arf1410 Posted February 4, 2018 Posted February 4, 2018 Thinking about ordering the z-wave upgrade, and going that direct ion a bit. Should I wait until Universal Devices has a z-wave plus version available? Any idea if that is in work? And if not, why not?
lilyoyo1 Posted February 4, 2018 Posted February 4, 2018 If you are planning on buying zwave devices, then you might as well start with the latest versions. Even though the ISY can't take advantage of the upgrades right now, at least you will be ready when it is. Zwave plus devices still work with the current ISY so you'd still be able to use them.
KeviNH Posted February 4, 2018 Posted February 4, 2018 Thinking about ordering the z-wave upgrade, and going that direct ion a bit. Should I wait until Universal Devices has a z-wave plus version available? Any idea if that is in work? And if not, why not? There's no ETA for a Z-Wave Plus™ version of the ISY-994 module, but I wouldn't let that deter you from buying backwards-compatible Z-Wave plus devices. IIRC, the official position of ISY is "We are working towards Z-Wave Plus and it will likely be part of the next official Z-Wave release (5.0.X)," and also note that "Z-Wave Plus is a certification thing with icons and some features that only Gen 5 can provide but it's not a necessity. In short, we can get Z-Wave Plus certification even without having Gen 5 hardware. We are going to do both"
stusviews Posted February 4, 2018 Posted February 4, 2018 If you want to keep your pleasure for a later date, then wait. Personally, I want to have fun now
asbril Posted February 4, 2018 Posted February 4, 2018 Te new generation of Zwave switches, aside from Zwave Plus, also come with Instant Status reporting, which works with ISY. For some of us the extended range and speed of Zwave Plus are important. For me the Instant Status reporting is more important.
stusviews Posted February 5, 2018 Posted February 5, 2018 Te new generation of Zwave switches, aside from Zwave Plus, also come with Instant Status reporting, which works with ISY. For some of us the extended range and speed of Zwave Plus are important. For me the Instant Status reporting is more important. I'm already familiar with the limited range of Z-Wave devices having to install one or more repeaters (e.g., siren, doorbell, Gen6 Range Extender). But what have you found about speed when compared with Insteon response time other than subjective observations? Too, I'm in full agreement that instant status reporting is of the utmost significance.
asbril Posted February 5, 2018 Posted February 5, 2018 I'm already familiar with the limited range of Z-Wave devices having to install one or more repeaters (e.g., siren, doorbell, Gen6 Range Extender). But what have you found about speed when compared with Insteon response time other than subjective observations? Too, I'm in full agreement that instant status reporting is of the utmost significance. ".......Z-Wave Plus improves on the original specifications of Z-Wave by making use of the latest advancements in this exciting technology. With the introduction of the Next-Gen, Z-Wave has extended its capabilities, including increased range, extended battery life, Over The Air upgrading (OTA), additional RF channels and more - all of which are fully backwards compatible with existing Z-Wave products. These enhancements offer tremendous benefits in terms of shorter and easier installations, richer device profiles, improved self-healing and longer battery life......" Maybe I am wrong about the speed, but range and battery life for sure. My personal experience, with about 60 Zwave devices, is that with the mesh technology I do not need extenders. I have read a lot about locks needing extenders but I do not need a Zwave lock in my condo. However in a few weeks I will be installing a Zwave lock in my son's home. My assumption (to be verified) is that my son won't need an extender either as there will be switches near the lock that hopefully will 'mesh' the lock in the network.
Guitartexan01 Posted February 5, 2018 Posted February 5, 2018 FWIW, my installation includes Zwave only with devices scattered throughout a 3400sq/ft two level home. I use a Nighthawk r6000 router with 24-48 hour backup UPS. I also use two Honeywell wifi tstats as well as a Kēvo with Kēvo plus. All my switches except two are Enerwave brand sold by Top Greener electrical supply on eBay and Amazon. I have had no dropped signals or service and I have not had any need for range extenders. My home is traditional stickframe construction with rock and brick exterior and Sheetrock interior walls. I installed each of the devices from closest to the isy/router and getting progressively further away from the isy/router. I utilize no Insteon or other protocol and I am integrated with Alexa echo throughout with voice control over my lights, fireplace, music, and security cameras. I can honestly say I have mainly had user error as I am deployed out of country frequently and when I return I have to update the isy. That is seriously it. Isy used as a strictly Zwave system has been a solid choice for me. I infrequently request a help ticket and have had stellar customer service. UD is a magnificent company and Michel as the owner and inventor has immense pride in his product, and with good reason- it works. My isy never gone down for no reason, and the user interface is quite simple to use. I've set mine up three years back now, and every single one of my programs executes flawlessly to this day. You won't be disappointed with your purchase of UD products. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
stusviews Posted February 5, 2018 Posted February 5, 2018 My understanding is that Z-Wave needs a "mesh" (multiple devices). I have only a few, so the repeaters are needed. That's basically true of Insteon, too. As far as speed, the ads suggest that the speed of Z-Wave has improved when compared with earlier Z-Wave devices. That's fine, but how does it compare with other protocols?
lilyoyo1 Posted February 5, 2018 Posted February 5, 2018 My understanding with zwave is that all devices need to be zwave plus in order to reap the benefits of it. I recently picked up a couple of zwave plus devices to try out and I don't see a difference in speed with my older non zwave plus devices (a year old). I've found insteon to still be faster than zwave. Since the ISY doesn't have the newest chip I can't say which is faster in regards to newer devices. With that said, zwave is much improved over what I saw years ago and is no slouch. With 60 zwave devices you probably wouldn't need an extender for your locks. This is especially true if your devices support secure beaming as that is what is needed (only the device closest to the locks need it) in order to talk to secure devices.
asbril Posted February 5, 2018 Posted February 5, 2018 My understanding with zwave is that all devices need to be zwave plus in order to reap the benefits of it. I recently picked up a couple of zwave plus devices to try out and I don't see a difference in speed with my older non zwave plus devices (a year old). I've found insteon to still be faster than zwave. Since the ISY doesn't have the newest chip I can't say which is faster in regards to newer devices. With that said, zwave is much improved over what I saw years ago and is no slouch. With 60 zwave devices you probably wouldn't need an extender for your locks. This is especially true if your devices support secure beaming as that is what is needed (only the device closest to the locks need it) in order to talk to secure devices. As I mentioned before, Instant Status Reporting was my biggest concern with older Zwave switches. Speed has never been an issue, unless someone is concerned about mini-seconds . Our master bathroom has 3 sets of lights and I created a program whereby when switching the light at the bathroom door the other lights follow On or OFF. Because the signal travels back and forth to the ISY there may be a second delay but this has never bothered me. From what I have read in this forum and on other web sites, for us to fully benefit from Zwave Plus there may need to be an upgrade in ISY and I assume that full speed benefits would require that the route traveled through the mesh network would need to be on Zwave Plus devices. I would think that range depends on the device itself and therefore should work no matter current setup.
lilyoyo1 Posted February 5, 2018 Posted February 5, 2018 As I mentioned before, Instant Status Reporting was my biggest concern with older Zwave switches. Speed has never been an issue, unless someone is concerned about mini-seconds . Our master bathroom has 3 sets of lights and I created a program whereby when switching the light at the bathroom door the other lights follow On or OFF. Because the signal travels back and forth to the ISY there may be a second delay but this has never bothered me. From what I have read in this forum and on other web sites, for us to fully benefit from Zwave Plus there may need to be an upgrade in ISY and I assume that full speed benefits would require that the route traveled through the mesh network would need to be on Zwave Plus devices. I would think that range depends on the device itself and therefore should work no matter current setup. The speed of a device and its effect is all personal preference. If I'm using a multi-way way setup, I do prefer not seeing a difference in when a light turns on. Ditto with other scenes. There's something very satisfying watching devices operate in unison at the exact moment of initiation. Can I live with a split second. Of course. Do I want to? Nope. Range has never been made clear as I get conflicting statements. I would assume it would be determined by the sending/repeating device. With that said, the are many variables to wireless range so how much greater the range is is still questionable (this applies to anything wireless including insteon and wifi). With a house full of devices, it wouldn't matter anyway. Speed is determined by the network. Zwave is only as strong as the weakest link (in this case the ISY). Since the original signature is x-speed, it stays that way to final destination. From the way speed was described to me, it's like the internet. Your router may claim 5300Mbps but if your internet is only 75Mbps that is all you are going to get.
asbril Posted February 5, 2018 Posted February 5, 2018 The speed of a device and its effect is all personal preference. If I'm using a multi-way way setup, I do prefer not seeing a difference in when a light turns on. Ditto with other scenes. There's something very satisfying watching devices operate in unison at the exact moment of initiation. Can I live with a split second. Of course. Do I want to? Nope. Range has never been made clear as I get conflicting statements. I would assume it would be determined by the sending/repeating device. With that said, the are many variables to wireless range so how much greater the range is is still questionable (this applies to anything wireless including insteon and wifi). With a house full of devices, it wouldn't matter anyway. Speed is determined by the network. Zwave is only as strong as the weakest link (in this case the ISY). Since the original signature is x-speed, it stays that way to final destination. From the way speed was described to me, it's like the internet. Your router may claim 5300Mbps but if your internet is only 75Mbps that is all you are going to get. I guess our preferences grow with time. I got my first car cell phone in 1984 and my first hand held cell phone a couple of years later. The size, quality and features amazed me at the time but would be deplorable today. I get a lot of pleasure out of my multi-way setup today, including the split second delay. In fact the split second delay reminds me every time how smart I am ( ) setting this up. In short, I get tremendous pleasure of what what I can today with home automation but I also realize that my expectations will keep increasing. The tweaking and improving is fun for many of us. What I really look forward to is for home automation to be comprehensible for non-techies, for example an Administrative Console that is intuitive enough for my better half. Right now I am proud just for getting her to use Google Home for "OK Google Open the Curtains" and " OK Google what is the weather" ..............
stusviews Posted February 5, 2018 Posted February 5, 2018 Speed matters (to me). I can create a scene or a program using identical Insteon devices. The scene is always noticeably quicker. I expect performance that rivals a standard wired switch. Scenes are a close as I can get. Programs are not nearly that quick.
asbril Posted February 5, 2018 Posted February 5, 2018 Speed matters (to me). I can create a scene or a program using identical Insteon devices. The scene is always noticeably quicker. I expect performance that rivals a standard wired switch. Scenes are a close as I can get. Programs are not nearly that quick. Interesting... I have my 3 bathroom lights in a program. After reading your post I created a scene. I was not able to discern a difference in speed but the scene ran correctly about 2 out of 3 times while the program always runs correctly. This may be a Zwave thing as I believe that ISY scenes were primarily for Insteon. For the record, in the scene I used Command / All ON for all 3 lights and light 1 as controller and the other 2 as responders.
lilyoyo1 Posted February 5, 2018 Posted February 5, 2018 I guess our preferences grow with time. I got my first car cell phone in 1984 and my first hand held cell phone a couple of years later. The size, quality and features amazed me at the time but would be deplorable today. I get a lot of pleasure out of my multi-way setup today, including the split second delay. In fact the split second delay reminds me every time how smart I am ( ) setting this up. In short, I get tremendous pleasure of what what I can today with home automation but I also realize that my expectations will keep increasing. The tweaking and improving is fun for many of us. What I really look forward to is for home automation to be comprehensible for non-techies, for example an Administrative Console that is intuitive enough for my better half. Right now I am proud just for getting her to use Google Home for "OK Google Open the Curtains" and " OK Google what is the weather" .............. You are correct. It is user preference and our preferences change over time. Me personally, I prefer my technologies to move me forward not backwards in capabilities.
stusviews Posted February 5, 2018 Posted February 5, 2018 Normally, if a scene is not reliable, then there's a communication problem. But I don't have enough Z-Wave experience to troubleshoot why the scene is not 100% reliable (it should be). Also, it doesn't make sense that a scene is not faster than a program. Once a scene is created, then the ISY is not used nor needed at all. The signal is directly between devices. A program requires processing by the ISY compiler. Z-Wave scenes may be different.
asbril Posted February 6, 2018 Posted February 6, 2018 You are correct. It is user preference and our preferences change over time. Me personally, I prefer my technologies to move me forward not backwards in capabilities. probably the case for all of us
asbril Posted February 6, 2018 Posted February 6, 2018 Normally, if a scene is not reliable, then there's a communication problem. But I don't have enough Z-Wave experience to troubleshoot why the scene is not 100% reliable (it should be). Also, it doesn't make sense that a scene is not faster than a program. Once a scene is created, then the ISY is not used nor needed at all. The signal is directly between devices. A program requires processing by the ISY compiler. Z-Wave scenes may be different. This may be a plus of Insteon over Zwave. As I mentioned, the delay (of the program) is so small that it is no bother to me whatsoever.
larryllix Posted February 6, 2018 Posted February 6, 2018 I have found speed delays are never the problem of ISY programs. The delays are the Insteon protocol waiting for the last device to echo ts ACK/NAK and the three other hops from other devices the protocol has to wait for. You are not going to perceive much delay from a near GHz performance CPU. I ran many devices on X10 year back from a 40MHz '486 computer without any big delay problems. ISY is at least 150 times as fast as that old 8 bit CPU. Insteon scenes avoid some of that protocol bog down. Brightness ramping can help some of that delay, making it less perceptible.
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