the problem devices are in your electrical system (which breaker(s)), look for possible problem devices on that circuit (TV's, audio, chargers, laptops).

It's very possible that your system was marginal when you were using the HUB.  Your devices may have been dependent on retries (not a good situation).  Switching to the ISY then showed the problem because of it's different approach to scene communication.  

 

Eliminating the communication problem is the correct way to go.  Anything else is a bandaid.

[DaveBH]

1. The PLM is literally in the same outlet that the Insteon Hub was plugged into, which is maybe 5' from the panel. I have outlets that are closer, but getting the PLM connected to the ISY from them would be problematic

2. I'm not sure what you are referring to by a "4 tap test." All of my Insteon devices are less than two years old, I was using X10 prior to that. All of my devices are dual-band except the mini-remotes.

3. I've run several scene tests, and they always pass with flying colors. That said, the scenes that are acting up may be fine for days, then fail once or twice and be fine again for days. I'd much rather they acted up all the time, it would be so much easier to find the issue.

4. There are so many electronic devices, it would be tricky to try to isolate them, but I suppose I have no real choice. Computers get turned off at night (also when my scenes get fired), but that still leaves a lot of things. Every wall outlet in my apartment is on one of two breakers. Shutting the breakers off will kill the very lights I'm testing, so that's no help. I'll have to just unplug things one at a time every night until I get a consistent response.

 

I agree, comms were likely marginal from the start. But even if retries are a band-aid on the problem, they did work, and sometimes band-aids are the only viable solution, even when not ideal. 

[stusviews]

Turning a device off does not necessarily disconnect it from power. It must be unplugged or disconnected. Are you having difficulties with device on both circuits or just one of the two?